The reason people don't get why Catcher in the Rye is important

[Kallie]

I just love good old English (or any) swear words. When you think about it, puritanical attitudes are what made the majority of those words, the ones that don't actually relate to religion, 'nasty' to say, especially for a woman. They name natural human body functions. If people and their behavior are sometimes identified with those functions, it's not always fair but often it is. Our language would be less colorful for the lack of them. You think Holden used a lot of 'bad' words, better avoid Henry Miller. And Chaucer.

[Cosmic]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "So why is it bothersome? If it's the "goddam," consider how Holden actually upholds Christian values despite not being a Christian. He understands the true message of Christ as being based on kindness and compassion, and he practices it throughout the book. He understands the apostles let down Jesus all the time in the Bible; he values the charity work of the nuns and donates way more than he can afford to; he sees the Christmas spectacle at Radio City Hall and knows that Jesus would have disliked it. Holden is a true apostle of Christ if you want to think about it in that way, and I don't think that's too much a stretch...he lives in a fallen world, though, and he is corrupted like we all are. Thus he "goddams." But at his moral center, Holden is someone that a truly religious reader should admire for his goodness of heart and the kindness and compassion he practices...." because "kids these days" have always swo..."

I was turned off by Holden's swearing when I first picked up the book. So much so that I didn't thInk it worth my time. Then in bad teenagers of my own. This time I was able to get through the book but since at first I didn't see any "quality" in the book I was still turned off.

I know that you understand that I have a different interpretation of the book, so I won't bore you with that. But I almost felt like the swearing was a way to filter the reader. Although I agree that he embraces Christian values..valuing love instead of using someone, for instance. I also saw in this a book of what Gandhi said "I like your Christ it is your Christians that I have a problem with." He is pretty hard on people that are in positions of influence that are hypocrites. Many "use" religion to get something over on others. It is a cloak. If a religious person can not stand to read these things he also cannot see them in other (should I say, othe Narcissistic Individuals). I just think that he is breaking down people's defense by challenging them. I think teenagers too might be filtering out the "cool" from the "judgmental" when they take on a certain Argo.

[Monty J]

Brooke wrote: "Just finished rereading Destroy All Cars for the umpteenth time and I swear it's the literary descendant of Catcher, only with less cursing and more environmental concerns. It's a li..."

Thanks for the tip. I put it on my list. Sounds interesting.

[Kallie]

Cosmic wrote: "It is a cloak. If a religious person can not stand to read these things he also cannot see them in other (should I say, other Narcissistic Individuals)."

I hope you are including Christians among other "Narcissistic individuals," because they are as likely to fit this ill-defined category as anyone. Otherwise, what on earth do you mean? I don't understand this need to reduce and label people.

[Cosmic]

Kallie wrote: "
I hope you are including Christians among other "Narcissistic individuals," because they are as likely to fit this ill-defined category as anyone. ..."

I was and so was Salinger when he talks about OSS-en-burger Page 16:

"He made a ton of dough in the undertaking parlors. He probably just shoves them in a sack and dumps them in the river... He said he talked to Jesus all the time. Even when he was driving his car. That kills me. I can just see the phony bastard shifting into first gear and asking Jesus to send him a few more stiffs."

[Paperadventures]

Renee wrote: "Or he could be trying to clean up his language and stop mid-word."

That's a great idea!

[Cosmic]

Have any of you looked at The Catcher In The Rye as an Odyssey type story? Troy = Pencey Prep, New York the different islands or encounters of a hero? His coming home like a thief.

I haven't personally thought to much about this, but I have been reading Ulysses and I can see a similarity in the two books.

[Renee E]

One of my lit teachers in high school pointed out that there is a finite number of story "types," the Odyssey being one, and that any story fits into one or more of those categories, so yes, CItR is one of those. (I wish I could remember and rattle off the list, but I guess it's enough to recognize them when I see them)

It can also be characterized, loosely, as a bildungsroman.

Mrs. Lane, at New Hanover HS in Wilmington, was an amazing teacher.

[Petergiaquinta]

Sure, it's an odyssey story. It's a Jesus story, too. But these are archetypes, and I wouldn't spend too much time looking for specific parallels like in Ulysses. That's not what Salinger is doing here.

[Petergiaquinta]

I had a professor who said there were only two stories, a man goes on a journey and a stranger comes to town. He might be right.

[Renee E]

I can see a case for that.

[Paul Martin]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "I had a professor who said there were only two stories, a man goes on a journey and a stranger comes to town. He might be right."

With a very wide definition of "journey", it's not far from the truth.

[Renee E]

No, it isn't, life being a journey and all.

[Renee E]

Then there are the "man comes to town which causes another to go on a journey." ;-)

But thinking about it, man can't come to town without first going on a journey.

So maybe it's all one?

My head hurts, lol.

[Kallie]

Renee wrote: "No, it isn't, life being a journey and all."

Yes. Sometimes the man going and the stranger coming are one and the same.

[Renee E]

Weirdly, The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings came to mind with the man comes to town/man goes on journey business.

[Cosmic]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Sure, it's an odyssey story. It's a Jesus story, too. But these are archetypes, and I wouldn't spend too much time looking for specific parallels like in Ulysses. That's not what Salinger is doing ..."

It is kinda interesting because when Ulysses was first (published?), read the chapter titles from the Odyssey were not given. I am still reading the Odyssey but got sidetracked when you indexed Hamlet in Ulysses.

I am reading J.W. von Goethe (1749–1832). Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship right now. They don't have this book listed on Goodreads...go figure, it is a Harvard Classic but it isn't on Goodreads. It was mentioned at the beginning of chapter 9 and is Goethe views on Hamlet. It is worth taking a look at.

I like what your professor said I will keep it mind. In this case both are true of Holden.

[Renee E]

This is bad, getting this esoteric before noon . . . unless I haven't been to bed yet.

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "Have any of you looked at The Catcher In The Rye as an Odyssey type story?"

I blogged on this some years ago on the now defunct RedRoom.com. Both heroes are on a journey home and experience a series of character-revealing adventures. At the end of the journey, love awaits, love, the ultimate objective. For Ulysses it is his wife, Penelope. For Holden, Phoebe.

I can see similarities with The Wizard of Oz as well. "There's no place like home."

Reminds me of those famous lines from T.S. Elliotts "The Four Quartets":
We shall never cease from exploration,
and the end of all our exploring
will be to arrive where we started
and know the place for the first time.

Every time we leave home, for whatever reason, the ultimate objective is always to return. And when we arrive, the place is familiar but different in some way.

As if we're returning from a time warp, we notice things we had forgotten. We renew our appreciation of loved ones with an invigorating freshness.

Home may seem different, but it is we who have changed. Inevitably, the journey has changed us in some way.

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: "can see similarities with Alice in Wonderland as well. "There's no place like home."

Is this a line from Alice too? I think of the The Wonderful Wizard of Oz when I hear that.

[Cosmic]

Renee wrote: "Weirdly, The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings came to mind with the man comes to town/man goes on journey business."

So what archetype would Hamlet fit? A journey or come to town?

[Paul Martin]

Cosmic wrote: So what archetype would Hamlet fit? A journey or come to town?"

Both. He is summoned home to Denmark, and embarks upon a personal and emotional journey.

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "can see similarities with Alice in Wonderland as well. "There's no place like home."

Is this a line from Alice too? I think of the The Wonderful Wizard of Oz when I ..."

Oops, that's what I meant. (Changed it.)

[Renee E]

Paul Martin wrote: "Cosmic wrote: So what archetype would Hamlet fit? A journey or come to town?"

Both. He is summoned home to Denmark, and embarks upon a personal and emotional journey."

Ever heard of the circumgoround bird? Colloquially known as the kerthunk bird?


It's a small, quick bird that flies, at ever increasing speed, in circles of ever decreasing circumference, until, with a KERTHUNK, it flies up its own ass.

[Petergiaquinta]

And in Hamlet, the Ghost functions as the stranger come to town...it sets into motion the tragedy and sends Hamlet on his emotional/psychological journey.

[Monty J]

Renee wrote: "It's a small, quick bird that flies, at ever increasing speed, in circles of ever decreasing circumference, until, with a KERTHUNK, it flies up its own ass."

Holy crap, ROTFLMAO!

I actually have a picture of this.

It's a ghost image left on a sliding glass door after a mourning dove knocked himself silly. The sound was actually "kerthunk." The image was from the dust in the bird's feathers. I'll fish around, see if I can find it.

[Kallie]

Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Have any of you looked at The Catcher In The Rye as an Odyssey type story?"

I blogged on this some years ago on the now defunct RedRoom.com. Both heroes are on a journey home and ex..."

Some people never find home; that's a story too, if a sad one.

[Karen]

Monty J wrote: "Renee wrote: "It's a small, quick bird that flies, at ever increasing speed, in circles of ever decreasing circumference, until, with a KERTHUNK, it flies up its own ass."

Holy crap, ROTFLMAO!

I ..."

LOL! Renee you are funny. This kerthunking of birds is not a good image for a birdlover. I laughed though.

[Monty J]

Kallie wrote: "Some people never find home; that's a story too, if a sad one."

That's my story, but I'm trying to change it.

I changed schools six times by 4th grade. Then the orphanage. Then... one year I returned to Texas and they'd torn down the orphanage. Even the family farm burned down. At some point you have to take a stand and build something permanent. But then what is permanent?

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: "Home may seem different, but it is we who have changed. Inevitably, the journey has changed us in some way. ..."

How true. Those that didn't leave seem stuck to me. We no longer share the same world...or mindset. Especially if they have only lived in one area of the country. Living in a place is different from vacationing there. Your expectation is different so you are looking at it differently. But to live is to adjust and that cause you to look at things from a different perspective. I am sure this is why we look at things differently when reading a book like the Catcher. We are bringing to it other experiences. I personally have lived all over the U.S. I have changed many times over...and returned three time to each area of the U.S.

[Paul Martin]

Renee wrote: "It's a small, quick bird that flies, at ever increasing speed, in circles of ever decreasing circumference, until, with a KERTHUNK, it flies up its own ass. "

Hhah, now I have!

[Mochaspresso]

To this day, every time that I have a dream that takes place "at home", the home is always my childhood home. Even when I am adult in the dream, it's always in that house. That house burned down and I haven't lived there in 30 yrs and I never dream about my current home at all. I always dream about that one.

[Kallie]

Monty J wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Some people never find home; that's a story too, if a sad one."

That's my story, but I'm trying to change it.

I changed schools six times by 4th grade. Then the orphanage. Then... ..."

I dunno. This is great writing material though.

[[deleted user]]

I'm bored.

[Paul Martin]

Brooke wrote: "I'm bored."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciFVIR...

Maybe this'll help.

[Karen]

Paul Martin wrote: "Brooke wrote: "I'm bored."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciFVIR...

Maybe this'll help."

LOL !!

[Karen]

Monty J wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Some people never find home; that's a story too, if a sad one."

That's my story, but I'm trying to change it.

I changed schools six times by 4th grade. Then the orphanage. Then... ..."

Writing about it is permanent- people will read it for generations, and effecting change for the good is hopefully permanent too, for a long while anyways.

[Renee E]

I've always felt trapped at what passes for home.

And so, I dream of living with in a yurt (with an outdoor kitchen, I love to cook) in the wilderness, close to water, with a pack of Filas.

[Paul Martin]

Renee wrote: "I've always felt trapped at what passes for home.

And so, I dream of living with in a yurt (with an outdoor kitchen, I love to cook) in the wilderness, close to water, with a pack of Filas."

And satelite wifi, just for Goodreads.

[Karen]

Renee wrote: "I've always felt trapped at what passes for home.

And so, I dream of living with in a yurt (with an outdoor kitchen, I love to cook) in the wilderness, close to water, with a pack of Filas."

Oh, I had to look that up, a dog breed I had no idea of. Well they will protect you!! And yes, you need your wifi

[Monty J]

Renee wrote: "I've always felt trapped at what passes for home.

And so, I dream of living with in a yurt (with an outdoor kitchen, I love to cook) in the wilderness, close to water, with a pack of Filas."

I know just the place, near Inverness, CA.

[[deleted user]]

My dream home is in a big city, somewhere I can hide but never be alone.

[Monty J]

Karen wrote: "Writing about it is permanent- people will read it for generations, and effecting change for the good is hopefully permanent too, for a long while anyways. "

There, you have said it. Home is in the imagination, transferred beneath the bindings to the reader in the Sacred Trinity of reader-book-writer.

Now I must go and write some.

[Paul Martin]

Or near the real Inverness - that's also a great place.

[Paul Martin]

Brooke wrote: "My dream home is in a big city, somewhere I can hide but never be alone."

Or is a big city simply a place where you can never hide, yet still always feel alone?

[Karen]

Monty J wrote: "Karen wrote: "Writing about it is permanent- people will read it for generations, and effecting change for the good is hopefully permanent too, for a long while anyways. "

There, you have said it...."

Yes- write write write! So I can read it and it will be permanently etched in my brain, and other brains.

[Cosmic]

I have live in the South (childhood and at different times as an adult), in the northeast Boston, Maine, and Philly. Pacific Northwest, above San Francisco and below Portland, a few places in fly over not worth mentioning, all as an adult. Nothing to do with the military either.

[Karen]

Paul Martin wrote: "Or near the real Inverness - that's also a great place."

NW Scotland? It must be beautiful there, but cold.

[Paul Martin]

Karen wrote: "NW Scotland? It must be beautiful there, but cold.."

More like NE, actually. And I prefer the term "fresh", or even "lively" :)

[Karen]

Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Home may seem different, but it is we who have changed. Inevitably, the journey has changed us in some way. ..."

How true. Those that didn't leave seem stuck to me. We no longer ..."

We all may bring to the story our different experiences, as you said, but I think with a story like TCiTR we can all get insight into Holdens character regardless of where we live. For me, the setting was fairly easy to grasp because I had lived near NYC for years. But that's just the setting. :)