The reason people don't get why Catcher in the Rye is important

[[deleted user]]

Call me a senile idiot, but you lost me. 2012? John Green? I obviously had a sheltered life!

[Petergiaquinta]

Dude, 2112! Rush rocks, dude...you must have had Rush in Czechoslovakia in the '70s. They transcended ideology and must have crossed the Iron Curtain. At least I hope they did.

Frankly, I had no interest at the time. I was too busy listening to Parliament-Funkadelic, lolololo, and my favorite band from the '70s, War. But just like Mark confessed a while ago, I have in my adulthood learned to overcome my prejudices and embrace music I once scorned.

As for John Green, he's the flavor of the day among the YA set. I'm not sure what he's doing in this thread, but I'm eager to learn.

[Karen]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Dude, 2112! Rush rocks, dude...you must have had Rush in Czechoslovakia in the '70s. They transcended ideology and must have crossed the Iron Curtain. At least I hope they did.

Frankly, I had no i..."

No Rush for me, musical taste is subjective, - didn't like them then, don't now.

[[deleted user]]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2112_(al... ???? Never heard of it. But I will ask my ex husband, he is and was into music. For me, lyrics in music were always the most important part. Hence I like Mountain Goat, Bruce Springsteen, Paul SImon, stuff like that.
My ( very friendly- we had that oxymoron, an amicable divorce ) ex husband on the other hand gets the music and could not care less about the lyrics.
As a teenager, I used to listen to the Franch stuff- Edith Piaf, Gilbert Becaud, Jacques Brel, and Czech variants of poetry set to music.
Wow This is so educational , I found out about Funkadelic and now Rush! ( I have never heard about War either. Obviously completely illiterate. But we did not have much Western music on radio and none on Tv ( apart from 1967-1968 and I was a bit young.

[[deleted user]]

*cackles, rubs hands*
This is going to be good.
The Fault in Our Stars is the kind of book Holden Caulfield would loathe. It has cardboard characters, pretentious dialogue, an extremely stupid cigarette "metaphor," no real plot, insta-love, a butchered Shakespeare quote for a title, a predictable ending, and a kiss in Anne Frank's house. (Yeah, you read that right.) To top it all off, it's emotionally manipulative and romanticizes cancer. It's easily the phoniest, most unrealistic, most pretentious thing I've ever read.

And yet...and yet...it has a zillion five-star reviews here on Goodreads and people raving about it all over the Internet for apparently no reason other than it made them cry.

Oh, really?

You cried? You wasted your valuable tears over the obnoxious, pretentious, ridiculous, unrealistic, sorry excuse for a character affectionately known as Augustus Waters? Great. Wonderful. Kudos to you. I'm happy for you. No, really.

I did not shed a tear over TFiOS. No surprise there; I have trouble expressing my emotions even over genuinely sad things. This, on the other hand...
"I don't think I can carry on
Carry on this cold and empty life
Oh, no..."

No matter how many times I hear that, I always start crying. And I'm glad, because I know it's not the result of some pretentious asshole messing with my head. Which is why, as far as I'm concerned, John Green can fuck off.

I'll stop now, because if I continue talking about my favorite band in the same context as TFiOS for much longer, I may have to jump off a cliff.

May the Snow Demons have mercy on my soul.*

*That was a Calvin and Hobbes reference, in case you didn't get it. :D

[[deleted user]]

wow! Passion! I like that. Although the polite stickler in me thinks Brooke should say:
In MY OPINION this is pretentious crap.
( sounds like it).
Btw maybe people who cry inappropriately have either depression or ALzheimer's - a symptom of both! Trust me, I'm a doctor!

[Petergiaquinta]

War--I'm always glad to deliver the word about this fine band. It's a rhythm and blues/funk/Afro-Latin rock fusion of wonderfulness that Eric Burdon put together in the late '60s. They even had a Norwegian mouth harp player, Lee Oskar, so maybe Paul Martin should take a listen!

Early on there was a little bit of psychedelia in some of their longer musical adventures, courtesy no doubt of Eric Burdon, but that aspect went away after he left. On that first album, Eric Burdon Declares War, "Spill the Wine" is a chestnut, but I prefer the opening track, "The Vision of Rassan/Roll on Kirk," one of my favorite songs of my entire life. It blew my puny little mind when I was a kid.

Give a listen to "Sun oh Sun," "Me and Baby Brother," or "Slippin into Darkness" for starters.

[Ted]

Peter wrote "rhythm and blues/funk/Afro-Latin rock fusion"

Drove me right to YouTube. Music that I knew I would like from that great description. Then I noticed that the album Why Can't We Be Friends? is in 1000 Recordings to Hear Before You Die. Hiding back in the W's with the group!

I'm in an old guy's years-long project of becoming familiar with music that I missed in the 60s and 70s for various reasons. Thanks for this mention, I'll be getting some of their music soon (probably within the hour).

Speaking of (contemporary) funk/fusion, are you familiar with Budos Band? If not probably anything on YouTube would be good.

[[deleted user]]

CAN YOU SEND THE YOU TUBE LINK? i AM GETTING A LATE MUSICAL EDUCATION! And as you can see I do not touch type hence the unnoticed capslock!

[Monty J]

Brooke wrote: "*cackles, rubs hands*
This is going to be good.
The Fault in Our Stars is the kind of book Holden Caulfield would loathe. It has cardboard characters, pretentious dialogue, an extremely stupid ciga..."

You are SO right. Holden had a refined taste for the arts. He liked Out of Africa and The Great Gatsby. He critiqued theater acting in exquisite detail, including Laurence Olivier. Same with music. Anyone who loves the timeless classic, "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" is a friend of mine.

No matter how many times I hear that, I always start crying. And I'm glad, because I know it's not the result of some pretentious asshole messing with my head. Which is why, as far as I'm concerned, John Green can fuck off.

Yes, those are compelling lyrics for anyone with half a soul and not living in a semi-conscious state, like 90% of America, zoned out on mesmerizing advertising or stoned on whatever to avoid actually FEELING life.

I've already told Green to fuck off. He gets it wrong sometimes. He's right occasionally too (check out his bit on Slaughterhouse Five and stay with it to the very end, where he says something original and profound about war.), but he's had some real bloopers.

I guess we're all human. (Now I'm going to go to Youtube and find that song you mentioned.)

Btw, what the bleep is "2112" and what's it got to do with Ayn Rand?

I found Rush and 2112. Lots of energy there. Amazing percussion. Couldn't understand many of the lyrics though. But the connection to Rand?

[Ted]

Lucie wrote: "CAN YOU SEND THE YOU TUBE LINK? i AM GETTING A LATE MUSICAL EDUCATION! And as you can see I do not touch type hence the unnoticed capslock!"

For Budos, this one will get you started Lucie. There's no video with it, just the music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_CPY...

[[deleted user]]

That is good music ( no lyrics and I still like it!

[Kallie]

Ry Cooder. Decades of his own brilliant recordings, among them 'Get Rhythm,' 'Bop 'til You Drop,' 'Boomer's Story,' 'Mambo Sinuoso' (whoa), and such generous intros to great world musicians: African, Cuban, Latin. . .

[mkfs]

Brooke wrote: "It's not hers, but...
2112. "


Haha, nicely done!

And I was just using 2112 as an example in conversation with a recording engineer last night (something about the spacing of grooves on vinyl for bass-heavy recordings ... I can neither confirm nor deny that many beers fueled the discussion).

[mkfs]

Kallie wrote: "Ry Cooder. "


Kallie, was it you who recommended the Captain Beefheart documentary (available in its entirety wherever fine YouTubes are sold)?

That was quite enjoyable. I usually can't make it through music documentaries, but with the antics of ol' Captain I guess any retelling is going to be a close cousin to Spinal Tap.

[mkfs]

Monty J wrote: "I found Rush and 2112. Lots of energy there. Amazing percussion. Couldn't understand many of the lyrics though. But the connection to Rand? "

Ayn Rand on a Rush site

Rush on an Ayn Rand site [PDF].

[Kallie]

Mkfs wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Ry Cooder. "


Kallie, was it you who recommended the Captain Beefheart documentary (available in its entirety wherever fine YouTubes are sold)?

That was quite enjoyable. I usually ..."

No, not me. Liked them though; haven't listened in a long while. The Scorsese doc about Dylan is great.

[Petergiaquinta]

Sorry, Paul Martin...Lee Oskar is Danish. Not sure what I was thinking, beyond just ugly American thoughts in general, lumping all you Scandinavians together. Sorry!

[Karen]

Mkfs wrote: "Kallie wrote: "Ry Cooder. "


Kallie, was it you who recommended the Captain Beefheart documentary (available in its entirety wherever fine YouTubes are sold)?

That was quite enjoyable. I usually ..."

I think it was me, the one where Ry Cooder was interviewed- (when he was young and cute, early 1980's maybe) He was telling the story of Captain Beefheart's mechanized crossbow and he was threatening his band with it?

[[deleted user]]

Mkfs wrote: "Brooke wrote: "It's not hers, but...
2112. "


Haha, nicely done!"
Thank you.
...Wonder what Holden would think of this thread?

[Kallie]

This is why I mistrust the New Yorker, tho I read parts of their weekly email subscription:

"Like the best realistic Y.A. books, and like “The Catcher in the Rye”—a novel that today would almost certainly be marketed as Y.A.—Green’s books were narrated in a clever, confiding voice. His protagonists were sweetly intellectual teen-age boys smitten with complicated, charismatic girls."

I can't remember the name of the person who wrote this, but they are FOS if they think what they describe here compares with CitR.

[mkfs]

Karen wrote: "He was telling the story of Captain Beefheart's mechanized crossbow and he was threatening his band with it? "

That's the one! I remember it came up because of Beefheart and Ry Cooder.

Thanks again!

[Karen]

Mkfs wrote: "Karen wrote: "He was telling the story of Captain Beefheart's mechanized crossbow and he was threatening his band with it? "

That's the one! I remember it came up because of Beefheart and Ry Coode..."

Isn't it great? I could watch it again

[mkfs]

My favorite bit is still the avante-garde film they made as a commercial for Lick My Decals Off, Baby.

[Karen]

Mkfs wrote: "My favorite bit is still the avante-garde film they made as a commercial for Lick My Decals Off, Baby."

Hahaha!!! Funny. I'm slowly becoming a Beefheart fan, thanks to husband. I worked with a very conservative pharmacist once who was an avid fan.

[Paul Martin]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Sorry, Paul Martin...Lee Oskar is Danish. Not sure what I was thinking, beyond just ugly American thoughts in general, lumping all you Scandinavians together. Sorry!"

That's quite alright, we do look alike.

[Paul Martin]

Brooke wrote: "*cackles, rubs hands*
This is going to be good."

...and good it was!

[Emma]

I've loved this book for a long time, but I seem to be the only one in my school who has read it, aside from the teachers. And I think a reason for that is the teachers never showed us this book. Why, if it's so brilliant, are no kids being encouraged to read it?

[[deleted user]]

Kallie wrote: "This is why I mistrust the New Yorker, tho I read parts of their weekly email subscription:

"Like the best realistic Y.A. books, and like “The Catcher in the Rye”—a novel that today would almost c..."
WTF?!
No. Just no.
FOS, indeed.

Paul Martin wrote: "Brooke wrote: "*cackles, rubs hands*
This is going to be good."

...and good it was!"
Thanks.

[[deleted user]]

Lucie wrote: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2112_(al... ???? Never heard of it. But I will ask my ex husband, he is and was into music. For me, lyrics in music were always the most important part. Hence I like M..."
NO, LUCIE! DON'T TRUST WIKIPEDIA! IT'S EVIL! Just listen to the damned thing! Brace yourself, though. It's not exactly soft rock. ;)

[Paul Martin]

Brooke wrote: It's not exactly soft rock. ;)

Meh, I'd say that's precisely what it is. A matter of perspective (or definition), I suppose.

[Emma]

Well not really. My English class just finished a book where the main character has sex with this girl he likes right at the end so :/

[Karen]

Emma wrote: "Well not really. My English class just finished a book where the main character has sex with this girl he likes right at the end so :/"

I work in a middle school, and I know it's not HS but it's all linked- so my hunch is that's the reason. The subject of masturbation is more taboo than boy/girl sex.

[Emma]

Makes sense.

[Karen]

Emma wrote: "Makes sense."

Actually it's too bad, because it's a great book!

[Emma]

I agree :D

[Kallie]

Emma wrote: "I've loved this book for a long time, but I seem to be the only one in my school who has read it, aside from the teachers. And I think a reason for that is the teachers never showed us this book. W..."

I also imagine they dislike Holden's attitude; it's seriously irreverent toward school and teachers.

[Emma]

One of my teachers said 'stay gold ponyboy' was a load of crap. I can't imagine what she'd say about Holden

[Karen]

Kallie wrote: "Emma wrote: "I've loved this book for a long time, but I seem to be the only one in my school who has read it, aside from the teachers. And I think a reason for that is the teachers never showed us..."

It is, and I think it may appeal to those student school haters. The themes are adult and uncomfortable for teachers, good point. But I always think a great teacher can effectively teach any book.

[mkfs]

Karen wrote: "my hunch is that's the reason. The subject of masturbation is more taboo than boy/girl sex. "

So that's why they don't teach Confederacy of Dunces either, eh?

Hmm, that means both of the books on my "re-read because I must have missed something if they are so highly regarded" list contain masturbation.

Interesting, and slightly amusing. Perhaps I should rename it The Wank List.

[Gary]

Emma wrote: "One of my teachers said 'stay gold ponyboy' was a load of crap. I can't imagine what she'd say about Holden"

This was an English teacher discussing the book? Youch.

[Karen]

Mkfs wrote: "Karen wrote: "my hunch is that's the reason. The subject of masturbation is more taboo than boy/girl sex. "

So that's why they don't teach Confederacy of Dunces either, eh?

Hmm, that means both o..."

I don't even know Confederacy of Dunces, is it funny? But yes, horrific violence and standard brief sex is acceptable but masturbation is not ever to be discussed, because people just don't do that. Not in schools anyways. I beg to differ, I've known boys to be in the bathroom for a very long time.

[Petergiaquinta]

Confederacy of Dunces may be one of the funniest books ever written (after Catch-22, maybe). But goodness knows it isn't for everyone...

In it, the fat and very unlovable Ignatius Reilly, (a medievalist, grad school flunk-out, who is both flatuant and socially retarded) is finally thrust out into the world by his long-suffering mother who insists he find himself a job. Hilarity ensues...

[[deleted user]]

Karen wrote: "Mkfs wrote: "Karen wrote: "my hunch is that's the reason. The subject of masturbation is more taboo than boy/girl sex. "

So that's why they don't teach Confederacy of Dunces either, eh?

Hmm, that..."

I love that book although there is absolutely no nice character in it. Very weird and great book. The story how it was published and wom Pulitzer is also interesting. Nobody wanted to publish it, the writer killed himself, and his mother went around publishers till she made one read it and print it- it won Pulitzer in that year!
Maybe self publishing saves lives!

[Karen]

Petergiaquinta wrote: "Confederacy of Dunces may be one of the funniest books ever written (after Catch-22, maybe). But goodness knows it isn't for everyone...

In it, the fat and very unlovable Ignatius Reilly, (a medie..."

Oh that sounds hilarious!

[mkfs]

Lucie wrote: "I love that book although there is absolutely no nice character in it. Very weird and great book."

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean. It has been recommended to me ad nauseam, and when I excitedly read my first copy, I found it to be utterly ridiculous. Didn't care for it at all.

That reading is now at such a great remove, as is my reading of Catcher, that I am going to have to re-read the thing before I can discuss it intelligently.

[[deleted user]]

Mkfs wrote: "Lucie wrote: "I love that book although there is absolutely no nice character in it. Very weird and great book."

Yeah, this is exactly what I mean. It has been recommended to me ad nauseam, and wh..."

Well, that is a challenge! I'll be curious what you think. It is a very strange book. I supposed I know patients like this!
Let me know once you have tried to read it again!
Lucie

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: "You are SO right. Holden had a refined taste for the arts. He liked Out of Africa and The Great Gatsby. He critiqued theater acting in exquisite detail, including Laurence Olivier. Same with music. Anyone who loves the timeless classic, "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" is a friend of mine...."

I love "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes". My parents even took me to see the Platters.

But it isn't the kinda a song that I think would be improved if it was speeded up. I mean it is, like you said a sad song. But I guess if you are going to play it again and again on a carousel maybe you would want to hear it like the chipmunk.

No the song is sad. And to play it on the carousel sounds ridiculous. I would not have thought of using that song if I had been writing that scene. How about you Monte? You think that was appropriate to use a song that makes you cry every time you hear it for a carousel ride?

If you don't, maybe you would like another perspective:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Monty J]

Cosmic wrote: "How about you Monte? You think that was appropriate to use a song that makes you cry every time you hear it for a carousel ride?"

Holden's tears were tears of joy.

The Platters' rendition was downbeat, blusy. But there were other versions before the Platters--Judy Garand and Irene Dunne. Irene's version would be more relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkQU-...

Irene interprets the song in a more serene, wondrous fashion befitting someone in love, the near ecstatic mood Holden was in at the carousel. He had been rescued from the brink of a cliff, from making the potentially disastrous decision to run away and not face his parents. He had thought all was lost, but Phoebe's fierce subbornness proved her devotion to him, jerking him back to the reality that he had a family who loved him and wanted him safe and sound at home at Christmas time.

The carousel could have given the song a jazzy, more upbeat flare, but not necessarily "chipmunky." Holden was happy as hell, so happy he was in tears. The jazzy rendition of "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" is perfectly fitting, giving the scene a wondrous, magical quality.

It's as if Salinger had written a movie script, supplying the soundtrack for the scene.

Fitzgerald did this in The Great Gatsby, some would say to excess. That's probably where Salinger got the idea.

[Cosmic]

Monty J wrote: "The carousel could have given the song a jazzy, more upbeat flare, but not necessarily "chipmunky." Holden was happy as hell, so happy he was in tears. The jazzy rendition of "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" is perfectly fitting, giving the scene a wondrous, magical quality. ..."


Thank you for the link. I thought she sang it in kinda a plastic way. I guess fitting for her occasion.

You are right. I found a version of the song that I think would have worked better than both of our versions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48rB92...

What is noteworthy is the text underneath:

"Here is a real treat Glenn Miller fans. In October and November 1944 Glenn Miller and his American Band of the Allied Expeditionary Forces made a series of propaganda recordings to be broadcast to Germany. These proved to be the last recordings Glenn Miller made shortly before he disappeared on a flight over the English Channel. They were forgotten until being discovered in the 1990's. In 1996 RCA released them on a two-CD set titled The Lost Recordings. The quality of the music is exceptional because they were made in London's Abbey Road. "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" was written by Jerome Kern and Otto Harbach for the 1933 operetta Roberta. It was recorded on November 20,1944."

I think this is the one that Salinger was referring to.

I agree with your remark about Fitzgerald influence here.

I am just excited to have found a stronger connection to WW2. Thanks for the discussion.