The Catcher in the Rye
discussion
The reason people don't get why Catcher in the Rye is important
Carousel music is both jolly (or making an effort to be) and melancholy. I guess its the organ sound.
I am jumping in late, I know, but I just wanted to add that I understand the importance of the book, however, I did not enjoy it very much, because I found the protagonist to be moderately unlikeable. I was approximately his age when I read the book, if that matters at all.
Sara wrote: "I am jumping in late, I know, but I just wanted to add that I understand the importance of the book, however, I did not enjoy it very much, because I found the protagonist to be moderately unlikeab..."Yes, your age does matter when reading this book. Read it again when you are older, when you don't have to read it for school. You may have a different perspective.
Karen wrote: "Sara wrote: "I am jumping in late, I know, but I just wanted to add that I understand the importance of the book, however, I did not enjoy it very much, because I found the protagonist to be modera..."I was Holden's age when I read the book and loved it, and I still do (one year later). I don't think age matters, I think your maturity level does, or your ability to understand books like this. And I didn't have to read it for school either :/
Emma wrote: "Karen wrote: "Sara wrote: "I am jumping in late, I know, but I just wanted to add that I understand the importance of the book, however, I did not enjoy it very much, because I found the protagonis..."That's great Emma! I also think people your age have different maturity levels, and some need to re-read a classic book like this at a different time in their lives. I'm 56 and I just re-read it and loved it even more this time!
Karen and Emma, I understand what you are both saying. I may reread the book, and my opinion may change. However, let me clarify why I disliked Holden. I found him to be immature and self absorbed, compared to me and my friends at the time.
I liked Salinger's writing style. I appreciated the social commentary he was making with the narrative. I just didn't like Holden as a person. I have a feeling I would understand him more now that I'm an adult, not a teen myself, but I still might not like him.
I didn't realize that at all, and it was studied in English class. The things they forget to mention in English class...Reading the comments: I didn't realize he went west, either, or that he's coming to accept the adult world's flaws. This just made the book exponentially better. When I read it, the ending just felt abrupt and meaningless.
Not that I'd read it again, but at least I get it now. The ending has bothered me, has lurked in the back of my mind, for months. Now I can stop wondering about that. :)
Reading more comments: I don't like anything about american classrooms. Maybe that's the problem: I had to analyze it to death in class. Although I STILL wouldn't read this book if it wasn't a requirement for school. The swearing put me off.
The swearing put me off.I've always wondered about that. Why does it bother people? They're just words. Sounds coming out of the mouth of a primate on an organic spaceship, flying through space. WHat's the big deal?
Compared to the swearing you hear today, especially from kids, this is nothing.
Sara wrote: "Karen and Emma, I understand what you are both saying. I may reread the book, and my opinion may change. However, let me clarify why I disliked Holden. I found him to be immature and self absorbe..."
Well, Holden had experienced trauma- the death of his brother, witnessing a suicide, and there was an instance where Holden thought one of is teachers was molesting him. If you recall, Holden was telling his story from a psychiatric hospital.
I do remember this, Karen. And I sympathized with him, despite not liking him. I have experienced trauma as well, not of the same kind as him, and I won't get into what mine was since it's personal and not relevant to the thread. But I understand at least a small part of what Holden was going through. I can respect him and sympathize with him, but that doesn't mean I have to say I like him enough to want him as a friend. Does that make sense?
Lucy, that is one of my favorite Youtube videos ever!
Sara wrote: "I do remember this, Karen. And I sympathized with him, despite not liking him. I have experienced trauma as well, not of the same kind as him, and I won't get into what mine was since it's personal..."Ofcourse it makes sense, and we don't need to want him as a friend- I did find him very funny.
Karen wrote: "Ofcourse it makes sense, and we don't need to want him as a friend- I did find him very funny."Glad you understand where I'm coming from (I try hard to write clearly so that I'm understood)! And I wasn't implying we need him as a friend. He was funny though, yes.
Lucie wrote: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rX7-..."I love that the narrator's voice is so American newsreel, voice-over, school documentary, etc.
yes, you Anglo Saxons are fun sometimes
Lucie wrote: "yes, you Anglo Saxons are fun sometimes"Hahaha!! It's funny!
Paperadventures wrote: "The ending has bothered me, has lurked in the back of my mind, for months. Now I can stop wondering about that. :)..."This is my take on the next to the last chapter:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Hope this gives you more to think about.
Sara wrote: "Karen wrote: "Ofcourse it makes sense, and we don't need to want him as a friend- I did find him very funny."Glad you understand where I'm coming from (I try hard to write clearly so that I'm unde..."
Holden reminds me of some class clowns I knew. They were more fun than jocks. They tended to hang out with girls more than guys.
Lucie wrote: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rX7-..."Thanks. This gives me an idea for a poem. Or maybe a Rap song.
[Swearing alert]
I can't believe they missed WTF and "fuck-em if they can't take a joke." One of my drill instructor's favorite epithets was "Outmotherfuckingstanding! He could shift its meaning simply by the way he said it or by adding one word.
If he used a sing-song voice with "girls" tagged on to the end, we knew we were in for trouble, like a massive number of group pushups. "Get down and give me fifty!" "Sir, there's stickers here." "Eat the god-dam stickers!"
The guy had a seriously limited vocabulary. "Hard-ass Geiger" we called him, behind his back of course. Wore out his vocal chords yelling at us.
Took months to get his voice out of my head after basic training.
Kallie, I was never a fan of the class clowns, mainly because they distracted me from my studies. I was a bookworm/nerd :) But I get how they are more appealing than the jocks. I hung out with the nerds and artists.Monty J, that is hilarious. Gotta love military for learning creative swearing.
Lucie wrote: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rX7-..."I am sofucking sending that to my favorite grammar nazi.
Paul Martin wrote: "The swearing put me off.I've always wondered about that. Why does it bother people? They're just words. Sounds coming out of the mouth of a primate on an organic spaceship, flying through space. ..."
That's a difficult question to answer. It takes a long time to answer clearly, but I'll take a shot at it anyway. :)
For a long time I wondered what was wrong with swearing, since it's just words. Then I thought if that's true, then that's true of all words, right? The Catcher in the Rye is just words on pieces of paper, squiggles that we somehow attach meaning to. If we follow that line of reasoning, why do we study books in English class? Facebook conducted an experiment where they put negative posts on some user's newsfeed and positive posts on others. The people who saw positive posts were more likely to post positive things, and the same for negative posts. Meaning that words affect us, even swear words. I consider swearing to be negative, since they're all, on some level, insults.
If you replaced swear words with their meanings, it sounds silly (not an extremely relevant point, but a little relevant). Example: Well poop. Look at all this stuff that has intercourse with it's mother. (well s-, look at all this mf- stuff).
Some of the reasoning behind swear words is weird, I know. Compare it to modesty: Why is it more okay to show your arms and legs when you walk around in public, but not to show your butt? …actually, now that I say it, I can think of a reason. Butts specifically represent a (physically) dirty thing. Arms and legs don't. But it's still weird that swear words came into existence. They do serve a purpose… Swearing can relieve pain (aka why people swear when they hit their head/stub their toe). But da-- means God will send that person to hell. F-- and s--- are used as adjectives most of the time, which means they describe whatever and whoever you use them with as feces or are saying that they are currently having/some variation on intercourse. In my opinion, there are better ways to insult people/express yourself/shout when you stub your toe.
Swearing used for emphasis usually doesn't have any meaning attached, but there are other words used to emphasize which don't refer to poop or intercourse. And although people generally think about those things when they use the words, but the meaning is still there. It's considered impolite to swear. It's also impolite to fart. Farting doesn't actually harm those around you, but it can be unpleasant to those that aren't de-sensitized to it. Everyone is becoming de-sensitized to swearing, including me on some level, but I don't want to become de-sensitized to it. When I hear swearing, I sometimes swear in my head. The more often I see/read swearing, the more often it happens. I don't like hearing swearing. It's like... a violent cartoon. If a cartoon chicken gets it's head cut off and there's blood everywhere, you could say 'so what. It's just a drawing. It's not even realistic. No one got hurt in real life.' But they bother me as well. I don't mind if other people watch violent movies, but I don't like people to watch violent movies where I can see/hear them. I don't care if you swear around people that don't mind if you swear, but I'd rather not hear it, since it's against my religion to swear. Many, many people disagree with the previous sentence of course, but that's perfectly fine as well, as long as they respect my opinion. I understand why people swear, I just don't want to hear swearing.
So that is my long explanation of why swearing 'puts me off'. Of course this is just one opinion, but it's in answer to the question 'what's the big deal', because pretty much everyone I know doesn't understand why I don't swear/like to hear swearing. I hope that explains it clearly enough.
(Why did I just type this long thing? I like explaining things, although I'm not very concise.)
Cosmic wrote: "Paperadventures wrote: "The ending has bothered me, has lurked in the back of my mind, for months. Now I can stop wondering about that. :)..."This is my take on the next to the last chapter:
htt..."
That was incredibly enlightening. Thank you.
Paperadventures wrote: "I understand why people swear, I just don't want to hear swearing."Agreed. I don't like swearing either.
So I added a "[Swearing alert]" notice at the beginning of my post above.
Having said that, swearing is a reality and if a character has that trait, e.g., a drill instructor, it would be inauthentic to exclude it. Without swearing, some characters would seem lobotomized. A writer who shies away from it limits his/her options and the reach of his/her material for an audience.
Humankind is not a squeaky clean creature, despite our best intentions to make him/her so. Hiding his/er imperfections or denying they exist keeps us from addressing them. The author's mirror must have no filter.
That's a difficult question to answer. It takes a long time to answer clearly, but I'll take a shot at it anyway. :)Well, I didn't expect an answer like that :]
Alright, I understand.
I don't much care, as long as it's not directly insulting, like ethnic slurs.
Paul Martin wrote: "I don't much care, as long as it's not directly insulting, like ethnic slurs. "I'm the same way. However, when talking out loud, I have a bit of a foul mouth if I'm among friends and family rather than coworkers (but again, without directly insulting others, especially not for their innate traits)... And when I write stories, sometimes they have cursing in the dialogue or a character's thoughts, if it is appropriate for the character. I think Holden's swearing was realistic.
For me, it mostly depends on who I'm talking to at the time. And what the mood is. Different vocabularies for different groups and situations.But if someone's really, really irritated the redhead in me I tend to go with multisyllabic scholarly sorts of words.
Renee, I do what you mention in your first paragraph as well. There's a phrase for having different speech patterns depending on who you're talking to, but I forget what that phrase is... Does anyone know? It's not phase shifting, I thought that was it, but I looked it up and that doesn't look right.
Renee wrote: "For me, it mostly depends on who I'm talking to at the time. And what the mood is. Different vocabularies for different groups and situations.But if someone's really, really irritated the redhead..."
I would like to swear more, but my husband doesn't really like it, so I don't. It's a trade off.
Sara wrote: "Renee, I do what you mention in your first paragraph as well. There's a phrase for having different speech patterns depending on who you're talking to, but I forget what that phrase is... Does anyo..."Is that code switching?
Kallie, I figured it out right before you posted it. Yes, it is called code switching. For those curious:
http://grammar.about.com/od/c/g/codes...
I first taught Catcher back when more people thought like Paperadventures, and so instead of saying, "well, this is nothing compared to kids these days..." because "kids these days" have always sworn more than Holden, even in the 50s when it first came out, I needed to have a better sense of what that swearing was and why. So...the argument for verisimilitude or whatever (that is, Holden is a teen, teens swear, this is a realistic portrait of a teen) doesn't speak to the concerns that Paperadventures and others have about the book.Instead, let's consider why the swearing is offensive to the reader. And let's get this out of the way right now: there isn't much swearing in Catcher anyway, three or four "fuck you"s, a handful of "ass," and a bunch of "goddam"s.
So why is it bothersome? If it's the "goddam," consider how Holden actually upholds Christian values despite not being a Christian. He understands the true message of Christ as being based on kindness and compassion, and he practices it throughout the book. He understands the apostles let down Jesus all the time in the Bible; he values the charity work of the nuns and donates way more than he can afford to; he sees the Christmas spectacle at Radio City Hall and knows that Jesus would have disliked it. Holden is a true apostle of Christ if you want to think about it in that way, and I don't think that's too much a stretch...he lives in a fallen world, though, and he is corrupted like we all are. Thus he "goddams." But at his moral center, Holden is someone that a truly religious reader should admire for his goodness of heart and the kindness and compassion he practices.
And if one's problem with what little swearing there is in the book is not religion based, then look at the swearing in context. Holden is troubled by it. He seeks to remove it from the bathroom wall and when he finally sees the same words in his precious museum, he comes to a terrible but crucial epiphany, probably the most (or second most) important moment in the book: it can't be removed, innocence cannot be protected in this fallen world. And that realization allows him to move forward. He does not accept the necessity of the words, but he accepts the futility of what he is trying to do and now he can go forward. Without those words, there is no happy ending, no resolution, no hope for Holden I those last few pages. Those words have to be there for him to understand the world he lives in. And that helps us understand the world we live in.
So, despite the reservations some readers have, Catcher certainly does not promote swearing or suggest that it's even proper or acceptable behavior. If you want to put it in simplest terms, Catcher is an anti-swearing novel.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "And if one's problem with what little swearing there is in the book is not religion based, then look at the swearing in context. Holden is troubled by it. He seeks to remove it from the bathroom wall and when he finally sees the same words in his precious museum, he comes to a terrible but crucial epiphany, probably the most (or second most) important moment in the book: it can't be removed, innocence cannot be protected in this fallen world. And that realization allows him to move forward. "Thanks. A great comment on one of the qualities that make this book important: Holden's convincing character growth. And that is worth so much more than cheap thrills.
And this thread has turned back into a nutfest. I don't mean the squirrel food variety.
Great post, PeterG.
Thanks, Renee. And welcome back, Brooke. We've been in great need of brilliantly grounded folks like you on the thread. Please don't ever leave again.
Renee wrote: "Great post, PeterG."I second that, more insight on the epiphany Holden had.
Monty J wrote: "Paperadventures wrote: "I understand why people swear, I just don't want to hear swearing."Agreed. I don't like swearing either.
So I added a "[Swearing alert]" notice at the beginning of my pos..."
I agree, Holden would be inauthentic if he didn't swear. That's my flaw as a writer, I can't write about people that swear without making it sound fake. The thing that got me annoyed with the whole swearing thing was that there was a lot of required material that swore a lot in my English class, thus I had no choice in the matter. But everything annoys me in English class.
Your comment "Humankind is not a squeaky clean creature" made me think of Stephen King's "On Writing". He makes a good point about swearing, but I can't remember what it was. Your comment also made me think, 'we could try to be a squeaky clean culture, couldn't we?', as in discourage swearing, but I see your point.
Karen wrote: "I would like to swear more, but my husband doesn't really like it, so I don't. It's a trade off. "The things modern women have to endure, what an outrage ;)
Paperadventures wrote: "That's my flaw as a writer, I can't write about people that swear without making it sound fake."I suspect your "flaw" can also be a strength. Write into your strengths. I have friends who won't read books with swearing, and they'll pay more if they have to. Be true to yourself and your self authenticity will ring through your writing.
Paul Martin wrote: "Karen wrote: "I would like to swear more, but my husband doesn't really like it, so I don't. It's a trade off. "The things modern women have to endure, what an outrage ;)"
Well, my husband doesn't like alot of swearing regardless of gender, a bit of swearing is okay though.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "I first taught Catcher back when more people thought like Paperadventures, and so instead of saying, "well, this is nothing compared to kids these days..." because "kids these days" have always swo..."I found the 'f you' moments to be a great turn of events and character development. I just wanted to reach through the pages and tell him 'the world is messed up. please stop worrying about it so much, it'll drive you crazy' and then give him some chocolate or something (because if I hugged him he might think I was creepy).
I don't mind other people reading the Catcher in the Rye, it's just that I find reading/hearing a swear word unpleasant, so I try to avoid reading them myself. The swearing distracted me from pretty much everything else (every time I read one, I sort of flinch inside).
This thread makes me feel kind of conflicted, since the Catcher in the Rye does have such an interesting, conflicted character. Would I have read it if it weren't assigned in English class? What if I didn't read it, and never knew all the references to him in future books and online stuff I read? I feel like I would have missed out, in a way.
I didn't understand the Catcher in the Rye at all after I finished it. Maybe it's just not my type of book. He sees everything so negatively, and I (perhaps over-optomistically, but who knows) think that most things can be positive or negative, depending on how you percieve it. I didn't get that there was a happy ending at all, but your last paragraph there makes sense.
I can't believe how little I understood this book actually, and how much you all understand it. This is the most I've commented on any thread, ever. The Catcher in the Rye is interesting to talk about. xD
Monty J wrote: "Paperadventures wrote: "That's my flaw as a writer, I can't write about people that swear without making it sound fake."I suspect your "flaw" can also be a strength. Write into your strengths. I ..."
My character is a bit of a Holden, ironically. Sometimes I write 'He swore.' Usually I delete it again.
Paperadventures, you can always resort to grawlix.Or he could be trying to clean up his language and stop mid-word.
Paperadventures wrote: "My character is a bit of a Holden, ironically. Sometimes I write 'He swore.' Usually I delete it again."This aspect of your character appeals to me, and here's why.
Before I went to the childrens' home at age 9, I was raised mostly by a great-aunt who was very religious. I accompanied her to a nearby Baptist church every Sunday. Other family members were equally religious, but not my mother--who was seldom around--and her younger brother who lived with us.
A deep sense of god and Jesus was ingrained in me, along with an immense fear of the devil and of going to hell. Whenever I even had a "bad" thought, I would say a silent prayer asking forgiveness.
I tried to avoid cracks in the sidewalk, chanting silently, "step on a crack, break your mother's back." I was also deeply conflicted about religion because of my mother's indifference to it and her and my uncle's wild alcoholic lifestyle. I lived in fear of being bad and wanting to be good so my mother would change and become the loving mother I wanted and that kids deserve. She cursed regularly. She was on the wrong side, a sinner. I couldn't be like her and expect my soul not to "go down to the bad place."
Swearing or agonizing over it, can reflect a character's conflicted inner life. To me, Holden swearing reflected his immense inner conflict. For that reason I didn't judge him harshly. I accepted this flaw as if it were a physical defect, a broken arm, a hump on his back.
Just finished rereading Destroy All Cars for the umpteenth time and I swear it's the literary descendant of Catcher, only with less cursing and more environmental concerns. It's a little-known, underappreciated modern masterpiece.
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Agreed. Not much feeling.
"I think this is the one that Salinger was referring to.
Yes, the timing was right. My mother loved Glenn Miller, Nat King Cole, the Dorsey brothers. I'm sure I heard this in the early '50s, before getting packed off to the orphanage. To this day that kind of music sends me for loop. I played big band music in high school. Its ingrained in me like no other.
Enjoyed the discussion, as always.