Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
Bulletin Board
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Is it time to stop "being nice?"
Sherri, most readers aren't shy about contacting their favorite authors via GR messaging. That's how it should be done. Authors that comment on reviews never help themselves. If the review was bad, they can't say anything that will make them look good. If the review was positive, they can scare off readers by "hovering."
Jen wrote: "Sherri, most readers aren't shy about contacting their favorite authors via GR messaging. That's how it should be done. Authors that comment on reviews never help themselves. If the review was bad,..."
that beautifully and perfectly explained
exactly what i was thinking
that beautifully and perfectly explained
exactly what i was thinking
Jen wrote: "Sherri, most readers aren't shy about contacting their favorite authors via GR messaging. That's how it should be done. Authors that comment on reviews never help themselves. If the review was bad,..."My experience has been the opposite. Most of the time when I've commented, answering a reviewer question, the reviewer has been thrilled and there have often been additional comments by their followers. I've also found that many won't take the step to message an author they admire because they are either shy or they feel they are overstepping. In fact, most readers who have messaged me tend to begin their correspondence with an apology.
Linda wrote: "One of the difficulties reviewers face, of course, is the reality of the backlash. Most reviewers don't have an emotional attachment to their reviews to the extent that (some) authors do to their ..."Perfectly said, Linda!
If we're all tired of the massive amounts of crap out there, we all have to work together to promote the good, and label the bad. Readers are tired of wading through the slush pile for decent books!
As for author bullying? Well, I'm still trying to figure that out...
Sarah wrote: "that beautifully and perfectly explained exactly what i was thinking..."Thank you!
Linda wrote: "When authors whine about wanting feedback from readers they often don't realize that most readers are not qualified to be editors. And that's not a put-down of readers by any means. Readers aren't expected to be editors; they're expected to be readers.@Lisa -- I don't think reviews have to be critiques at all. Again, readers aren't editors. If a reader's review is "I'm not sure what it was about this book that I didn't like, but I just couldn't get into it," that's not a critique, but it's certainly valid. It's valid for her, for her friends, for those who follow her reviews. It doesn't have to be a critique for the author."
I would agree with that too, Linda. An opinion is fine. A statement of fact that you did not like a book does not have to be couched in professional terms to be valid because it is a personal and subjective opinion. Not everyone likes the same books. To attack someone for a statement of opinion that is valid for her is both disrespectful and ultimately futile.
Sherri wrote: "My experience has been the opposite. Most of the time when I've commented, answering a reviewer question, the reviewer has been thrilled and there have often been additional comments by their followers. I've also found that many won't take the step to message an author they admire because they are either shy or they feel they are overstepping. In fact, most readers who have messaged me tend to begin their correspondence with an apology."I'm glad your experiences have been positive. I was merely relating what many readers have told me. I saw an author on Amazon who commented on every single one of her reviews (sometimes with thanks, sometimes with reasoning to defend their critiques), and it freaked me out. I will never read this author, and I'd sure never review her work publicly.
Lisa wrote: "Linda wrote: "When authors whine about wanting feedback from readers they often don't realize that most readers are not qualified to be editors. And that's not a put-down of readers by any means. R..."
exactly
exactly
Linda wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Posted by an author who doesn't want to post negative reviews for fear of getting a negative review in r..."
i think that is so sad that she felt that way
you shouldn't have to worry about "Bullying" for lack of a better word, on your own personal feelings.
it's just wrong
so your hurt, you have to hurt someone else to feel better
disgraceful.
i only had on my comment once, on a thread from the author not on my review. she was rude but i let it go
Posted by an author who doesn't want to post negative reviews for fear of getting a negative review in r..."
i think that is so sad that she felt that way
you shouldn't have to worry about "Bullying" for lack of a better word, on your own personal feelings.
it's just wrong
so your hurt, you have to hurt someone else to feel better
disgraceful.
i only had on my comment once, on a thread from the author not on my review. she was rude but i let it go
Jen wrote: "Sherri wrote: "My experience has been the opposite. Most of the time when I've commented, answering a reviewer question, the reviewer has been thrilled and there have often been additional comments..."Yes, I've seen authors who do that as well. Most have told me (the ones that are saying thank you) are doing so because they are grateful someone took the time to review their book. I happen to agree that it's a bit much. While I tend to read most of my reviews, I only respond to those who ask me a specific question. If they are just speculating about something, I leave it for other readers to discuss and hash out.
But I also might add that there isn't really a 'how to' manual for authors. I've taken many new authors under my wing so to speak and given them advice on how to handle marketing and reviews, especially negative ones. Recently I had to give one some very harsh words about NOT responding to some negative feedback she was getting. She kept trying to 'defend herself' and I had to tell her flat out to stop. All it does is make things worse.
Linda wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...Posted by an author who doesn't want to post negative reviews for fear of getting a negative review in r..."
As I said in my original comment, I'm one of the few authors that will post negative reviews. Most won't for this exact reason. It's a sad, but true fact.
Linda wrote: "Jen wrote: "As for author bullying? Well, I'm still trying to figure that out......"In my best Bert Lahr imitation, "Lemme at 'em." GRRRRRR......"
LOL
I think maybe the worst thing a reader can do when faced with a bullying author is to respond. On GR, anyway, mods should be contacted, or GR staff. They are here for a reason, and too often these things get completely out of control, fast.
On Amazon, readers need friends. Those willing to contact management. The more customers who complain, the faster action will be taken.
It's a thought, anyhow...
Personally, if I see an author bullying someone (anyone), I get on the horn FAST, because every reader has a stake in this game. It's our right to review.
Linda wrote: "Sherri wrote: "She kept trying to 'defend herself' and I had to tell her flat out to stop. All it does is make things worse...."And that was some of the very best advice she could have received. ..."
LOL. Yes, mine probably would be as well. My beta would be happy if I stopped reading reviews since she's the one that gets to listen to me rant about them. ;)
And yes, she did listen. Finally. This, of course was after she let the stress send her into premature labor (she was 8 months pregnant).
Sherri,It's a dangerous path, but the choice is ultimately yours. As a reader, though, I do appreciate you cautioning other authors about their interactions with reviewers.
Sherri wrote: "Linda wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...Posted by an author who doesn't want to post negative reviews for fear of getting a negati..."
I am an author who also posts negative reviews. ;)
And Linda is right, there are a few times where you get crap for it but ultimately I think it is important for authors to learn how to separate their reading hats and their writing hats.
I don't remember who, now, but a blogger said once that it takes more than skill to be an author. You should also have the right mindset. Some people aren't cut out for the life of a published author. It takes thick skin to face the kind of attention you are asking for when you put your work out there for public consumption.Or something like that...
Nenia wrote: "Sherri wrote: "Linda wrote: "https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...Posted by an author who doesn't want to post negative reviews for fear of g..."
I completely agree. Some authors just aren't willing to take that chance.
Oh yeah. You have to learn to ignore people when they say mean things about you. And not cry
Jen wrote: "I don't remember who, now, but a blogger said once that it takes more than skill to be an author. You should also have the right mindset. Some people aren't cut out for the life of a published auth..."Yes, it does. Unfortunately, most don't realize that until after their work is already out there.
Linda wrote: "Those who take the author's feelings into consideration, who respect the work that goes into writing a book, you're appreciated, but only to the extent that you're honest about it. If you love reading, if you enjoy well-crafted stories and well-written prose, you, too, have a stake in this venture."If you want to consider the feelings of the author, you can do so by complimenting them by finishing a book. They shouldn't have published it straight away without having it critiqued and edited and polished, but still, writing a couple of hundred pages can still be acknowledged as an achievement.
Most, if not all, of the issues I comment on when writing my negative reviews could've been prevented if the author had the patience to get critique/feedback and polish their work until it reached a professional standard, but if someone shoves a 'book' under my nose that I consider no more than a rough draft, I tend to consider my own feelings before that of the author.
Blatantly disrespecting readers by knowingly publishing drafts is inexcusable. And if it's unknowingly published prematurely (as in, the author didn't know better), I'm happy to point out the blatant disregard in that aspect.
Nenia wrote: "Oh yeah. You have to learn to ignore people when they say mean things about you. And not cry wolf moderator, because frankly, 99.9% the time, "SOMEONE WAS MEAN TO ME ON THE INTERNETS!!!1" isn't goi..."HAHAHA
Nenia wrote: "Oh yeah. You have to learn to ignore people when they say mean things about you. And not cry wolf moderator, because frankly, 99.9% the time, "SOMEONE WAS MEAN TO ME ON THE INTERNETS!!!1" isn't goi..."I'm sure you didn't mean this that way, but you reminded me of a recent experience in which I watched an author ridicule a reader because she was being a "crybaby." Until we demand professionalism for authors, and stop tolerating abuse, bad behavior will not stop.
As a Moderator of my own group, I'm happy to intervene when someone has been hurt or offended. I've lost several members from my interference, and will likely lose more in the future, because I'm interested in having adult conversations with other adults, not resorting to name calling and belittling...
Not every reader wants cheap and free. Those of us who appreciate a well-crafted story are willing to pay for it. We EXPECT to pay for it.No, the answers aren't easy, but I do think they should be considered. Nothing changes until people work to enact that change. Making a policy to review widely and honestly is a step in the right direction. Reporting unacceptable behavior will never be a bad thing. And those who behave appropriately, who work at their craft, and respect their audience WILL find an audience. It might take time, but it will be worth it.
This whole topic has me wondering just how big of an issue this is. I mean, out of every 10 less than stellar reviews you post how many of those do you have authors coming back and commenting/defending themselves?
Jen wrote: "Nenia wrote: "Oh yeah. You have to learn to ignore people when they say mean things about you. And not cry wolf moderator, because frankly, 99.9% the time, "SOMEONE WAS MEAN TO ME ON THE INTERNETS!..."I was talking more about authors and their tendency to report negative reviews to get them removed, because they are "bullying." I am sorry if I indicated otherwise.
Been a long day, and that comment really touched a nerve... My bad.
If a reader goes off on an absolute tirade in a review is it considered a bad review or inappropriate? I say it's up to opinion because after all some opinions will try to dominate others.
When I write reviews, I attempt to be polite. I will not shy away from saying what is wrong with a book, but there is a world of difference between "The development of the characters was weak and I didn't understand why Joan was angry at Paul" and "God this book SUCKS! Your people make no sense and sound like (insert insult)." Honest and thorough criticism does not need to be cruel.
Annie wrote: "I do think that reviewers should be respectful not only because of the authors but because of the fans of the book. For every person like you who disliked a book, there is a person who liked the book. And who wants to see hate/dislike for a book they enjoyed?" Some of my all-time favorite books have scathing one star reviews, including negative reviews from friends here, people whose opinions I respect. Why should that bother me? It's okay for them to be wrong sometimes. ;-)
I think it's silly when authors talk about books as their "babies." It would be even sillier for me to consider their books my babies.
As a reader and reviewer, I've got my own criteria on rating books. I don't like the rating system on Amazon or Goodreads. YOU either love/like/hate the book. If I see problems with the book, I will note this in my review, respectfully. The way I see it: Everyone has their own opinion about something. Different strokes for different folks. If an author doesn't like my review they can address it with me, as long as, they do it respectfully. If not, I will not argue. I have better things to do than argue. I always write a rough draft of all my reviews. I think if there was a simple criteria for readers and authors that would help all those involved. I know that this is wishful thinking on my part, because there will always be that someone that will rebuke the system. What do any of you think of this?
Justin wrote: "If a reader goes off on an absolute tirade in a review is it considered a bad review or inappropriate? I say it's up to opinion because after all some opinions will try to dominate others."Readers going off on tirades would qualify as both a bad review and inappropriate. Even so, authors are better off ignoring this. Don't rise to the bait. Someone saying, "This author is a jackass, and his book is dumb," won't convince anyone NOT to buy your novel.
Justin wrote: "I think there is a difference between a 'bad review' and 'being harsh and hurtful' the issue is knowing where the line is. I think if someone didnt enjoy a book and gave it 1 star they can be hones..."Yeah. I agree with this. I think it's fine, and probably helpful, to share a negative response to a book. But I sometimes get the sense that some people actually enjoy tearing a book to shreds.
I also don't really get this whole idea that we're lacking in negative reviews here. I see a lot of one and two star reviews. I think there'd be more of a concern if this place was full of mostly only 4-5 star reviews.
I think some of us might try to be gentle rather than harsh...but I don't think we're giving all books glowing reviews even though we secretly hate them.
Really, really well-put, Linda! I, for one, WILL be following your reviews from here on out...
Yes, there are a lot of one and two star reviews, Dina. But there should be more, given the amount of crap available...
I do think that reviewers should be respectful not only because of the authors but because of the fans of the book. For every person like you who disliked a book, there is a person who liked the book. And who wants to see hate/dislike for a book they enjoyed? I strongly agree with this! Criticism is necessary in this world. It helps us grow. But the truth is, unless you're very strong, it's going to hurt. So why make it even more painful than it needs to be?
It's like vaccines. We need them. But should we purposely make the needle extra painful?
And yes...if someone is very insulting towards a book, they are also insulting the fans.
That doesn't mean though that we have to smile and pretend we like everything. We can be critical, but not horrific.
If an author on GR goes into meltdown, they should be banned temporarily until they regain their senses. Sure, the irate authors might feel persecuted or bullied or whatever, but other authors will think twice about having similar meltdowns. Or they have their meltdown in private without access to a keyboard. I can't say this seems like a bad idea. It might be helpful?
Or...I forgot who said it...but saw it while skimming/reading. Stop allowing people to comment on their own reviews. Although I guess people could attack reviewers in another way.
That's the thing about the internet. People get attacked. Not just people writing book reviews. There are people who can't tolerate opinions that differ from their own and they get nasty.
Justin wrote: "If a reader goes off on an absolute tirade in a review is it considered a bad review or inappropriate? I say it's up to opinion because after all some opinions will try to dominate others."If a review violates a site's terms of service (containing hate speech, for example), then it should be reported to support. Otherwise, it's probably not worth spending too much time wondering if it's "appropriate" or not. Different reviewers have different styles just as different writers have different styles. There are some books that go too far for me, so I don't read them. The same goes for reviews.
I think you have to trust readers to know what to do with what's out there, as difficult as that may be. I have tremendous respect for people like Linda Hilton and Nenia in this thread, who manage to stay composed and professional when receiving nasty retaliatory reviews of their books for reasons that have nothing to do with the books themselves (as well as even nastier targeting by STGRB). I have seen them receive comments that are truly unfair. But I think it's also usually more than obvious what is going on. They trust readers to know the difference.
I can't imagine that's easy, and I can see why some authors wouldn't want to take that risk by writing negative reviews. The more important lesson, though, is to give readers some credit. Sure, there are idiots out there, but I think most people aren't going to give too much credence to the barely coherent nasty one star one-liner (or the overly effusive five star one). If anything, a measured, civil, well-reasoned takedown is probably much more damaging.
Dina wrote: "...I also don't really get this whole idea that we're lacking in negative reviews here. I see a lot of one and two star reviews. I think there'd be more of a concern if this place was full of mostly only 4-5 star reviews..."I started a thread not long ago complaining about too many 5* ratings and I still stand by that. I've seen very few low ratings.
I agree with the comments made here. If we want to be able to read books, not trash, then we need to put ourselves out there and review books honestly. Too many writers are producing garbage and then expecting readers to stroke their egos. The only way we will put a stop to the constant production of trash is to make sure our voice is heard and honest reviews are written on everything we read.
The writers need to realize they are self-employed and now a business. What their customers (readers) say about the product is none of their business. Those reviews are for other readers, not the writers.
If writers cannot accept bad reviews - they're in the wrong business.
I agree. I'm a self published author, and I want to know what people truly think of my writing!But, if I may, what about professionally published works that don't deserve to be professionally published? Ie. overwhelming spelling/grammatical mistakes.
Linda wrote: " I just think too many really good, critical reviewers are guilted into not being critical enough, and that's how all the crap gets through."I agree completely. Let's take the gloves off and create an atmosphere that demands quality books. If we tolerate trash - that is what we'll get.
If we're going to call indies on spelling and grammar issues (I'm not talking three or four in a book, but those that have them to an overwhelming extent) why shouldn't we call the traditionally published authors on it?A book is a book, and the price gap has narrowed. Personally, I don't care who published a book. I care if the work appears to be unedited.
Yes! I'm reading a book now with ridiculous mistakes. I don't even think it was published; messing up tenses/characters/spelling...
Christine, Linda, Sarah, pretty much everyone who stopped by...You've made me very happy tonight :)
Emma wrote: "Yes! I'm reading a book now with ridiculous mistakes. I don't even think it was published; messing up tenses/characters/spelling..."Readers need warnings for these things...
I meant edited. Not published. I don't think it was edited before being published.
Emma wrote: "...But, if I may, what about professionally published works that don't deserve to be professionally published? Ie. overwhelming spelling/grammatical mistakes.I've heard this argument before and I have trouble accepting that a major publisher didn't use the editors they have on staff. A few errors is always possible, but I don't buy that it's become the norm.
Back to the point - if we do not provide honest reviews the quality of ALL books will be compromised.
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I mean some authors throw a book up on Amazon then expect readers to pay for the privilege of providing the sort of feedback that critique partners and beta..."
so true
i have seen this happen a lot