The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The reason people don't get why Catcher in the Rye is important
Monty J wrote: "Renee wrote: "I've always felt trapped at what passes for home. And so, I dream of living with in a yurt (with an outdoor kitchen, I love to cook) in the wilderness, close to water, with a pack o..."
Mmmm. I lived in Inverness for six years. Little bit of heaven. What's the town you refer to, Monty?
Renee, be sure not to erect your yurt in Northern New Mexico; I heard about one that blew away and the neighbors where it landed were none too pleased. Great idea though.
Paul Martin wrote: "Or near the real Inverness - that's also a great place."The NorCal Inverness is a real Inverness too.
Kallie said: "What's the town you refer to, Monty?"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Boh...
It may be on the fringe of Pt. Reyes Station. You take the road out of Inverness (Sir Francis Drake Bl.?) and go straight when the road turns left. I saw a Yurt there, a B&B. Looked charming.
Wow, you actually lived there.
Who was that mad old Russian with the restaurant? He got me drunk one night on some anise-smelling liquer and regaled me and my lady with tales of his skiing exploits. Quite a skiier apparently. Then he disappeared into the restroom before finishing his story. Concerned, we asked someone to check, and he was found asleep, on the toilet apparently.
Vladi's! I think that was the name. Short for Vladimir. A madman.
There are more amazing personalities in and out of West Marin. Bob Dylan, Werner Herzog. Klaus Kinski died in Lagunitas. I could swear I heard Santana playing at a bar in Nicasio one night (I was in the restaurant.) Sean Penn lives up the road. Prince Charles paid a visit to Pt. Reyes Station. It boggles the mind, the creative people that abound there. The Bohemian Grove is a few miles up.
Kallie wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Renee wrote: "I've always felt trapped at what passes for home. And so, I dream of living with in a yurt (with an outdoor kitchen, I love to cook) in the wilderness, close to wate..."
My brother in law lives in Rowe NM, where he has an adobe built in to a Mesa, and a teepee- not many neighbors. He's a physician, simple living! I strive for that.
Monty J wrote: "It may be on the fringe of Pt. Reyes Station. You take the road out of Inverness (Sir Francis Drake Bl.?) and go straight when the road turns left. I saw a Yurt there, a B&B. Looked charming. Wow..."
Sounds wonderful- the mad russian guy.
Kallie wrote: "Paul Martin wrote: "Or near the real Inverness - that's also a great place."The NorCal Inverness is a real Inverness too."
Mehe:)
Monty J wrote: "I know just the place, near Inverness, CA. "I grew up not so far from there, Pleasant Hill.
Monty J wrote: "Who was that mad old Russian with the restaurant? He got me drunk one night on some anise-smelling liquer and regaled me and my lady with tales of his skiing exploits...."Sounds like absinthe!
Very romantic story.
Monty J wrote: "Kallie said: "What's the town you refer to, Monty?"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Boh......"
Vladimir was very weird; for one thing he thought himself really attractive to women. One of my housemates worked at Vladimir's and she said his wife, who did all the cooking, was wonderful and I believe it because her cooking was lifetime memorable. As I recall they were Czech and V's tale, with which he regaled every patron, was of his escape from somewhere on skis.
Monty J wrote: "Kallie said: "What's the town you refer to, Monty?"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Boh......"
And OMG, I encountered Klaus at the Fairfax Cala Supermarket one night and he looked such a haunted fellow -- those eyes -- I felt inspired to write a poem about seeing him there, modeled on Ginsberg's Cala experience in San Francisco. Yes, that area was chock-full of characters, many obscure but locally infamous. While living in Inverness, I worked at a hash pipe factory owned by a Romanoff. One of the sweetest people I've ever known.
Kallie wrote;"And OMG, I encountered Klaus at the Fairfax Cala Supermarket one night and he looked such a haunted fellow -- those eyes -- I felt inspired to write a poem about seeing him there, modeled on Ginsberg's Cala experience in San Francisco. Yes, that area was chock-full of characters, many obscure but locally infamous. While living in Inverness, I worked at a hash pipe factory owned by a Romanoff. One of the sweetest people I've ever known"
Well that sounds really interesting Kallie!
Karen wrote: "Kallie wrote;"And OMG, I encountered Klaus at the Fairfax Cala Supermarket one night and he looked such a haunted fellow -- those eyes -- I felt inspired to write a poem about seeing him there, mo..."
Words cannot express, but I've written poems that try.
Cosmic wrote: "Sounds like absinthe!"Not absinthe, but something like. One free drink sent me spinning (I'm not much of a drinker) and he poured me a second, with a gleam in his eye. I felt like I'd entered some fantasy world. The food was indeed outstanding.
I met someone else who lived there. She was an artist married to a pot dealer. She gardened naked and he had jars of money buried throughout their garden and yard. Kallie, you may have known her, first name begins with "C."
Crazy place, but not as weird as Bolinas: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bol...
Karen wrote: "Kallie wrote;"And OMG, I encountered Klaus at the Fairfax Cala Supermarket one night and he looked such a haunted fellow -- those eyes -- I felt inspired to write a poem about seeing him there, mo..."
Kinksi was an insane genius. I have a collection of five of his films, all made by Herzog. I met Lucas' art director at a Fireman's Barbecue. Also the Muppeteer for Gonzo. I lived four years with the daughter of a part-owner Cala Foods. It became Bell Mkt, now it's something else. Fairfax is booming. I used to give bimonthly readings at Peri's Bar. Will start up again. Lovely people. Art/lit-heads. An amazing creative crowd.
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Sounds like absinthe!"Not absinthe, but something like. One free drink sent me spinning (I'm not much of a drinker) and he poured me a second, with a gleam in his eye. I felt like ..."
The naked gardening sounds familiar but there were a lot of eccentric people in Inverness. The woods provided a haven, you know. Point Reyes was a bit different because all behavior was so visible. In both communities there was plenty of gossip fodder, but viewed as interesting and entertaining rather than judged. Except for the rapist. He was run out of town. His gambit was pretending to read women's tarot cards and palms . . . A lot of those women were very young and naive and wanted to believe the best of people.
Kinski was a marvelous actor, and funny. I never tire of him as Aguirre, or Nosferatu.
Kallie wrote: "Kinski was a marvelous actor, and funny. I never tire of him as Aguirre, or Nosferatu."About every other year I watch the series of all five. Herzog's got an interesting angle on life, honors the unique.
Here's Kinski, for the uninitiated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Ki...
Monty J wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Kinski was a marvelous actor, and funny. I never tire of him as Aguirre, or Nosferatu."About every other year I watch the series of all five. Herzog's got an interesting angle on l..."
Definately a jerk, I didn't really see him as a great actor.
Karen wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Kinski was a marvelous actor, and funny. I never tire of him as Aguirre, or Nosferatu."About every other year I watch the series of all five. Herzog's got an intere..."
I've heard that he he was a lousy family man but there was so much more to him than that, Karen. And I said marvelous, which I distinguish from 'great' (I would have to think about how I distinguish the two). Kinski was a very physical actor; hard to say why that redeems so much for me, but it does. Herzog (a genius I think) found him fascinating for sure. Herzog loves eccentrics, and pushed his actors so hard even Kinski objected. They had a rather hilarious love-hate relationship.
Kallie wrote: "Karen wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Kinski was a marvelous actor, and funny. I never tire of him as Aguirre, or Nosferatu."About every other year I watch the series of all five. Herzog's..."
Well to be fair then, his movies were not my cup of tea, at all. I liked his daughter better.
Edward wrote: "Liked the whole bunch. Thought "Paris, Texas" one of the most underrated movies."That was Wim Wenders. He was interesting too and yes, Nastassia was very good in that, and in "Tess" -- directed by a !@@&*$% more notorious than Klaus.
Edward wrote: "How about Harry Dean Stanton?" Another good character actor, isn't he. And he really gets to work out lately as a villainous Mormon patriarch.
My favorite Herzog is Every Man for Himself and God Against All, which isn't a Kinski film. But his movies with Kinski are great.
Karen wrote: " Holdens character regardless of where we live. For me, the setting was fairly easy to grasp because I had lived near NYC for years. But that's just the setting. :) ...."You are fortunate to have NYC as a reference already in your experiences. For me I had to rely on Wiki to see that THE GRAND ARMY PLAZA was where Holden went to look for the ducks in South Central Park. I am reminded of how Holden says he just hated the word GRAND because it was so phoney. More American got killed in the http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_... which this part of the park is supposed to commemorate.
I am happy for you. But I chose to go further than you and read the books mentioned in the The Catcher in the Rye, look up the history on the people and places mentioned. Believing those people didn't have anything to do with mental illness but perhaps something else.
Since I know that Salinger's life included traumatic event in WW2, I think this would have found a way into his writing. I don't think a writer can write in a vacuum. I don't think he would have to deal with this trauma if he hadn't been drafted into WW2 and witnessed the "Horrors, Oh The Horrors" of war. As far as I can tell you think the book is limited to post traumatic stress disorder, or depression. Great! I think there could be something to that (but it is not the whole story). I think that a teenager that finds alienation in school could certainly relate to Holden.
But to me, after reading the book four or five times in a row I have discovered an allegory. I love the phrases like "phoney" and "that killed me". I like hearing about Holden's views in "the game" and "movies".
Our minds want to make sense out of what we are reading. Salinger used the Iceberg Theory so it reader is forced to be interactive. You don't have to though. You can go with the cliff note version if you want to. But you will probably never learn that Smoke Gets In Your Eyes is playing when Phoebe gets on the carousel. Or that this probably refers to the Glenn Miller's version of the song (it was a little fast and jazzy). Or that this was recorded as a propaganda collection of songs to be played to the Germans. Or that this was the last recording that Glenn Miller and his band would record, because their plane got shot down and they fell in the water...which makes me think about OSS-en-burger, the undertaker that probably just stuffs the bodies in a bag and dumps them in the water.
What is your point of banishing me and my views from this group? Isn't this group inclusive?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McT58k...
Most of all have fun! (Your picture that is on your profile looks like you are angry. I hope not!)
and invited to the Oprah Winfrey Show. That must be the pinnacle of happiness.
Paul Martin wrote: "and invited to the Oprah Winfrey Show. That must be the pinnacle of happiness."
Too funny.
Cosmic wrote;"at is your point of banishing me and my views from this group? Isn't this group inclusive?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McT58k...
Most of all have fun! (Your picture that is on your profile looks like you are angry. I hope not"
I was not bannishing you at all, I was giving my opinion and disagreeing a bit- there was no intention on my part of insulting, bannishing at all. It is also a bit inappropriate to criticize someone's profile picture, especially when the criticism is not accurate.
Paul Martin wrote: "and invited to the Oprah Winfrey Show. That must be the pinnacle of happiness."
ROTFLOL!!!
Cosmic wrote: "Most of all have fun! (Your picture that is on your profile looks like you are angry. I hope not!) "Looking at Karen's photo I don't see anger or anything negative, Cosmic. If she's not smiling, so what? I imagine you mean well, but notice that neither you nor I have posted our photo and risked public, personal remarks about how we look.
Karen wrote: "Cosmic wrote;"my opinion and disagreeing a bit- there was no intention on my part of insulting, bannishing at all. It is also a bit inappropriate to criticize someone's profile picture, especially when the criticism is not accurate. ..."
Very good! Selfie are not always easy to do. I hope you have a great weekend.
Not a selfie (?), so it was easy. Good let's change the subject, please!
Monty J wrote: "Kallie said: "What's the town you refer to, Monty?"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Boh......"
The Bohemian Grove....has to be the galactic epicenter of irony.
Leslie wrote: "The Bohemian Grove....has to be the galactic epicenter of irony. ..."Reminds me that Highland Park, Dallas also names their streets after trees. Elm St. Where JFK was shot.
in Martin Eden he talks about joining that artist/investor group.
Leslie wrote: "The Bohemian Grove....has to be the galactic epicenter of irony. "Well said.
Monty J wrote: "Leslie wrote: "The Bohemian Grove....has to be the galactic epicenter of irony. "Well said."
Looks like they are all there now....take a look...http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemi...
The White Silence
Anyone remember the John Lennon thread? What a trainwreck.
What was it about? Which book was it linked to?
Paul Martin wrote: "What was it about? Which book was it linked to?"
You asked for it.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
You asked for it.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Oh, Stephan again...
Paul Martin wrote: "Oh, Stephan again..."
IKR?
I miss Catherine--she was funny and mostly harmless, at least.
IKR?
I miss Catherine--she was funny and mostly harmless, at least.
Lushr wrote: "Yes, when I read it (as a teen) I though... "Uh yeah... So what?" Everything in there seemed so obvious at the time.But this is a time when teenagers and antisocial thoughts and being different a..."
Did you see this when you read it? I admit it may feel like a totally different book from the teenage angst (emperor's clothes) that you were taught to see in this book. But given the material that Salinger really wanted to say I think we can forgive him. After all he saw people go to the concentration camp just for being a certain race or telling the truth.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
With all of this discussion, I still don't get The Catcher in the Rye. Can somebody explain it to me? I read it 35 years ago at 18 for freshmen literature. You figure I would be primed for this book. The professor thought it was the greatest book he ever read and he wasn't kidding. When he asked me my opinion, I made the mistake and told him the truth. I explained that I just don't get it and Holden needed a swift kick in the pants. I didn't see a tortured soul, only a whiny malcontent. As you can imagine, the semester did not go well. Now don't get me wrong, I understand it is one of the great books of the 20th century and one of the great American novels. I absolutely think it needs to be taught in schools today. I just don't get the book or why it is so important. When it comes to this book, I feel like every one gets the joke, but me. I just don't see it.
To make matters worse, I didn't like On the Road either, although I read that book much later in life and that may be for the young again.
Well written, even I can see that, and still talked about, I just don't see it.
Papaphilly wrote: "...and he wasn't kidding"Good one! It's okay not to like it (not that you need permission), Papaphilly; if it doesn't resonate, it doesn't resonate. It doesn't resonate with me either but, like you, I do recognize that it is well written and makes a meaningful impression. I just happen to get my similar/same equally meaningful impressions elsewhere. I still appreciate discussions about what is important about the story.
Papaphilly wrote: "With all of this discussion, I still don't get The Catcher in the Rye. Can somebody explain it to me? I read it 35 years ago at 18 for freshmen literature. You figure I would be prim..."Here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Papaphilly wrote: "With all of this discussion, I still don't get The Catcher in the Rye. Can somebody explain it to me? I read it 35 years ago at 18 for freshmen literature. You figure I would be prim..."I think that your reaction is exactly the same as mine! I met someone that at least look like he got the "joke" and I couldn't let out do me so I read it again. The second time I saw the carousel that played Smoke Gets In Your Eyes as some kind of allegory or an allusion to the stock market. If we go to war the market goes up. I later after studying the Catcher through the lens of WW2 and movies and books came to understand a different kind of history that the one my teacher taught me.
I have been writing about it here:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
As far as the teenage angst interpretation, that feels secondary and does not explain a lot of the references in the book....like why Holden was interested in the ducks at Central Park South...not any other ducks, just wanted to know where those ducks went. Or why the taxi driver would try to create empathy for the fish. I can't imagine that as a real conversation that could actually take place. And since when went to the elite ivy league schools....and even talked about bird migration in the natural history museum, I don't think that he was looking for information as much as Salinger was trying to say something about WW2 which had a profound effect on him.
Check out my discussion in light of the allusions in the book and see if that doesn't make more sense than the "official" version.
I wouldn't reduce CiTR's complexity to 'teen-age angst" -- a phrase that says nothing about its particular qualities since numerous YA novels ranging from poor to excellent contain teen-age angst. That is a tiresome, reductive and now (if not before) overused phrase.
Kallie wrote: "I wouldn't reduce CiTR's complexity to 'teen-age angst" -- a phrase that says nothing about its particular qualities since numerous YA novels ranging from poor to excellent contain teen-age angst...."Agreed. Teenage angst could refer to all teens, and Holden's experiences were profound and much deeper.
From, of all places, the Urban Dictionary:"Angst, often confused with anxiety, is a transcendent emotion in that it combines the unbearable anguish of life with the hopes of overcoming this seemingly impossible situation. Without the important element of hope, then the emotion is anxiety, not angst. Angst denotes the constant struggle one has with the burdens of life that weighs on the dispossessed and not knowing when the salvation will appear.
An airplane crashes into the side of a remote snow-covered mountain; those passengers that worry about their lives without hopes of survival only face anxiety. In contrast, those passengers who worry about their lives with hopes of survival but do not know when the rescue party will arrive face angst."
"Angst" seems immanently fitting.
For me, the work doesn't need the modifier, "teenage."
Renee wrote: "From, of all places, the Urban Dictionary:"Angst, often confused with anxiety, is a transcendent emotion in that it combines the unbearable anguish of life with the hopes of overcoming this seemi..."
I thought anxiety was more accurate because of the psychiatric definition:
a state of apprehension and psychic tension occurring in some forms of mental disorder, and Holden did end up in the psychiatric hospital.
Sure, Holden feels those things. But he feels and expresses much more. He feels hopeful about really connecting but is disappointed because people aren't real or use his sincerity to try to dominate him, feel good at his expense, etc. And he doesn't just feel the angst or anxiety or disillusionment. He acts. He undertakes a search for meaning.
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More like NE, actually. And I prefer the term "fresh", or even "lively" :)"
A lively, fresh, beautiful cold place.