Beta Reader Group discussion
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Writing Advice & Discussion
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Beta readers don’t have to be nice, but they usually aren’t experts.
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If a majority of your betas say the same thing, you have to start thinking about your market, unless you only want the book read by people who have similar circumstances to yourself. If that is the case, publishing on amazon etc probably isn't the right move for you.Your characters may be authentic to your experience, but you also want the majority of readers to be able to identify with them in order to enjoy the book. From your post, it appears that this isn't happening.
You asked the betas for their opinion, they gave it. Claiming their negative opinions are wrong, due to ignorance, racism or lack of diversity in their lives sort of defeats the object of the beta exercise.
To most authors, a beta is just a name and sometimes a location/photo if they are on goodreads. Who's to say those details actually reflect the reality?
I'm not afraid to be a contrarian, so here's a counter-argument. The whole purpose of using beta readers is to get their unique insight as to their experience reading your book. That's it. Period. Full stop. It isn't a beta reader's job to make your book better, or to highlight every dangling plot line, typo, or even to accept the author's point of view on anything that happens in the book. Once they've given you their honest feedback, they’re job is done. After that, it's the author's job to decide what criticism warrants looking into.If readers tell you that they had a problem with your character because they don't think they're true to life, that doesn't mean anything about the supposed lack of diversity in their life or a lack of melanin. That sounds more like sour grapes from an author who either a) chose the wrong beta readers to read her book b) missed the whole point that there's something with the character that’s giving readers doubts about their authenticity or worse c) has strong biases that doesn’t allow her to see beyond her own narrow view of the world in which she expects everyone else to conform to her dogmatic point of view and gets upset when they don’t.
I think it's way too easy to blame beta readers for hiccups during the beta reading process instead of looking inward and investigating whether or not the fault lies with the writing. It comes off as being entirely superior to discount the reader's experience on how they perceive the story to superimpose your personal belief system on that reader. Because whether authors want to admit it or not, the reader is always right about how they feel about a book.
Always.
Understand, we don't read books in a vacuum. Sure, the author is the one who writes the story. But it’s the reader who consumes it through their lens of the world. Readers always bring half of the equation to the reading experience because they have to filter the story through their imagination.
So on one hand, it is very possible that a reader may lack the real life experience of interacting with a wide range of people from a certain ethnicity to make an accurate statement about how people from a certain background behaves. At the same time, that doesn’t mean the reader isn’t right about how they feel about a character in the story.
Instead of berating your beta readers because they don’t live up to your superficial standards of “diversity” and “whiteness”, wouldn’t it make more sense to see if there is something that can be done with the story itself to address how they perceive your characters? Seems to me that saying everyone else is wrong because they don’t see the world the way you do is more of an attempt to stroke your ego than actually coming to terms with the fact that everyone is different and won’t always see things the way you want them to.
Personally, I would much rather have the opportunity to enlighten the reader that not everyone from a certain background adheres to stereotypical behavior as opposed to accusing them (in so many words) of either being closet racist or too ethnically challenged to understand my character.
It might be harsh to say this. But I think the opening post is loaded with a lot of junk that isn’t constructive, but rather comes off as bitterness over readers rejecting or being critical of the MC who the author has invested a great deal of herself in. At least that’s what it feels like.
At the end of the day, it's perfectly fine for an author to be upset with any criticism they get about their book. But it's equally okay for a reader to point out they had a problem with something about that book too. It's called having an opinion. Telling them they're wrong for not seeing things the author's way is absurd.
Don't like the way readers are consuming your book? Then go back and fix it so they can better understand it or at least acknowledge that they have a difference of opinion with the author about how a character has been portrayed.
On the other hand, if it really is an issue of a reader just not getting it because they don't want to. Disregard the parts of their criticism that doesn't hold up to scrutiny and move on to the good stuff. You wrote the story you wanted to write. Readers have to deal with the choices you made or go find another book to read.
I have immense sympathy for Annette.FWIW, my interpretation is that, Annette had hard-won expertise in certain situations and incorporated such in her writings. However, her beta readers, instead of expressing their critiques as for e.g. – “For me personally, this character (or this experience) didn’t match my expectations,” they dismissed (how dare they) her writing without admitting that they were doing so, disguising such an affront by pretending that they knew better. As an aside, they also didn’t know, or worse, weren’t interested in the possibility that the author could possibly be speaking from an authentic position. Finally, they imposed their own stereotypic ignorance instead i.e. their own personal imaginings were judged more authentic than the authors.
They even managed to compound their ignorance by referencing their evidence from their interpretation of third party persons, i.e. hearsay evidence.
There is little so disempowering and hurtful than to dismiss someone’s experiences. To compound that hurt by then replacing that valid experience with their feeble imaginings says more about them than it does about Annette.
Having said that, I do agree that in order to be commercially successful you have to know what your market wants and give that to them (however silly). And if they want make-believe characters in a la-la world, then you have to pander to that.
However, if your mission is to enlighten the ignorant, you might have to consider a more literary niche.
Whatever, I am sorry you suffered this insult, Annette, but I do hope it will speed you on to a determination to succeed. Success is, after all, the best revenge.
The beta readers were judging the book, a product, not the author. They don't know the author. For all they knew, the book could have been complete fantasy. The author could be a white norwegian chap or anything else for that matter.One of my beta readers (whose avatar on goodreads is a shapely young woman) is actually a late middle-aged bloke. As the avatar is white, I've assumed he is too, but that might not be true either.
Unless they were told the book was autobiographical, how else were the beta readers meant to judge it (which they had been asked to do) except from their own experiences/opinions?
Developing a thick skin, separating yourself from your work is an important step in being an author. If all you want from a beta is a pat on the head, what's the point?
As for 'insult and revenge' do you really think these betas were 'nasty' because they wanted to hurt the author's feelings, or because they intended to give private (not public) feedback to make the book better, in their opinion, which was what had been requested?
Zara wrote: "I have immense sympathy for Annette.FWIW, my interpretation is that, Annette had hard-won expertise in certain situations and incorporated such in her writings. However, her beta readers, instead ..."
The problem is that this is a second hand account based entirely on the author's interpretation of events. We don't really know that the beta readers said what we're told they said or the way they said it. Assuming, the OP is accurate and the readers did exactly what's proposed, then as someone else mentioned above, you still have to assume the racial identities of the beta readers were fully disclosed to the author. If that's the case, then the author is still making assumptions about the reader as to who their personal associations are and who they encounter on a daily basis.
Am I discounting the fact that there may be some validity to the claim that some of the beta readers were off base in making blanket statements about an entire race of people? No. That's why I said it's still important for the author to take whatever useable feedback she gets and dump the rest.
But the author makes a lot of generalizations about her beta readers, which, is not only unfair, but incidentally is exactly the same thing she is accusing the beta readers of doing.
It's too easy to start patting the author on the back and agree with her statements when we haven't a clue that they're even close to accurate.
But as I mentioned in my other post, if the author feels the beta readers were too dismissive of her character's portrayal, then either use this as a preview of things to come when her book is released, or go back and make changes that would further clarify why the character is the way she is, if needed.
What's not cool is her making assumptions that their background makes them unworthy of having an opinion. And when all things are considered, that's what they gave her. A reader's opinion not a treatise on race.
Maybe it’s just me, but I always try to qualify what I say by referencing my limitations. I, therefore, repeat: how lovely it would be if assumptions were not made dogmatically and if any critique was couched in words that admitted some ignorance instead of assuming infallibility.
It would be refreshing and constructive if the beta reader could realize that their dismissal of characterization/experiences could have been formed from a possible limitation of their experience rather than that of the author.
Annette was hurt. There was no need.
When anyone hurts another, whether through negligence or as a deliberate act, I think it says more about them than their victim.
Some poor souls do project their ignorances onto others as an exercise in unburdening themselves or as an attempt to display their power – we humans in our infinite variety are complicated creatures with complex motives that are sometimes hidden from even ourselves.
More importantly, I wish Annette every success.
I beta read for a black woman this year. I'm white. We both knew each other's skin colour. The point though, is that, it was irrelevant. I commented on the writing style, the strength of characters, the emotions evoked, the structure, the pacing, and specifically the intro chapters. Not for me to question the authenticity of her characters, but rather the way they were portrayed and how they interacted and developed. As I saw it.
There are ways of providing critical feedback that are constructive. Also, it's important to emphasise the strengths.
But, luck of the draw who you get as betas. Even, to some extent, when they are paid-for. The important thing is to look at their impressions, and unless they are factually wrong, consider whether or not to edit accordingly.
Zara wrote: "we humans in our infinite variety are complicated creatures with complex motives that are sometimes hidden from even ourselves."No offense, but it's this kind of circular reasoning that makes my head want to explode. Why impune a person's character by attributing to them motivations that you say the person doesn't even recognize in themselves? That's crazy.
Annette has no freaking clue who her beta readers associate with. She's simply assuming based on their avatar or photo that if they are white and don't buy into her character's portrayal that they mustn't have many black friends. That's absolute garbage and that's what I'm having a problem with. You can't assume anything about someone over the internet.
Again, I agree that one or some of her betas might have given her a generalization that she didn't like such as the reference to her character's hair or speech. I, too, would find it insulting if someone tells me that my black character doesn't speak like real black people because all blacks don't have the same level of education or dialect.
But it's nonsense to think that you can simply make these assumptions of a person's motivations or background and berate them for having an opinion you don't like. Oh, you can think whatever you like about other people. My point is, that doesn't mean you're right.
And Annette is probably as guilty as the beta readers she mentions by assuming things about them based off of their supposed ethnicity. That's all I'm saying.
Dear Kevis,Hope your body parts are still in tact and continue to flourish even in the presence of my words.
"Roughseas.." seems to express my points of view - probably better than I. So I have little to add.
When somebody has been unnecessarily hurt in the circumstances Annette described, I think it is appropriate to respond by offering sympathy and listening to what they have to say. Of course, she could be a total fruitcake. If so, we have all wasted out time and efforts.
Emma asked me if I thought the beta readers were deliberately nasty in order to hurt the author's feelings. That is why I tried to offer an explanation of our infinite variety which so upset you.
I could elaborate, but I would only attract sympathy for myself and that would detract from Annette.
BTW, I wish Annette well.
Zara wrote: "Roughseas.." seems to express my points of view - probably better than I. So I have li..."
Actually I don't have a strong view either way. I was sharing a beta read experience between two people where race wasn't mentioned. No more, no less.
I would comment on something if it was within my specific areas of expertise/experience, eg Roman history, Land Rovers, cancer services, local dialects.
Perhaps this emphasises the need for more clarity between beta readers and authors?
Zara wrote: "Dear Kevis,Hope your body parts are still in tact and continue to flourish even in the presence of my words..."
It's okay. Last I checked, eveything's intact and still flourishing. :)
I don't think that the post is discounting people's opinions of her work- she's just putting out a message that not every reader is the ideal reader nor are they the end all be all for knowledge in all aspects. Which is a fair statement. Although it does seem to be pointing at beta-readers I believe. :/ While I argue that readers may very well be right about how they feel-- I cannot deny that sometimes, that's not relevant to the author or even the story. Everyone is not meant to read everything.This goes more into picking out what's helpful and what's not. There are folks out there that would call Game of Thrones a historical fiction because it didn't have enough fantasy elements in it's early stages. There are folks that would call Sharknado a masterpiece to film. Although that's how they feel, it does not make it valid. When I act as a beta-reader/critic of someones work, I don't impress my social beliefs and experiences onto a story and expect it to adhere to them. I digest it for what it is and interpret what I can.
The only value to a story at the end of the day is whether or not it was compelling enough for me to continue in it's progression. If it wasn't, then I don't. That, for the most part, is a universal aspect that separates bad stuff from good stuff. But the act of generalizing and usage of it as criticism against a writer seems unjust. And asking a writer to adhere to one or even a small number of peoples opinions of how *insert demographs here* are 'supposed' to act is limiting their expression and isn't right, at least to me.
If the readers' personal biases and beliefs conflict with the story they are reading then they won't like it no matter what anyway, so it's really pointless to care about those kinds of criticisms or to voice them to begin with. It's a waste of time on both ends. I'd recommend writers make it more of a mission to know who's reading their work and identify who their target audience is. Also, invest in strong skin :/. It's sad but this is just a necessity; people will be jerks and sometimes very huge jerks and there's nothing to do except to keep going. I'd also recommend beta-readers be responsible by respectfully recognizing when it's time to close the book and walk away from something that they disagree with and can't ignore. Now, in the world of writers & beta-readers, I believe all criticism on the readers end is valued so the writer should try their best to be ready for whatever comes. But at the end of it all, the writer should still write the story THEY want to write about the way THEY want to write it to the best of their ability.
Emma wrote: "If a majority of your betas say the same thing, you have to start thinking about your market, unless you only want the book read by people who have similar circumstances to yourself. If that is the..."Well, actually about 90%of the betas praised the books, and those who did not said it was more the genre that they didn't like. Even the ones who didn't get the characters praised the plot and the characters that they did empathize with. Males, females, black, white,, and other love the story. Since this is a love story that males are getting excited to read I'd say the book is fine.
I was really only commenting on what I was commenting on.
Kevis wrote: "I'm not afraid to be a contrarian, so here's a counter-argument. The whole purpose of using beta readers is to get their unique insight as to their experience reading your book. That's it. Period. ..."Well, actually about 90%of the betas praised the books, and those who did not said it was more the genre that they didn't like. Even the ones who didn't get the characters praised the plot and the characters that they did empathize with. Males, females, black, white,, and others love the story. Since this is a love story that males are getting excited to read I'd say the book is fine. I was really only commenting on what I was commenting on, but I think your counter was fair for what you know of the situation.
I did ask each one what their ethnicity and gender was if it wasn't obvious. I specifically sought ought ones of all groups to see what the feedback would be. And for the ones who don't get what being black is I discussed with them what their experience was with blacks. No sour grapes since they mostly loved the book, and no assuming since I asked.
I wrote this post solely for people like you who reach so hard to give their opinion without considering that they are wrong at least once in a while, but thanks for offering your view on this topic. I appreciate it!
Zara wrote: "I have immense sympathy for Annette.FWIW, my interpretation is that, Annette had hard-won expertise in certain situations and incorporated such in her writings. However, her beta readers, instead ..."
You got! Thanks for the input!
Emma wrote: "The beta readers were judging the book, a product, not the author. They don't know the author. For all they knew, the book could have been complete fantasy. The author could be a white norwegian ch..."Well, biographical or fiction isn't the point. People ought to understand that many things are probable, and that's what I was writing this post about. Thick skin isn't the issue hence the part in the title that betas don't have to be nice. My best editors ( I had the book professionally edited before I used betas) were not nice. They honestly said the first draft was terrible! But they got that they weren't the expert in all things, and working from that mindset helped me to shape the story to one that people seem to like, unless everyone is lying.
The ones who don't get it are a small group compared to the ones who do. Even the ones who didn't get a character or plot point still praised the book.
When I beta read, like I mentioned earlier, I don't assume to be the expert. (Unless I'm reading a book about a topic that I know a lot about and the author doesn't. That happens) So I tell the author that anything is probable as long as it fits the parameters of the book if it's a plot point or setting. As far as characterization I stay quiet unless the author is inconstant with how they have written the character.
I work by my own rules, and I wrote this post in the hopes that others can get a better experience with their betas than I had with some of mine.
Kevis wrote: "Zara wrote: "I have immense sympathy for Annette.FWIW, my interpretation is that, Annette had hard-won expertise in certain situations and incorporated such in her writings. However, her beta read..."
I can assure you that any minority can tell very well and very early on a lot about how close another person associates with the group that they identify with. It's part of being a minority.
Stereotypes are true, it's just that they aren't always true. So I hired betas from all walks of life to get feedback. I am annoyed that I keep getting the same narrow minded feedback from the same type of person, white people. Not all whites though, but a certain type.
All in all that particular type will still like the book, but just won't get it. I was only writing this post to help other authors get a better more validating but not sugar coated experience.
I'm hardly nice when I beta read for my clients, but I do assume that they are the expert on everything in their book. All beats should, unless they are an expert. Even still there are many types of experts.
Thanks for chiming in on the discussion!
Kevis wrote: "I'm not afraid to be a contrarian, so here's a counter-argument. The whole purpose of using beta readers is to get their unique insight as to their experience reading your book. That's it. Period. ..."BTW some other authors who are saying the exact same thing.
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/five-...
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/opini...
Emma wrote: "If a majority of your betas say the same thing, you have to start thinking about your market, unless you only want the book read by people who have similar circumstances to yourself. If that is the..."BTW some other authors who are saying the exact same thing.
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/five-...
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/opini...
Zara wrote: "Maybe it’s just me, but I always try to qualify what I say by referencing my limitations. I, therefore, repeat: how lovely it would be if assumptions were not made dogmatically and if any critique..."
I was hurt, and based on the opinions of some of the other commentators, I was right in why I was hurt. This is a white world that superficially cries for diversity, and yet pushes real diversity away. So I know I'm opening up my book and me to criticism based on white privilege, and not "bad writing".
The ones who didn't get it didn't get it based on a lack of experience and nothing more. All minorities in all areas of life have this struggle, but when we say anything whites tell us to have thicker skin, do a better job. etc. It's frustrating, but then there's one like you who actually listen. In my experience with whites that very rare.
BTW some other authors who are saying the exact same thing.
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/five-...
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/opini...
Roughseasinthemed wrote: "I beta read for a black woman this year. I'm white. We both knew each other's skin colour. The point though, is that, it was irrelevant. I commented on the writing style, the strength of characters..."I've had plenty who read the story like you did, and that's all I'm asking for. Thanks for chiming in on the discussion!
Sajai wrote: "I don't think that the post is discounting people's opinions of her work- she's just putting out a message that not every reader is the ideal reader nor are they the end all be all for knowledge in..."You got exactly what I was saying. whether the betas get a part of the story or not the books have been praised. Males like my love stories, so that's a great accomplishment. This wasn't about my feelings being hurt over my writing, but my continued hurt feelings over being a black woman in a white world. That's all.
I'm not the only one saying this. It's just that whites don't listen, in general. Some other articles on the topic.
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/five-...
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/opini...
Annette wrote: "I wrote this post solely for people like you who reach so hard to give their opinion without considering that they are wrong at least once in a while..."I replied to your OP primarily because you were making generalizations about your beta readers (and beta readers in general). Although your responses have been well-thought out, competently argued, and eloquent in its delivery, you continue to make blanket statements about masses of people simply because they don't think or behave the way you want them to. Nearly every single thing you've said in this thread proves that the problem has to do with your own internal biases and how you feel people who don't look like you treat you.
My beef is with your generalizations of people, not your response to your beta readers comments. You say your problem is with a certain type of people--whites. Then you say all minorities in all areas of life know your struggle. More generalizations. You have no idea how every single minority thinks, because you aren't every minority. You can't speak for every Asian, Eskimo, Pacific Islander, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, or even black person in the world. You can only speak to your experience, and yes, those who feel the same way you do. I don't doubt that you were sincerely hurt by some of the feedback you got. I never claimed otherwise. In fact, I agreed that I would have taken odds with someone telling me that my character wasn't authentic too.
I'm just saying that your opening post seems a lot less about beta readers expertise or lack thereof than it does about your own personal issues with race. That's the point I was making.
P.S.: Just to be clear. I'm not upset. I'm just pointing out something i noticed as an addendum to some of the things you said that I consider insulting, if not inflammatory.
Thank you, Annette, for the links to these articles, which were both recently published in April and June 2016 by a reputable organization. They're extremely informative and relevant, especially this quote:"Thankfully imprints do exist that depict fiction with leading men and women of color. But in the United States, the publishing industry tends to shelve these titles under the all-encompassing “African American,” category, instead of by genre or trope. This perpetuates the incorrect (and for the authors, financially limiting) assumption that all stories written by black people are the same, and worse, that if you are not African American you will not be interested in them."
Kevis wrote: "Annette wrote: "I wrote this post solely for people like you who reach so hard to give their opinion without considering that they are wrong at least once in a while..."I replied to your OP prima..."
It seems that since others understood what I was saying that what I said was understandable. Maybe you'll get it one day. Until then I'll just paste on Alex G's excellent response.
"Thank you, Annette, for the links to these articles, which were both recently published in April and June 2016 by a reputable organization. They're extremely informative and relevant, especially this quote:
"Thankfully imprints do exist that depict fiction with leading men and women of color. But in the United States, the publishing industry tends to shelve these titles under the all-encompassing “African American,” category, instead of by genre or trope. This perpetuates the incorrect (and for the authors, financially limiting) assumption that all stories written by black people are the same, and worse, that if you are not African American you will not be interested in them.""
Alex G wrote: "Thank you, Annette, for the links to these articles, which were both recently published in April and June 2016 by a reputable organization. They're extremely informative and relevant, especially th..."You got exactly the point I was making, but not just for blacks but all ethnic minorities.
Annette, your generalisation that 'whites don't listen' assumes personality traits based on skin colour.That's the definition of racism.
By asking for a breakdown of ethnicity from your beta readers you are immediately positioning people by race, not as individuals.
If I found an aspect of your characters behaviour odd, or unlikely, would you assume it was because I'm white?
If I did like them, would it be because they were well written and despite my race, I was an anomalous white, one that was capable of listening?
The article you point to says its wrong to position books by African Americans in one genre, essentially that its wrong to assume only African Americans would enjoy books written by members of their own ethnicity, but from your posts that's how you are positioning your own work, that 'whites don't listen'.
Emma wrote: "Annette, your generalisation that 'whites don't listen' assumes personality traits based on skin colour.That's the definition of racism.
By asking for a breakdown of ethnicity from your beta readers you are immediately positioning people by race, not as individuals..."
Exactly.
Annette wrote: "It seems that since others understood what I was saying that what I said was understandable. Maybe you'll get it one day."Or it could be that you're not listening. I never called into question the genuineness of your feelings to the response you got from beta readers. You have every right to feel however you want to feel. I even agree, to a point, that some beta readers do make the mistake of automatically assuming authors don't know what they're writing about. What annoys me is that your tossing out all of this race stuff to condemn, and that's exactly what it is, people who don't see the world through your eyes.
I don't doubt for one minute that some people may struggle to understand the nuances of your character or her racial identity because it may be out of their scope of understanding. It's the same way I write books that predominantly feature female protagonists. But I would never in a million years presume that I know the first thing about what it's like to be a woman. That would be a ridiculous position to take based on the fact that I have xx chromosomes. I can try to empathize with the plight of women and their experiences, and have spent my entire life doing so. But I can never make the claim that I truly know what it is to be a woman because that's outside of my experience.
So there is some truth in saying that if you're not a particular ethnicity or race, you most likely can't understand what that's like on an intimate level. But the opposite is also true, you can't assume you know what whites think because you're not white. You can make an observation, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're even close to being right.
It doesn't matter if other people in this thread want to go along with everything you're saying just to make you feel better, or if they genuinely think they're making the world a better place by trying to show sympathy with a black woman. You wear your biases right on your sleeve, but because you're taking on the victim role, you can't, or don't want to see it.
Again, my stated point is when you go on a public forum and make generalizations about an entire race of people, or in this case, several different races of people, don't be surprised if someone calls you out on it.
And for the record, I totally get what you're saying. I'm just not inclined to bow down to the altar of racial grievances because it's the trendy thing to do. Or because you feel that those who don't lack diversity in their lives.
Hi Everyone,What a fascinating trail of posts!
If I may make a definitive pronouncement as the world's pre-eminent authority on all matters pertaining to literature (and any other subject, for that matter): the reader is always right.
The purpose of a beta reader is to let you know how they, as a sample of the reading public, reacted to your book. If they, with no knowledge whatsoever of nano-quantum-spectroscopy, or butterfly DNA, or gender politics in 16th century Portugal, report that your meticulously researched descriptions of those subjects seemed unrealistic, then what they are telling you is that your words are capable of creating unrealistic impressions in the mind of readers. You shouldn't blame them for the impact of your words.
My advice is to treat every beta reader as a proxy for real readers. If you encounter a beta whose reactions you don't like, then you ought to conclude that at least some real readers would react that way too.
Clearly you 'know more' than your reader does about the characters, plot and setting- you invented them! But that is entirely irrelevant. What counts is the impressions your words create in the minds of your readers. Feel free to blame the betas for being 'bad' readers, if that makes you feel better, but if you do you are missing the point, which is that your job is to refine your words to create the impression you want to create- it's not the reader's job to change their mindset to suit you.
Best wishes,
Marco
Marco wrote: "Hi Everyone,What a fascinating trail of posts!
If I may make a definitive pronouncement as the world's pre-eminent authority on all matters pertaining to literature (and any other subject, for ..."
I think you missed the point of my post. Readers are limited in what they know, and to based their being right on their whiteness is my issue. The most ignorant ones are the most vocal. I referred to two articles above that corroborate my issues with what you said.
When I beta read for others I assume they are right, unless something falls under my "expertise." This isn't philosophical or even a literary issue as much as it's racial and evident in the literary world.
White people balk at the word nigger or someone like Trump, but they're quick to tell minorities to have thick skin or lighten up or listen to their valid way of thinking when faced with covert racism.
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/five-...
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/opini...
Emma wrote: "Annette, your generalisation that 'whites don't listen' assumes personality traits based on skin colour.That's the definition of racism.
By asking for a breakdown of ethnicity from your beta read..."
I'm assuming it based on growing up with them, befriending them, going to school with them, living with them, and dating them. I'll tell you something about minorities we can tell who's comfortable or knowledgeable about our ethnic experience based on very little. All of us, and just because you want to argue which totally proves my point, doesn't make me wrong! But I'll bet you could ask any ethnic minority about this and they'd agree. So go do that and see how correct my generalizations are!
Have a blessed day!
Kevis wrote: "Annette wrote: "It seems that since others understood what I was saying that what I said was understandable. Maybe you'll get it one day."Or it could be that you're not listening. I never called ..."
"And for the record, I totally get what you're saying. I'm just not inclined to bow down to the altar of racial grievances because it's the trendy thing to do. Or because you feel that those who don't lack diversity in their lives. "
I think you like to hear yourself talk, but since you made me laugh I'll leave you with this.
You and Emma are like a blind person who has always been blind, and who complains to their friends who can see why they always describe things using colors. The blind can't see colors like we do, so they are oblivious to the description.
Anyway, you seem to enjoy being blind, so read the articles I linked, keep arguing away and keep giving me something to amuse myself. And keep standing up straight, girl! At this rate you'll be so stiff the next wind will break you in half!
Annette wrote: "Anyway, you seem to enjoy being blind, so read the articles I linked,"I don't like viruses, so I don't click on strange links.
Annette wrote: "And keep standing up straight, girl! At this rate you'll be so stiff the next wind will break you in half!"
I may have posited a different opinion than you. But i never insulted you. But obviously you're starting to lose your cool, so I'll gracefully bow out of this thread so you can continue your diatribe on how smart you are and how dumb and racist everyone who doesn't agree with you is.
What a truly informative conversation for this new author! I have utilized betas for my book and have found each of them wonderfully helpful even if the feedback wasn't always valuable. Some betas have told me my characters are unlikeable and unsympathetic and others have offered diametrically opposite feedback. When I'm deciding whether or not to value the feedback, I DO judge the betas: perhaps they weren't really fans of [genre], perhaps they don't like pithiness, perhaps they don't like ambiguous heroines, perhaps the positive betas are just being kind, etc. I think Annette's point is valid for that reason: we have to know what the betas motivations are to make a determination whether or not to value the feedback. I mean, I'm definitely curious why the beta would describe the child's hair as ratty--unless the scene involved the child rolling around in hay and mud--when the author thought it was more aptly described as long and coiled.Kindly
Mickey Ann
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When I used to read for fun, who has time for that these days, I always preferred books that taught me something new. Anne Rice wrote about vampires, but I learned about New Orleans and Celtic history in her books. Stephan King made me more intimate with the way of New Englanders. Even the Baby Sitter Club books taught me about lives of divorced kids and being a Jewish teen. I read for fun and to learn, and I still start a book with the idea that the author is more of an expert on their book than I am.
Based on my dealings with beta readers everyone isn’t like that. My first book is about a depressed Louisiana Creole (ie black) woman who marries an English aristocrat (ie totally white). I based her on me and did a lot of research New Orleans, England, The English aristocracy, neuroscience/surgery etc because I had to. As far as her being authentically black and dealing with depression that was all personal experience. So picture my shock as beta after beta tried to tell me how inauthentic my characterization of her was!
Some said, “Black people don’t act like that or talk like that.” Some declared that, “When my mother, friend, milkman etc went through that they didn’t have that reaction.” One even called one of the bi-racial children’s hair ratty when I had described it as coily and long. Basically, some betas narrow minded reactions left me more than annoyed.
People go through similar events and traumas because really the human experience is more generic than it is unique. It’s our personalities that make our life events distinct. Millions divorce but they’re all different. Millions give birth, but it would be insulting to tell any woman that her experience was like another woman’s. That’s just not 100% possible. So what gave my betas the right to tell me that my black characters were odd or wrong? Their whiteness and lack of diversity in their personal lives.
Just to be clear a lack of diversity doesn’t make one a racist. I know a white woman who is covertly racist and married to a black man, so go figure. But a lack of diversity does mean you need to consider that you don’t know enough to tell an author that something is wrong with their characters or the plot. It’s always better to say, “Well I didn’t know this,” because a beta reader is not usually an expert. They are a person who gets paid to read many types of books.
I'm guessing that some would say, “Isn’t that why you hired them? To get their opinion?” Well, yeah, but telling an author that something isn’t probable just because they’ve never experienced it is ignorant. Or telling a person that they wouldn’t do that or that’s not that was done in their life is to forget that one is beta reading about characters that are not them. Betas need to always be aware that these “fictional” people are not them or anyone that they know and read the story as a story.
I’ve had some betas who were experts on an area I touched, and their help was appreciated. Mostly, though, the ones who “just didn’t get it, had very limited experiences about life. Which is totally fine! We are all ignorant. The brain can only hold so much in working and stored memory (I love neuroscience), so by default the world’s knowledge will not fit into one human head. Even geniuses are lacking.
When I read my client's work I assume that they are the expert, unless of course, it’s obvious that they are not, but that’s another matter. In short, all I’m saying is that when you beta read others’ work remember that they probably know more about the characters, plots, and setting than you. You are probably not the expert, so don’t act like it.
https://www.facebook.com/BetaWitches/
http://www.annetteabernathy.com/beta-...