Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Adrien English series challenge #1: Fatal Shadows
I've been in a reading slump lately so I perked up when I saw this challenge. Adrien and Jake have this uncanny ability to creep up in my thoughts every now and then. It usually involves little HEA domestic scenes like Jake smiling from afar at Tomkins and Scout both avidly watching Adrien who is engrossed in a book. *sigh* : )
I tend to skim on re-reads and just jump from good part to good part but seeing all these posts made me exited at really diving back into the series.
*Exited!*
Elena wrote: "After Adrien's shop is burglarized, Jake and Chan are questioning him and Jake picks up a book with two men embracing on the cover, snorts and tosses it aside."I was thinking about that scene too. Was he putting on a show for his partner to make sure everybody knew how macho straight he was? Or was it what he really felt, like you said, Elena, that he couldn't see a relationship between two men as something normal and healthy.
Alan wrote: "I tend to skim on re-reads and just jump from good part to good part but seeing all these posts made me exited at really diving back into the series. *Exited!* "
Yes! It's such a great reason to savour every word on the page, right? I'm prone to skipping on rereads too. I found that audiobooks help with that, skipping is much more difficult with them. :-)
Calathea wrote: "Elena wrote: "After Adrien's shop is burglarized, Jake and Chan are questioning him and Jake picks up a book with two men embracing on the cover, snorts and tosses it aside."I was thinking about ..."
I think Jake cannot believe that a relationship between two men can be of the romantic type.... For him, it is only sex and that's the way he wants to see it. That's my opinion. That's why I always pitied Jake. He was living a lie and he was probably going to suffer a lot for it. That was clear from the start, at least for me.
Calathea wrote: "Was he putting on a show for his partner to make sure everybody knew how macho straight he was?"You know, I didn’t consider that it could be just posturing, maybe even unconsciously. After all, he was terrified that someone could discover his secret.
I think it’s more than that, though. When he asks Adrien if he and Robert were together, he refers to them as “hump buddies”, he doesn’t ask if they were together, as a couple, he asks if they were having sex. Like there couldn’t ever be more than that between two men.
And I’m remembering just now how difficult it was for him to even kiss Adrien in ADF, because he’s a man. A kiss is very different than sex, it’s always intimate on some level, while sex can be intimate, but it’s a lot more easy to use as just a mean for physical release.
Susana wrote: "I think Jake cannot believe that a relationship between two men can be of the romantic type.... For him, it is only sex and that's the way he wants to see it. That's my opinion. That's why I always pitied Jake. He was living a lie and he was probably going to suffer a lot for it. That was clear from the start, at least for me."
Yes, it's difficult to hate someone that already hate himself so much and you just know he's going to be his own worst enemy.
I finished Fatal shadows and since I couldn't help myself I started with the next one.That's the real challenge isn't? That we have to wait until the right weak to read the next book..
I think it's both. Yes, he's putting on a show, even with the hump buddy comment, but he also believes that a normal relationship between two men isn’t possible. Believing that just makes the act easier. Underneath all that, he feels he should be punished for his homosexuality. He’s only been to the clubs and his partner, if you can call it that, is Paul Cane, who encourages that need for punishment. Jake doesn’t believe or want to believe that a normal, healthy gay relationship is possible for him, so he can't believe they’re possible for anyone else. To admit that would be allowing himself hope, and he’s not ready for that yet.
K. wrote: "I finished Fatal shadows and since I couldn't help myself I started with the next one.That's the real challenge isn't? That we have to wait until the right weak to read the next book.."
:-D
I'm gonna have the same problem, once I finish one book I can't really imagine waiting to start the next one.
We're going to suffer so much from withdrawal until So This is Christmas is out.
I'm so grateful that there're the Codas too.
Linda ~ chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny ~ wrote: "I think it's both. Yes, he's putting on a show, even with the hump buddy comment, but he also believes that a normal relationship between two men isn’t possible. Believing that just makes the act e..."You're probably right, Linda.
Human psychology isn't black and white and it's likely that Jake's behavior is a combination of his fears, internalized homophobia and state of denial.
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She is a wonderful character, isn't she!
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After Adrien's shop is burglarized, Jake and Chan are questioning him and Jake picks up a book with two men embracing on the cover, snorts and tosses it aside."
Oh yes. I, too, stopped at that bit (when Jake picks up a copy of China House, snorts and tosses it away). And yes, I saw his reaction the same way you did.
Here's the cover of China House, by the way.
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Adrien and Jake have this uncanny ability to creep up in my thoughts every now and then. It usually involves little H..."
Cool, Alan! Glad to have you here with us!
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This is so well said, Elena.
And about the “hump buddies” and the "boo hoo" bit — while rereading I find myself gaping at some of the things Jake says. Really?! I've forgotten how rude he managed to be.
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That's the real challenge isn't? That we have to wait until the right weak to read the next book.."
LOL, K!!!
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Oh yes, this sounds logical, Linda.
I think Jake has clear internalized homophobia. He can't deny his attraction to men even if it galls him so he gives into it on one level; sex and in sex only. And preferably sex that is not the "normal" one which I think helps Jake to keep things separated and balanced. In that way he can have his "normal" life; relationship with women, "normal" sex with him and be "normal" in his mind. And Adrien threatens all of that. Jake is attracted to him in a way he's probably never been before or at least it's stronger attraction than he's felt before and can not control it the way he has before. He knows relationship with Adrien would be what he longs for with women, a "normal" love relationship instead of the SM relationship box he's been able to put his "homosexuality" into most of his life. So no wonder he tries to belittle and antagonize Adrien (and himself). His carefully controlled life is being threatened. He's already giving into Adrien's allure, I mean, just look at Chan's reactions to Jake and the murder case.
Johanna wrote: "There's just something endearing about his words. How he uses the Sleeping Beauty reference, and especially about the fact that Jake has noticed the color of Adrien's eyes."Maybe he felt the color of his eyes in his solar plexus during that moment of no return. :-D
I am listening to the audio on my phone while reading along on my Kindle. I get to listen to Chris Patton's wonderful narration while being able to stop the audio and reread (savor) certain parts to myself before continuing on.
I just got to the part where Riordan shows up after Claude's murder and Adrien had spent the night with Bruce. I feel it was a pivotal scene and getting to know Jake and his struggles."Gay." Riordan made a sound of disgust. "What a stupid term." It's like he can't imagine homosexuality can be joyful and happy.
He slanted me a tawny look. "You don't seemed surprised."
"I've had time to adjust to the idea."
"Me, too but it still comes as a shock."
"So, do you have relationships with men?"
"Relationships?" He was sneering openly now. "Yeah. I have relationships with men. My father, my brothers, my partner. I have sex with queers. Don't confuse the two."
"Queers and men?"
"Sex and relationships."
"You've never had a healthy, satisfying homosexual relationship." It wasn't a question, but he answered it anyway.
"That's a contradiction in terms."
Poor tortured Jake. He makes it so hard on himself.
Johanna wrote: "Elena wrote: "On a totally unrelated topic, from the first pages of the series there're already clear signs of Jake's incapacity of seeing a relationship between two men as something more than anon..."I'm going to start depending on you to always post these covers! I always mean to go look them up, but then I get caught up in the story and forget. Thanks.
Loretta wrote: "I just got to the part where Riordan shows up after Claude's murder and Adrien had spent the night with Bruce. I feel it was a pivotal scene and getting to know Jake and his struggles."Gay." Rio..."
He really does. He's so afraid to admit what he wants that he goes out of his way to convince himself it doesn't exist at all.
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Great observations, Ame!
I love reading everyone's posts so much. This truly shows how sharing joy (of reading Josh's books) multiplies that joy! :-)
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Maybe ..."
:-D
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Your comment reminded me of the wonderful spreadsheet Jordan made out of ALL THE BOOKS, MUSIC & MOVIES MENTIONED BY ADRIEN ENGLISH. If you guys haven't seen it yet, you can check it out here:
http://www.joshlanyon.com/treasures/A...
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Oh wow. The heartbreaking accuracy and sharpness Josh draws Tara's character with! She's there only briefly, but so vivid with her pain and denial. It would be so easy to pigeonhole her as a total bitch after her phone call to Adrien, but Josh just doesn't make it that easy for us, does she.
Also — I find fascinating all the things we learn about Robert — and how we learn them, bit by bit. Again, I'm in awe how Josh paints a picture of a person with such variety of traits, both vile and admirable. And this is a person that we haven't even 'met'.
And Claude! Too bad we have to lose him in such early state. I love his super entertaining character — and Chris Patton does a marvelous job playing him! Seriously — if you haven't got the AE audio books yet, I wholeheartedly recommend them. It's not only that Chris's Adrien and Jake and both PERFECT — he also does a fantastic job with all the other characters!
Anyway, Claude's phone call to Adrien (when Claude has figured out where he knows Jake from) is priceless. "Detective Reargun"!? OMG! :-D
Loretta wrote: "I just got to the part where Riordan shows up after Claude's murder and Adrien had spent the night with Bruce. I feel it was a pivotal scene and getting to know Jake and his struggles."Gay." Rio..."
"Poor tortured Jake" is right.
I can imagine few things more tragic than a homophobic gay man.
To feel that kind of disgust and contempt for something that's part of yourself must be a horrible feeling to live with.
I get furious everytime I think of the damage done by the stupid prejudices and narrow-mindedness of society or family.
Life is already difficult as it is, why should some people have an ulterior burden put on them because of their sexuality, when they're not hurting anyone?
Sorry for the rant above.
On a lighter note, somebody quoted Lisa and I just came across Lisa and Adrien’s conversation on the phone:
”Darling, are the police after you?” my mother inquired when I picked up the phone that afternoon.
“No more so than usual. Why?”
“Because I had two police detectives to lunch yesterday –”
“Lunch? You fed them lunch?”
“Well, it was noon, darling. I couldn’t very well eat in front of them.”
“What did you serve them? Never mind. What did they ask about?”
I don’t know who’s better, mother or son. :-D
Johanna wrote: "The heartbreaking accuracy and sharpness Josh draws Tara's character with! She's there only briefly, but so vivid with her pain and denial. It would be so easy to pigeonhole her as a total bitch after her phone call to Adrien, but Josh just doesn't make it that easy for us, does she."That’s right, Josh's characters are always complex and real, even when they appear only for a few pages.
When I read the part of the phone conversation between Adrien and Tara, I thought how different Kate’s reaction was when she found out about Jake and Adrien.
I know Tara was mourning Robert’s death too, but Kate’s situation wasn’t easy either, yet she was so civil with Adrien.
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Weighing in on Jake's inability to imagine a romantic relationship between men as normal and healthy vs. bravado, I'd also go with inability at this point in his life. (I'm also thinking ahead to A Dangerous Thing when Jake is unable to kiss Adrien.) Well, things do change. ; )
I think next week I'll go writing down all the quotes I want to enjoy. Plus try to read more into everything imaginable since I've finished listening and there's a whole week until next book!
As I understand it Robert moved to LA to be with Adrien. He appears to have always loved him in his way. Not sure he'd ever be monogomous but I do think he did move to LA because of Adrien.
Mymymble wrote: "Elena wrote: "Johanna wrote: "The heartbreaking accuracy and sharpness Josh draws Tara's character with! She's there only briefly, but so vivid with her pain and denial. It would be so easy to pige..."Didn't Adrien explain to Tara that Robert's family and friends were in L.A.? I took that as true.
As for Adrien's guilt,.. I think the row was just the culmination of it. He saw Robert selfdestructing. And obviously wasn't able to help. Maybe he felt that he let him down and that in the end led to Rob meeting Landis.
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I just started my re-re-read. I'm listening to the amazing Chris Patton and reading along with him. His narration is just so good and I love Jake's voice.
Even if Adrien had reciprocated Rob's feelings and gotten together with him, that doesn't mean that Rob wouldn't have been killed. Landis was targeting them one by one. In fact, given how obsessed with Adrien Landis was, I think that would've gotten Rob killed sooner. I don't think Adrien feels guilty for that exactly because he knew a relationship between them would be a disaster. He might have felt bad he couldn't reciprocate those feelings. He definitely felt bad that they argued and those were the last words he said to Rob.
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I had the impression that way-back-when Rob and Adrien were just best friends exploring their feelings, perhaps for each other, but mainly exploring their sexuality. Neither self-identified as gay until after high school. It seems that's how Adrien looked at their past experiences, and Adrien wasn't interested when Rob indicated an interest in picking things up again after returning to L.A. By then, Adrien had ample evidence of how Rob's flaws affected Rob's life and affected others. Rob has been this high school golden boy, capable of great kindness and great unkindness. I think he returned to L.A. post-divorce because his home/family was there, and maybe without fully crediting it because Adrien was there, his old friend who had brought out the best in him. Because Rob's post-high school days showed up his inability to stick with anything — college, his job, his marriage, his lovers. So it's especially poignant that he was apparently so taken, so hopeful, with Landis.
Kudos to Josh that some things are left not fully explained. Why did Rob go back to the Blue Parrot? What would he have said to Adrien if he were still there?
An aside, notice how Adrien refers to "Rob" when talking to Tara, while she calls him "Bob"?
Karen wrote: "Robert is an enigma, as we only see him through others' eyes, and we only see that much after his death. His voice is missing from discussions of why he behaved the way he did in his life. I still ..."I did notice that Tara called him Bob and I thought that was strange. I know she was in pain, but what a complete witch she was in that phone call, hoping Adrien gets AIDS and dies. Yikes!
Karen wrote: "An aside, notice how Adrien refers to "Rob" when talking to Tara, while she calls him "Bob"?"Yes! It's interesting how that simple change in referring to him paints a very different picture of how the person saw him. Or is that just me? When Tara calls Robert "Bob" I see a not quite independent big boy, someone who's rather at home with family than out and about. That was not who he was at all, right? So Tara might be victim of some serious self-delusion.
Mymymble wrote: "Calathea wrote: "Mymymble wrote: "Elena wrote: "Johanna wrote: "The heartbreaking accuracy and sharpness Josh draws Tara's character with! She's there only briefly, but so vivid with her pain and d..."I think Adrien feels guilty after Robert’s death like most people do when they suddenly lose a friend or family member.
There’s always a certain amount of regrets, wishing you’d done some things differently and, depending on the circumstances, even thinking you could have done something to prevent it.
Adrien is processing his friend’s death and guilt is part of the process sometimes. At least, that's how I saw it.
Jordan wrote: "All these comments about Jake make me want to give him a big hug!"He'd certainly benefit from a little bit of "cuddle therapy". :-D
Calathea wrote: "Yes! It's interesting how that simple change in referring to him paints a very different picture of how the person saw him. Or is that just me?"I didn't go as far as imagining how she saw him, but I thought that the use of two different nicknames on Tara and Adrien’s part was pretty indicative of the fact that they saw different sides of Robert.
Not that one sides was necessarily more real than the other, just different.
Ok, today is the official start date to read Fatal Shadows. I will admit to starting to read it yesterday, but I only got one chapter in. And I recently was able to read The Boy with the Painful Tattoo, so yay! My Monday is looking brighter already.
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Yes, I, too, noticed that. A clever detail from Josh — it really makes you wonder about the two very different sides/lives Robert had.
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Oh, I like the way you think, Karen! Well said! :-)
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I was thinking about the same thing yesterday evening, but I'm only in chapter 13, so I don't have any answer to that yet... (and maybe never will, if that's one of the things we get to imagine all by ourselves).
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He'd certainly benefit from a little bit of "cuddle therapy". :-D"
LOL, Elena!
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Happy reading, Melissa! :-)
We've been a bit impatient here and we've already started babbling... But, I'm sure there will be enough pondering for the whole week. :-D
Also, Josh will probably pop in here later today with a question or two for us, so stay tuned, everyone. :-)
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That was such a nasty phone call! Yes, "yikes" pretty much covers it!
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Oh yes. What really made me sympathize Tara was when she comes to the bookstore to meet Adrien and during that conversation she says (concerning her joining the West Valley Academy a year later than others — and how those others tend to forget that): "I used to think it was because I fit in so well; like I'd always been part of the group. Now I realize it was because I made so little impression on his friends." There's something so naked about that comment and the way she states it very fact-like.
Tara is not a very likable character, but indeed a sad one.
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This is how my JL books tend to look during our rereads (I *think* this is All She Wrote). :-) Now when I'm mainly listening to Fatal Shadows I'm a bit lost without those life-saving post-its! :-D
So, yeah, taking notes and writing down quotes sounds good! Or maybe keeping the print version at hand's reach along with the audio...
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Fatal Shadows / A Dangerous Thing (other topics)Stranger Things Have Happened: An Adrien English Write Your Own Damn Story (other topics)
The Boy with the Painful Tattoo (other topics)
Here there be dragons (other topics)
Fatal Shadows / A Dangerous Thing (other topics)
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I loved that scene, it was one of the first times that I started seeing Jake as something more than a rude, homophobic, attractive asshole.
This re-read is making me notice just how much of an asshole he was at the beginning with Adrien. And probably the rest of the world, but he considerably improves with Adrien in the following books.
Like when they're talking about the chess piece found on Robert's body, for example:
"You and Robert play chess?"
"When we were kids. I haven't played in years."
"Why's that?"
I shrugged, replaced the piece on the table top. "I don't know. No one to play with."
"Boo hoo."
On a totally unrelated topic, from the first pages of the series there're already clear signs of Jake's incapacity of seeing a relationship between two men as something more than anonymous sex.
After Adrien's shop is burglarized, Jake and Chan are questioning him and Jake picks up a book with two men embracing on the cover, snorts and tosses it aside.
Knowing what I know now about him, it's sad to see him dismiss so carelessly what basically is a big part of what he wants from life.