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Need An Editor? Why not grab another author?
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Can we please respect the fact that editing is a highly skilled job in its own right?
Too true, Lin. I wrote millions of words before an editor showed me the difference between that and books.I may cringe in fear at the editorial hatchet, but I respect the skill with which it is wielded.
Appreciate your comment about editors Lin. I've seen so many authors set up as editors, in an already tight market, often because they aren't making enough out of writing or because they think there is easy money in editing. I. Think. Not.
I guess as a new author I can see the benefit of using another author. Editors are highly trained and expensive, and rightly so... but a new author is starting from the beginning, and $600- $1000 is a huge outlay, along with advertising on top of that.Writing is a former of art and if Picasso or Monet had massive initial outlays, they probably would never have gotten past their first painting. Luckily they could paint over it again and again on the same base until they were happy with the result.
A lot of people criticise not using an editor, but please remember that we are trying our best. Perhaps when we sell the 600-1000 books it takes to pay for an editor, we can go back and employ one...
If all you have is another author to help you, then you're doing the best you can.
Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but it's how I see it from the point of view of a starting author..
Claire x
Claire wrote: "I guess as a new author I can see the benefit of using another author. Editors are highly trained and expensive, and rightly so... but a new author is starting from the beginning, and $600- $1000 i..."I agree and I'm glad someone commented this. It's not easy to get serious about something in the creative industry (like writing and art). Sometimes all a writer can afford is (free) help from others and (cheap) beta(s)/proofreader(s)/editor(s).
Same goes for art. I can't pay for a Photoshop license or a fancy drawing tablet, nor can I afford expensive paints and such. If I want good supplies, I need to save money and work for it.
Personally, all I can do myself is work a job next to writing and drawing and work on those when I have time off of work. It's not easy, but it's all I can do
Do you have any idea how much time it takes to edit books of 100,000–150,000 words? For less than $600 ? Editing isn't just proofreading, although that is included (in my case). It includes looking at repetition, parts that don't flow, any conflict in the plot, getting rid of irrelevancy, adding something where the story jumps illogically. Agreeing on a style guide and, if required, providing a style sheet. Just for example. It's not just a once read through merrily on trackchanges. It involves engaging with the author, asking them for rewrites and suggested changes.
@ Rachel. If you want to pay for good supplies, can you tell me why that doesn't include a professional editor?
@ Claire. Actually why pay another author? You might as well use beta readers and friends and family. Do you think you will sell 1000 books?
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Do you have any idea how much time it takes to edit books of 100,000–150,000 words? For less than $600 ? Editing isn't just proofreading, although that is included (in my case). It includes looki..."
'Good supplies' are often the cheaper alternatives, in my case. Sorry, forgot to mention it:) I basically live on 'cheaper alternatives' these days.
I would love to pay for a professional editor and I know how much time it takes to thoroughly edit something (although I'm not you, but I can imagine!). I just don't have the money, so I need to find different (cheaper) alternatives.
But those who DO have the money will surely listen to your advice and hire a professional (or so I hope)!
Honestly, I'm sad the (creative) industry runs on money so much. I understand that editors and publishers etc. need to make money, but the authors are often the victim. I mean, royalties don't exactly make a person rich. Especially if a book doesn't sell...That may just be me, though.
Just my opinion!
-Rachel
@roughseasinthemed I'm sure every author would love to be able to afford an editor - if you read my post, I agreed that an editor is worth it. I am respectful of an editors role and do not appreciate your negative comments. I did not say I was paying another author, but am using beta readers here. My point was that not everyone can afford to avail of the services of an editor. I am currently buying a house and an editor costs the same as a conveyancing solicitor. My choice is simple - provide a roof for my family. The solicitor offers me guarantees. Editors offer guidance that good betas and critique partners (ie other authors) do.
While we respect your place and are not asking you to lower your value, please respect ours. It takes strength and dignity to admit that we do not have limitless funds, but we do have dreams and aspirations.
Claire wrote: "@roughseasinthemed I'm sure every author would love to be able to afford an editor - if you read my post, I agreed that an editor is worth it. I am respectful of an editors role and do not apprecia..."Claire wrote: "I guess as a new author I can see the benefit of using another author. Editors are highly trained and expensive, and rightly so... but a new author is starting from the beginning, and $600- $1000 i..."
What negative comments?
You said you could see the benefit of using another author. Rather than an editor.
Solicitors? Yeah. Right.
I'll look forward to seeing your book Claire. I'm sure it will be perfect. Dreams and aspirations need funding to succeed.
Rachel wrote: "Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Do you have any idea how much time it takes to edit books of 100,000–150,000 words? For less than $600 ? Editing isn't just proofreading, although that is included (in m..."
So, poor authors need to exist but poor editors don't? Is this victimise the editor thread? Sure feels like it. Don't selfpub authors realise it costs money to get books out there? Or at least, decent books?
In Defense of Professional EditorsI'll quote from Publishing 101 because Friedman says it much better and she has clout. In her book, she also tells you how to find a reputable professional editor. (Friedman knows about the publishing world as she was "President and Chief Executive Officer of HarperCollins Publishers Worldwide, one of the world's leading English-language publishers, from 1997 to 2008." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Fr...))
"Most writers don't clearly understand how an editor might improve their work (or to what extent). Writers must have a level of sophistication and knowledge about their work (or themselves!) to know where their weaknesses are, and how a professional might assist them... There are many different types of editing, and if you don't know what they are--or what kind you need--then you're not ready for a professional editor.Note: It is also said that you need to write a lot (some say a million words) before your work is at a publishable level. In fact, Friedman says that the first work of many writers is not publishable. that's true of mine. ymmv.
"2. Writers may sincerely seek professional help, but very few are willing to pay for it. You probably will not receive a quality review on your entire manuscript--that will actually affect your chances of publication--for less than $2,000.
...
"You've probably heard the 'Wild West' cliche more than once in reference to all the changes happening in the publishing industry. I've been working in and observing the media industry since 1998, and never before have I seen so many people or services focused on 'helping' writers as now.
Why is everyone suddenly interested in helping?
1. Lost of people do, in fact, need help.
2. There's lots of confusion.
3. There's some money to be made.
When you combine reasons #2 and #3, it produces a lot of unnecessary 'help' that writers don't need, or that could waste their time."
@roughseasinthemed I'm not getting into a row with you. Never have I criticised editors, merely pointed put I couldn't afford one. You being aggressive will not change that fact...
Good luck with your business.
I never said anything negative about professional editors either, @roughseasinthemed.Like I tried to explain, I realize that editors etc. need to make money but if an author doesn't have the money to pay an editor than... why should the editor be bothered by this? It's not the author's fault for being on a budget nor the editor's for asking the amount of money that fits the amount of work and time spent on editing.
And yes, we know it costs money to get a book out there. And I'm sure I am one of many who spends many a penny on writing. Maybe not hundreds, but that's because money needs to go elsewhere as well.
Btw, I believe this thread was never meant to become a discussion. So I'll leave it at this myself.
Mod
Lin wrote: "The point that needs to be understood is that there is a vast difference in the help to be received from a fellow writer or from an editor. By all means make the decision that you're not going to p..."The other point that needs to be made is that an author, particularly a new author, is paying up front with now real idea of the value of the product or service being purchased. You have to go through the process and look at the end product to determine is the investment was worthwhile. I have paid for professional editing services. My ms was returned ahead of schedule and I was pleased with the work on the early chapters but the editor left the last half of the manuscript untouched. I made some fixes. My beta readers let me know about a lot of stuff that still needed fixing. I am going to have to pay for professional editing - I can't do that job effectively. I would rather not pay beta readers but everybody's time is valuable. So I am ready to reward beta readers but I would like to have some expectation that I am going to get something valuable in return.
Lin wrote: "The point that needs to be understood is that there is a vast difference in the help to be received from a fellow writer or from an editor. By all means make the decision that you're not going to p..."I agree. I didn't get an editor because I have money. I'm skint, and do without a lot of what some consider essentials to get my editing done (car, booze, TV, take-out meals, heating in most rooms).
The difference between my beta'd work after making alterations and professionally edited work is startling. Better yet, Sharon Umbaugh's feedback is actually training me to write which unfortunately for her reduces her work - and pay. :-)
Editing a 10,000K ms now costs me £350 + depending on how well I've done my job. (Revise, rewrite, beta, rewrite, check, revise, rinse and repeat if necessary. Then editor.)
The better we authors get the ms before submission, the cheaper the edit is. To do that, all hail the mighty beta reader, who (gently) shoots down our wilder flights of literary suicide, mends our plots, and mentions glaring errors in grammar. If the beta is also author, maybe swapping manuscripts, that is still a beta and not an editor.
If you want to make quick money, burn the ms now. If you write for pleasure (I did at first) you don't need an editor. If you want to build a following and eventually sell books, get an editor (unless you are one of those rare creatures, a naturally perfect author) Look at the quality of the vast majority of self-published books if you don't believe me.
At least, this is how it worked for me (and got me a publishing deal)
Joe et al,Friedman's Publishing 101 describes how to evaluate professional editors and it provides resources to find them. Her website is chock-full of useful knowledge as well.
Vance: way to go! We've got to make it the best we can before sending it on to an editor. It's that attention to detail that can improve one's writing faster than otherwise. Ymmv
Oh almost forgot. "Self-editing for Fiction Writers: Editing Yourself into Print" in its 2nd edition & written by two professional editors has proven invaluable to me.
Mod
Alex G wrote: "Joe et al,Friedman's Publishing 101 describes how to evaluate professional editors and it provides resources to find them. Her website is chock-full of useful knowledge as well.
Okay, Alex. I checked it out. Most of what I saw there was similar to what I picked up from other sources. I did go to the Resources tab, which looks like a good place for anyone looking for professional services, I picked one and submitted a chapter. We'll see what happens.
Joe wrote: "Alex G wrote: "Joe et al,Friedman's Publishing 101 describes how to evaluate professional editors and it provides resources to find them. Her website is chock-full of useful knowledge as well.
O..."
cool
Now that I'm in between projects, I'm happy to announce that my company, Free Eagle Studios, has opened up an editing division to help in the never ending quest to make entertainment awesome again. For our opening run, we offer beta-reading services, line editing, and developmental editing, which should help you polish your new story to a mirror shine.
If you are interested, you can find our current rates, in-depth information, and a way to contact us on our website.
We accept almost all genres, too. Let's see what we can do to make a great book together!