21st Century Literature discussion
This topic is about
My Name Is Red
2016 Book Discussions
>
My Name Is Red [Retro Read] - Chapters 01 to 25, Some Spoilers Allowed (November 2016)
date
newest »
newest »
I read the opening approximately 50 pages last night and really enjoyed it. It might be just me, but I find I am reading more slowly than I normally would. I think part of this is because the culture is so different to my own so there are lots of things that I don't quite grasp or that I stop to think about. Also, it's a fairly complex book with all the different people and their relationships. I have a feeling a picture/chart might help!I'm liking the different narrators, although they all seem to talk the same way as one another. I like the way it gives us different approaches to the story and it's working for me so far.
Finally made it through Chapter 25. There is one big thing that is challenging me with respect to this book but it isn't the changing narrators. First are the historical references - leader names, artist names, art styles, wars, customs, religion, etc. I am not at all familiar with them and can't shake the feeling that things would make more sense if I was. The changing narrators and relatively short chapters so far are helping me not to put the book down and move on to something else, although I do keep seeing how much more I have to go and hoping I start to like it better!
I take back my comment about the narrators sounding the same - I am further through now and the voices are starting to be more distinct for me.
Mod
Spoiler alert - I am using this to refresh my memory about what has happened in previous chapters. Clearly, it's a major spoiler if you read summaries of chapters you haven't read yet! Also, it seems to me to miss the point of some of the chapters. But it is often enough to remind me of who has done what so far. Hugh, it might serve as a refresher for you.http://www.encyclopedia.com/arts/educ...
I'm also finally past chapter 25. I am liking the changes of narrators so far it is something interesting and it is fun to see different points of view of the same situation. It was confusing for the first 2-3 chapters but I got used to it after that.I am also not familiar with any of the history or artists that are mentioned and wish I knew more to maybe appreciate better, but I like to be learning about the miniaturists and this type of art as well.
Mod
So far, the stuff about art is the most fascinating thing for me - such a different approach to those cursed Europeans! I was left thinking for a long time about the idea that "style" is just an indication of imperfection.
Yeah, I find it fascinating as well. I've never studied any Turkish or Persian art but these illustrations and miniatures do resemble Chinese and Korean art of the same time I think. They pay more tribute to the subject of the paintings and the stories being told than the artist, which is the complete opposite of what we praise in art now in the West. But at the beginning of the renaissance it wasn't the artist who was important either, it was the person in the portrait. Anyways, very interesting stuff.Hmmm I haven't thought about the "style" but it makes sense if they didn't want any individualism and that's partly why they didn't sign any of their paintings.
All up there are 12 narrators of the 59 chapters each offering their first-person experiences. There is a lot of depth in this book, of which the use of various narrators is one technique. Other examples (so far) are the differences on the use of style, time and memory in Eastern and Western art; Persian, Arabian and Turkish storytelling; and the fine line between what is allowed in Islamic art and what is not. Any book that starts with a corpse talking and a dog saying humans are less rational then it is, has my attention.
I am fascinated to return to this book. As several of you have said, it seems to assume the reader to have at least a little awareness of so much history. The multiple, layered generations of governments and cultures is a challenge for many of those of us of American education and backgrounds to wrap our minds around. I jumped to the end of my copy tonight and took a look at the time line laid out there, indicating the setting of this novel is 1591.Since this is my third "read" of the book (mostly listened the first two times), I indulged myself tonight a bit with the final chapter. I smiled at them and shall share here the final words. I'll put them in spoiler format, but I don't really think they are, for those of you are curious. They seem to me to suggest a bit of the mindset of our author, placed in the mouth of one of the characters, and aren't too bad to consider as one reads this elegant sequence of words, metaphors, images, stories, esoteric tidbits, ....(view spoiler)
Having read his Snow, it fascinated me to realize how much Pamuk uses similar images and allusions for snow in this book -- cold, white, covering evil, obscuring like a fog, a path is left--at least for a time--when trudging through it, ..., probably others that I haven't identified. I did not notice such in previous reads. I wonder now why the imagery of snow is so powerful, so useful to Pamuk.
Must find some maps -- p 23: "All these artists, I learned, were impoverished and overcome by the futility of their lot. Not only in Tabriz, but in Mashhad and Aleppo, ..."
Here's a starting place for various map views. Far from satisfactory, but a start: http://www.maphill.com/syria/aleppo-h...
Calzean wrote: "...Any book that starts with a corpse talking and a dog saying humans are less rational then it is, has my attention"Same thing I thought! It is not common to have a book start with a corpse talking, definitely made me want to know what was happening right away. I am a bit sad to not see Elegant Effendi talk as a spirit a bit more (I'm currently on chapter 35) but I guess we have enough narrators as it is for now.
Lily wrote: "I am fascinated to return to this book. As several of you have said, it seems to assume the reader to have at least a little awareness of so much history. The multiple, layered generations of gover..."I haven't read "Snow" yet but it's on my list now. I am enjoying the winter and snow feel in this book, makes me want it to winter already here in Philadelphia.
Jessica wrote: "...I am enjoying the winter and snow feel in this book, makes me want it to winter already here in Philadelphia...."Oh, please! I am still paying landscaping bills. Snow plowing ones can wait awhile! Besides, some trees still have lovely yellow or red leaves around here. Incidentally, the snow in "Snow" can become a rather overwhelming figure of speech, used in so many, many ways by Pamuk. I wish I could decipher all the nuances and implications.
Jessica wrote: "Calzean wrote: "...Any book that starts with a corpse talking and a dog saying humans are less rational then it is, has my attention"Same thing I thought! It is not common to have a book start wi..."
Agreed! With Halloween and All Saints Day just past, I had been musing about what books have characters talking from the other side of the veil of life, from Dante's Comedia to classical and mythological journeys to and from the Underworld to the "haint" in my f2f book club's current read to the oft schmaltzy "light at the end of the tunnel" stories to Nobel author Pamuk's opening here. Not sure whether to include the narrator of The Book Thief. Possible "spoiler" to some: (view spoiler)
Lily wrote: "Oh, please! I am still paying landscaping bills. Snow plowing ones can wait awhile! ..."Hahaha I know I know. He just makes snow sound so nice and poetic even when talking about a city I don't know. I know when it really starts snowing I will be over it quickly hehe. Do you think "Snow" is a good winter book? or it wouldn't really make a difference?
Lily wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Calzean wrote: "...Any book that starts with a corpse talking and a dog saying humans are less rational then it is, has my attention"Same thing I thought! It is not common to have..."
That's very interesting. When I read the opening of this book what brought to mind was the last few chapters of The Song of Achilles, that we read in the group last year I believe. Adding it as a spoiler: (view spoiler)
I'm almost done with this section and at first had a bit of trouble following the narrative and the multiple changes. The repetition of narrators is helpful, but I found myself continually having to flip back to understand what I had read before based on subsequent references to the characters and actions in the book. The characters are all interesting and nuanced but at this point none of them are really captivating me. The men seem rather simple minded and one dimensional. What was the traditional role of women in this book? Whatever it was, it seems Shekure thinks she is above it. It seemed preposterous that every single man who saw her would fall in love with her!
I agree with those about the art history being fascinating in this book. I'd love to see examples of the detailed work described. Is this still a thriving practice in Turkey?
Dianne wrote: "The men seem rather simple minded and one dimensional."Diane, I'm glad you made that comment. I've said something similar on the thread discussing the final chapters (Don't look! There may be spoilers!). I found the behaviour of the men in the book almost childish (although with rather more adult consequences!). I don't know if that is a deliberate thing by the author?
Mod
I think the structure of the book consciously echoes traditional Eastern story-telling (Arabian Nights etc) too. I would have to re-read the book to comment on the depth of the characterisation, but maybe that says something about the book, since my memories are more about ideas than characters.
I just started the book and I'm a few chapters in. I could definitely have done with a family tree or a character list at the beginning.
Lily wrote: "Here's a starting place for various map views. Far from satisfactory, but a start: http://www.maphill.com/syria/aleppo-h..."Thanks, I too have been trying to picture the places they talk about. I also like the floor plan of Enishte's house that's included in the book. When various characters talk about different rooms, it makes a stronger connection to picture it.
Hugh wrote: "I don't count myself an expert on the background to this book (the Ottoman empire, Islamic art etc.) but I think one thing Pamuk was interested in is the history of the Islamic view of art and the ..."Hugh, I was just thinking today that a big part of Pamuk's story is the point in time that represented a transition from traditional Islamic art that was "pure" in the eyes of Allah and the move toward more representational art influenced by the Chinese and Venetian artists. The miniaturists' struggles, competition and betrayals of each other (not to mention murder!) illustrate the controversial nature of this transition.
I'm on about chapter 28, listening to audio with a hard copy to reference for clarification. In the introductory thread I mentioned that this book is work!! I feel less so now that I'm in the rhythm, but as many mentioned the culture, places, names, religions, etc. are not familiar to me. On the one hand that makes it more work and on the other, I am loving learning about all of this.Hugh asked what we feel about some chapters being narrated by non-humans. I think each of these (the dog, the coin, the painting of death, e.g.) serves to tell us more about the surrounding culture of the time - I like those chapters. Esther is almost like a Greek Chorus of one who is providing commentary on the proceedings in a way we're not getting from the first person accounts from the others. I think the non-human chapters also provide a little of that.
This is probably the most unusual book I've read in a long time and that fact contributes a lot to my enjoyment.
Suzy wrote: "This is probably the most unusual book I've read in a long time and that fact contributes a lot to my enjoyment..."Yes indeed.
Mod
Suzy wrote: "I'm on about chapter 28, listening to audio with a hard copy to reference for clarification. In the introductory thread I mentioned that this book is work!! I feel less so now that I'm in the rhyth..."Enjoyed your comments, Suzy. Thx!
Now that I have gotten a couple of other necessary reads out of the way, I am back to this one. It is at least my third pass through this book, and I am going to take it slow. I clearly did surface reads previously. Not sure I will consider this one a "close read" either, but had fun today -- text in one hand, I-phone with dictionary and Google applications alongside. New words, but more words encountered too seldom to be certain of their nuances. All sorts of places and historic figures with whom I am completely unfamiliar, so did a lot of dipping into Wiki links and masses of images. As in traveling to Europe, I was profoundly aware of history much deeper that the 240 years of the U.S. or even the 600 of European Americas. Although the novel is set in the 1500's, it reaches back much further.
21st Century Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
The Song of Achilles (other topics)The Book Thief (other topics)
Snow (other topics)
The book has an interesting structure. The narrator changes at the start of each chapter (and some of them are not human). I would be interested in your initial impressions of how this worked, and whether you liked it or found it confusing (or both). Any other thoughts or initial impressions welcome.