Romance Writers & Readers discussion
Writing Romance
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Romance, Characters & the Weakness of Plot
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Hmm, well for me when I'm reading I actually need a good balance of engaging characters and an engaging plot, I can't properly enjoy a story without both. And when I write I try to get a balance of each. I think the characters should compliment the story and that the story should compliment the characters, I don't see them as seperate entities but as co-exsisting entities that both serve a purpose. I actually don't need to like a character to root for them or want to read about them. And "too-stupid-to-live" people actually exist in real life. There are plenty of people doing stupid things all the time. I have no problem with a character being stupid, or sensible, or any combination of, so long as whatever they are doing is true to their character.
And I think that for me is the issue, sometimes characters don't stay true to themselves, and so its hard to care about them or what they're going through. That being said I think the plot should push them to think about who they are and who they want to be and challenge them to change and grow and develop.
Look forward to reading other people's thought!
Jane wrote: "And too-stupid-to-live" people actually exist in real life. There are plenty of people doing stupid things all the time."So true, this statement. So having these kinds of people in the story can make the story more real.
I care about the plot. I care about the characters. It's merging these two together and making a great story, which can be difficult. I do tend to find writing contemporary romance harder because you are just writing about day-to-day normal stuff. How do you make that exciting, to make that reader keep turning the pages? I think it's a delicate balance between a well-developed character and an interesting plot. And when you think about it, aren't most people's lives considered "boring" when in reality they probably have a lot going on that us outside people don't know about. Behind closed doors. We just don't know the little things going on behind closed doors with people. What are their secrets? Why are they having a bad day yet putting on a smile for the rest of us? I'd say this is all creating a character with an interesting plot. As long as you portray it well.
I find writing romantic suspense a lot easier. Why? Because of the plot. I have a mystery to solve. A lot of the times I'm trying to solve it with my characters. Whodunnit? Who is the killer? So for me, plot is very, very important here. Doesn't mean I neglect my characters, because they are just as important. They gotta find the killer somehow and they can't if they're idiots. hehehe. Perhaps they struggle though because something happened to them at some point. Maybe they've gotten too close to a victim and can't concentrate. Again, I think it's merging plot and character together very carefully.
I don't mind reading the typical tropes in romance, even if they are borderline the same as the last book I read. Reading, most of the time, is to escape into another world. Just for me to enjoy another "person's" life for a little while. So it's cliche. That's okay. My life can get busy and stressful with everyday stuff, I don't want to work too hard sometimes reading a story, working my brain when I just want to relax and enjoy. Give me that trapped-in-a-snowstorm story...and throw in a serial killer just make the plot a little more interesting. How can they survive the night? lol
I love romance but the one thing that will set my teeth on edge is when the writer throws ridiculous obstacles in the path of the hero and heroine. And by ridiculous I mean reasons that don't make emotional sense. For example, a woman can't believe the guy likes him because he is soooo dreamy and no matter *what* he freakin does she tells herself it must be for some other reason. Ugh. Or when a problem could be easily solved if the couple would just blurt out the secret or the reason or the whatever. And sometimes these problems go on for many chapters because the writer doesn't know how to introduce organic conflict.
With romance it's all about internal conflict. Nothing happens in On Dublin's Street but I LOVE it because the heroine's internal conflict captivated me from the first page. As long as you have that, an external plot is merely window dressing.
Alexis wrote: "With romance it's all about internal conflict. Nothing happens in On Dublin's Street but I LOVE it because the heroine's internal conflict captivated me from the first page. As long as you have tha..."I really liked that book. I wanted to love it but the lead was one click more alpha than I was comfy with. Their chemistry was amazing, though.
Tara wrote: "Alexis wrote: "With romance it's all about internal conflict. Nothing happens in On Dublin's Street but I LOVE it because the heroine's internal conflict captivated me from the first page. As long ..."Yes, I undestand completely. When he forced the heroine to put her hair up, I rolled my eyes so hard lol.
Alexis wrote: "Tara wrote: "Alexis wrote: "With romance it's all about internal conflict. Nothing happens in On Dublin's Street but I LOVE it because the heroine's internal conflict captivated me from the first p..."Lol that's right! And the desk sex that hurt her legs and back and he knew and didn't care...not cool. Well, at least she (view spoiler)
Mod
+1 On Dublin's Street except...
Dude needed one more click of alpha for me LMAO!! No, really, he did.
I read a ton of dark romance/erotica centered on abduction (yeah, yeah, don't judge me haha) where if you look at the story, not all that much actually happens. I mean, the chick's held hostage and stuck in one place for most of the "plot", eh?
But, like Miss Alexis, internal conflict is my jam. I love the emotional rollercoaster, if done well. I'm also a fan of very self-aware heroines (I realize that TSTL people exist in real life too but yeah, I can't read it, or live it LOL). For example, a captive main who knows she's starting to fall for her abductor but realizes it can't be healthy? I get that. A main who falls head-over-heels because his eyes are just so pretty when he tosses her in the trunk of his car? Just kill me. Or kill her. Yep. Kill her XD
Oh, I also dig a bit of Stockholm once in a while, but even that takes some time to develop. Can't be instant *shrugs*
Sorry, I'm rambling. Great topic!
Hugs,
Ann
Miss Annie what is TSTL?? "As he tosses her into the trunk of his car" = I would do anything to convince you to write a satirical comedy or maybe blog!
Mod
TSTL = too stupid to live hahaha!!
Hmmm. Lemme kill off Tom this week...umm...Tom's story this week and I shall give ya a car-trunk-abduction for flash fic the week after ^_~
Big hugs,
Ann
EDIT: Typing non-English again. Ugh.
Annie wrote: "@Miss Tara: Happy Thanksgiving, ma'am!! **muahhh**TSTL = too stupid to live hahaha!!
Hmmm. Lemme kill off Tom this week...umm...Tom's story this week's flash fic and I shall give ya a car-trunk-..."
*sighs contentedly...order loaded nachos to split with Mistress A*
Mod
*grabs the cheesiest nacho*
I approve.
Annie wrote: "Mistress A sounds so much naughtier. *grabs the cheesiest nacho*
I approve."
<3
I think I'd really have to cosign on what Jane said. Romance for the sake of itself is great, but so is a really engaging plot. I suppose it really does depend which kind of romance you're reading too and what you feel like reading in the moment. The tropes are great because it's why we call them guilty pleasures, we look for specific end results. But you can't deny that a really absorbing storyline that goes somewhere is a really good thing.Also...I think it's okay to read about characters you hate. I'm glad I'm not the only one hehe. I guess it depends how stupid the stupid person is though....there are limits...
Mod
I'm not a fan of TSTL, though. I prefer stubborn to a fault characters...
*smiles wide*
But, yep. There are totally limits LMAO!!
I've had MS rejected by publishers because the main character wasn't likeable enough... but she's not SUPPOSED to be likeable. She's SUPPOSED to be a right b*tch, who learns to be likeable. And romance novels with loads of character development and paper thin plots are the stuff of Sunday arvo at the beach reads - all fluff, no substance. It's like eating McDonalds - fun every now and then, but if you lived on a diet of it, you'd die (in this case, a literary death :-) )
There are PLENTY of romance novels with both character and plot development - enough so that you can leave the Harlequins where they belong (in your beach bag waiting for that sunny Sunday)
And as for romance tropes, there are a gazillion of them, but those of us who read romance lots see the same ones over and over and over - I'm stunned by the number of chicks who fall pregnant on one night stands... it's amazing... FOR GOODNESS SAKE ROMANCE WRITERS! THERE ARE A BUNCH OF TROPES! PLEASE GO FIND AN UNDERUTILISED ONE AND WRITE IT!!!
(Says Bree, who is writing a marriage of convenience even as we speak ;-) )
Mod
Oh, crap.
*looks at my paper thin plot*
*shrugs*
*eats more McDick's*
Seriously, though, I think it's tough to pinpoint the right "balance" cuz readers all dig different stuff, eh? Personally, I'm all about the feels so if there's a fantastic plot but the characters just don't keep my attention...
*deletes book off Kindle*
Tee hee.
I'm a fan of writing what you want. Like, don't try to fit into or climb out of any boxes. Just trust your instincts, ya know?
Like Annie, I'm a fan of writing and reading what you want. I was hooked on Harlequins until they became boring for me...I call them my mindless reading as you don't have to think because you know the story before you start. The only difference is the names and the places.As to boxes, I can't seem to find one to stay in for any length of time. Like my cat, I keep changing to keep things interesting. I write suspense, sweet romances, urban romance, contemporary romances....the only common theme is romance, hence my tag of writing "Romances by a Lady Biker". My heroines go from young to over 50. My men aren't always big and brawny. A couple are actually sort of wimpy like you find in real life...you know....the kind you marry and love because they're mad about you and show it.
I love reading books which are different, tiring quickly of reading the same old thing. It explains why my bookshelves (real and virtual) are filled with books from all genres. Variety keeps the mind active, so why can't a writer have variety in what they write? I can't imagine writing a series of ten books...three or four maybe. I'd be bored to death of the characters. (explains why I put down the Outlander series at book five...I was tired of the characters and they were no longer fresh and interesting to me. It's also the reason I watch very little TV...most of the series become boring after the first season.)
Yes, Harlequins have their place as do the murder mystery, the snowstorm murder, the adventures of Crocodile Dundee, the outer space stories, the vampires, the Harry Potters, etc. So...write and read what you want and branding be dam*ed.
I'd be interested in your novels where the heroine is over 50 as my debut novel features a hero and heroine over 50 and those are hard to come by. And I agree on the branding or lack therof being better.
Bree wrote: "I've had MS rejected by publishers because the main character wasn't likeable enough... but she's not SUPPOSED to be likeable. She's SUPPOSED to be a right b*tch, who learns to be likeable. And r..."
Geez, kudos to you for writing an unlikeable heroine. They just don't get enough love.
Sometimes tropes can be made fresh. At least if you manage to use a trope in a context that's rarely or never done. It's really hard to avoid them though. We're inundated with them from birth.
ETA: LOL totally forgot I posted in this thread before.
Yay Annie *high five*
Well the thing is I read a book recently that I was surprised to see had mediocre ratings here on Goodreads. A lot of people said they just hated the main character. But I was like...yeah, so? Were we supposed to like Jay Gatsby or Daisy? No one gives that 3 stars.
I've been told my Civil War romance has an unlikeable heroine. But I agree, you can't show any character development if she is all miss sweetheart all the way along. Like most things depends on how the trope is used. Example on the pregnancy deal... yes often times it is like ok...birth control has been around how long? But I use an unplanned pregnancy in one of my novels BUT with a logical reason, and it isn't that they were so caught up in the moment that they forgot.
It is when tropes are thrown in just because the writer is too lazy to be creative that it loses credibility.
We all know the general outline of romance and the usual tropes. We read to see how well the tropes are used in the plot. That is the art of it.
Line from my novel explains my theory... In my heroine's voice mind you...
"Happily ever after is how all romance novels end, readers know this, yet we read them anyway. The ancient Greeks knew the myths, yet they watched Greek drama, to see how well the legends were spun. There isn’t a perfect way to tell the tale. If there were, there would be only one romance novel to read. There are thousands of ways that happily ever after can happen, and all of them are, in the end, perfect."
Or at least we hope they are.
I wouldn't necessarily say any writer is too lazy to be creative. I'm sure, whatever trope they used, had a reason. It takes time and energy, whether it's a story people will enjoy, for that person to create that story. I will have to agree with some of the comments that Harlequin novels are predictable and use the same tropes over and over. I like that. I can be a Harlequin junkie at times. I can also read other novels that make me think, make me devoted into the story so much it's hard to resurface. Sometimes I just need that simple, easy read from Harlequin. I don't think there's any thing wrong with that. And Harlequin is loved by many so lots of people enjoy it as well.
Maybe lazy was the wrong word. Maybe it is what their publisher expects as was discussed above.Everyone enjoys something different...which is good.
Mod
Personally, I think it's a bit meh (that's my unimpressed sound tee hee) to try and define what "good" writing is. I grew out of Harlequins when I was 9 or 10 (?) and no, I have zero interest in either reading or writing them. But that doesn't change the fact that I would totally buy stake shares in the company, eh? I mean, I ain't quite THAT dumb. Really, I'm ain't.
Anyhoo, it's like saying Mazdas make crap cars (don't you dare tell me my babies are crap!! LOL) just cuz you wouldn't drive one. Nah, they make awesome vehicles. Just not for everyone. And they still make a gob of money, right?
Imho, people (in general) are naturally inclined to "discredit" anything outside of their norm. I mean, that's just human nature. But I believe it's all about doing the best at whatever we choose to do as opposed to comparing apples and oranges.
I think I stopped making sense again LMAO!! Errr, Happy Friday? XD
EDIT: Holy, typing fail, Batman! Ugh.
Annie, you made perfect sense. For me, the Harlequins became boring. If I want mindless reading where I know the story minus the names, I'll read one. Yes, they make money, but I wouldn't be able to write more than one or two without losing total interest in writing.I love Mazdas...and Corvettes, Hondas, Harleys, Ford pick-ups, ATVs, snowmobiles, rollerskates....well you get the idea, I'm sure. Why limit what you do just because someone wants you to only drive a Prius when you love motorcycles or a big 4x4.
Why be bleh when you can have variety and enjoy things? I discredit nothing and enjoy much. I may not like certain types of books but other love them. Just think of how boring things would be if we were all the same...which explains why I'll not be picked up by a publishing house, ..I don't fit into a specific mold. I refuse to be stuffed into a box where I can't follow my creativity no matter where it takes me be it fantasy, historical or contemporary...reading and writing should be fun. Profit is nice but if you don't enjoy what you are doing....why are you doing it? I don't like repetition so why would I box myself into one type of book to suit a publisher. Branding? Mine is that I'm a lady biker who writes romances....all types of romances...that is as much branding as I'll ever get.
I agree with you, Barbara. You have to make your own kind of branding and do what you wanna do. Your writing might suffer if you're not passionate about it. I know I tried to write a story one time geared a certain way and it was horrible. Why? Because my heart wasn't into it. As soon as I stopped and started a new story the way I wanted, it was much easier to write. Nothing wrong with following your heart:)
"For me, Romance (particularly "just" romance) has to have some crazy amazing characters and a vast amount of feels. Cuz there's typically not a holy-moly story to go with it."
Honestly, I'd say she's right. Like, way, WAY right. From what I've seen most romance novels follow very predictable story arcs...and moreover, we as readers are quite comfortable with this.
Come on...with most genres, a too-familiar setup is a turn-off to readers of most genre fiction. For romance readers, it's like comfort food. "OOH! The trapped-in-a-snowstorm situation! I looooooove that story!"
Now don't get me wrong; there's nothing amiss here. Romance readers aren't automatically less sophisticated than other genre fiction readers for loving their tropes. Indeed, in my view they're just more honest about doing so...the plot arcs of most other genre fiction are just as repetitive if one actually looks at them with a critical eye. The readers of it are just more skilled at lying to themselves about how they're reading the same story again and again.
As I've seen what makes or breaks a good romance story is the characters...are the people involved individuals the reader can identify with and care about? Does their situation provoke an emotional response in a reader? Can a reader feel for their situation?
Romance just might be the most honest genre of fiction. It dares to say that people are the most important part of a story, and the plot is just window dressing so we can talk about humanity in a digestible way. And that's very human. When it comes to stories, nobody cheers for the plot. They cheer for people.
So. With all that in mind, how do we as writers get our readers to cheer for our fictional lovers the way we want them to? And how do we stop ourselves from caring so much about plot?
(Note: I ask that last question for a good reason. I've read a fair number of romance novels which turned me off because a lead character did something "To Satisfy The Plot" at the expense of who they were, and I was totally turned off from the story because of it. I've also seen a lot of reviewers who've complained about "Too-Stupid-To-Live" characters, which amounts to the same problem.)