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message 1: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Well, That’s Your Interpretation!

Have you ever heard the above statement?

Perhaps you have even said it.

The problem with this thought is that it essentially nullifies ALL of the Bible!

“But how?” You might ask.

This statement indicates that no one can really know the truth and relegates the Holy Bible to nothing more than a matter of opinion.

You might not be aware of it, but this is in line with a modern theory known as “Postmodernism”. This theory basically says...

ALL claims to truth are valid and therefore, if absolute truth exists, no one can really know it.
____

The above is an excerpt from a brief Bible study entitled, "Understanding The Bible". Download this one page PDF file study for FREE at this link:

http://www.christ-like.net/sitebuilde...


message 2: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Jesus said...

John 16:13 - "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth..."

I don't believe this means we automatically possess all truth, but it does mean that we have access to it, and with God's help we can know it.

What do you think?


message 3: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert - well, you finally made a statement that makes some comprehensive sense. The Bible is indeed the inerrant Word of God and must be studied voraciously to unlock its mysteries. However, it's a blanket compendium of universal moral truths applicable to all of mankind. What is missing from your endless Biblical quotations is any meaningful reference to the necessary step the individual must take to focus God's will toward the unique pathway each Believer must carve out. That step, of course, is prayer where the temptational stumbling blocks of each Christian are addressed solely in an actionable manner. Broad-based decrees are fine for life's overarching difficulties, but prayer is the only way to address, in a Faith consistent approach, the niggling little Satanic pokes and probes that beset us all.


message 4: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Robert - well, you finally made a statement that makes some comprehensive sense. The Bible is indeed the inerrant Word of God and must be studied voraciously to unlock its mysteries. However, it's ..."

My response: Thanks for your opinions.

Prayer is indeed critical to understanding the Word of God... but it does NOT trump the Scriptures. If one desires TRUTH they are to pray, search the Bible, and trust the Holy Ghost to lead them.

Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, whether those things were so."


message 5: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments 2 Peter 1:3 - "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

ALL THINGS certainly includes spiritual TRUTH!


message 6: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Robert - you miss the point! For reference sake, let us say my predominate sin is anger. The Bible is chock full of examples where anger, usually coupled with pride and/or envy, becomes the undoing factor for some unfortunate character in a Scriptural scenario. However, while my anger may burn with the same intensity as my Biblical counterpart, the reasons or motives behind it are decidedly 21st, not 1st, century generated. The Holy Bible is indeed universal but, just as it doesn't address scientific advances, it couldn't anticipate the pitfalls of modern society. That's where prayer is the ONLY vehicle specifically tailored to cope with ancient sins taking a modern twist.


message 7: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "Robert - you miss the point! ..."

God says quote: Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily , whether those things were so."

You say "Look to the 21st century person..."

God says "Search the Scriptures..."

Who do you think I plan to listen to?


message 8: by [deleted user] (new)

Robert D…I read your Bible study…very good…I agree with your excellent points that the Word of God is knowable. A few questions for both Roberts:

When Abraham leaves Haran and is walking to Canaan, God is displacing the normative plans Abraham would have pursued in Haran, with a new life-script Abraham could and would never have dreamed up or contrived on his own.

Question 1: Is this same theme of God displacing our ways with His ways…containing the cross of Christ…common to every journey of faith in the Bible…found anywhere else in all of human literature of any genre…ancient or modern?

Question 2: Is this the same theme being addressed in Prov. 3:5-6, Mt. 7:13-14, Jn. 16:13, and Jn. 6:29…to cite only a few similarly connected verses?

Question 3: Is a God-composed, biblical-quality journey of faith the timeless element that brings the “he will guide you into all truth”…into every successive generation of believers, and relevant in every cultural setting…now and in the distant past?

Question 4: Does Jn. 10:35 equally apply to the biblical narrative stories of faith as well as the “laws and the prophets”…that journeys of faith as patterned for us in the Bible will lead us into all truth (by definition truth is exclusive…affirming the opposite is being exclusive) through the handiwork of God in our lives?

What do you think?


message 9: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "Robert D…I read your Bible study…very good…I agree with your excellent points that the Word of God is knowable. A few questions for both Roberts:

When Abraham leaves Haran and is walking to Canaan..."


My response: Excellent thoughts Barton, and thanks for your encouraging comments.

If I am understanding your thoughts accurately, I agree. Perhaps it can be summarized by God through Isaiah...

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


message 10: by [deleted user] (last edited Oct 19, 2016 07:35AM) (new)

The discussion of this thread starts with a few great, thought-provoking questions...

Is truth absolute and does John 16:13 mean that Christians through the Holy Spirit can discover truth...

and...is the God-invented biblical vehicle of a journey of faith timeless in all successive cultures since the time of Abraham to our present day.

Yes Isaiah 55:8-9 is perfect...can I attempt to take it farther?

In a biblical-quality journey of faith...our faith is important...but God's faith in us is the key motivating element...it makes us want to be better...to do better...this is an amazingly mature and sophisticated concept found in ancient literature...fundamentally timeless.

Is a God-composed adventure of faith as patterned in the Bible...from Abraham onward through Paul...the optimum vehicle for actualizing John 16:13?

...and does this validate the divine origin of the biblical narrative stories of faith because they fall outside of human contemplation and ingenuity?...because they contain this element of Isaiah 55:8-9...of the cross of Christ?

Thanks for a good discussion. Bart


message 11: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "The discussion of this thread starts with a few great, thought-provoking questions... Is truth absolute and does John 16:13 mean that Christians through the Holy Spirit can discover truth..."

Here is another thought, you mentioned both our faith and God's faith in us... even "our faith" is a gift from God.

Romans 12:3 - "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

A walk of faith is certainly an adventure!


message 12: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Barton - your questions are indeed thought provoking and I would answer most of them with Scripture just as Robert D. artfully does. However, in general, Old Testament faith does not quite line up with New Testament faith for the obvious reason that Jesus had not been earth-bounded to open Yahweh to all. God walked very closely with Abraham giving him huge directives and sending him angelic hosts for guidance. Few Christians can truthfully boast such an experience. So, we are left with a Holy Book for direction and prayer for honing in on specifics versus a largely secular and skeptic world. Yet the Truth IS available to all - just don't expect heraldic trumpets or ticker tape parades when you find it; your reward will be a slight uptick in inner peace, but the grand prize is deferred until the afterlife.


message 13: by [deleted user] (new)

To keep an interesting internet discussion going...I agree with both Roberts. The part b of Romans 12:3 says clearly (I had forgotten this verse in this context...thanks) that our ability to exercise faith comes from God, and yes...faith in the Old and New Testaments is different.

My interest here is in trying to gage the novelty of the idea understood or not fully understood in Christendom today that the cross of Jesus Christ...God displacing Abraham's normative plans with His unimaginably higher plans...repeated in greater or lesser extent in every biblical adventure of faith...is found in the Old and New Testaments...even though the relationship changed slightly (?) after Jeremiah 31:31-34 actualized for the early Christian church.

The idea that a God-composed adventure of faith would be the timeless vehicle God would use...through the leading of the Holy Spirit...to bring Christians into a revelation of "all truth" of John 16:13...seems to me to be a partial answer to the initial question of the know-ability of truth and its biblical resistance to becoming outdated due to cultural progress.

Am I placing too much emphasis on this concept...the timeless feature of God-composed journeys of faith now and in the past...and is this idea impactful for all of Christianity in a way that is currently falling short?

What do you think? Thanks, Bart.


message 14: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Faith is surely an adventure; however, I am not totally convinced of "God-composed". I would lean towards "God-orchestrated".

God knows everything (omniscient) and therefore orchestrates events in our lives that lead (without usurping volition) to His outcomes.

I do NOT believe that God FORCES His will upon anyone; otherwise, as you have noted, no true Christian would be "falling short" of it, would they?


message 15: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Barton - I think in this case Truth is restricted to matters of Faith. I'm a scientist but because I'm also Christian I might think it proper that God vouchsafe to me the innermost secrets of the universe so elusive to my colleagues. However, my understanding of Christ's dictates don't indicate this event will transpire (nor, in reality, has it!). Nonetheless, I manage to unevenly progress toward a point where science and Faith comingle within my worldview. This is NOT because I understand science better (I'm old and my ideas are fairly fixed); it's because I possess an ever-increasing Faith. So, my prescription for not "falling short" is not to abandon what knowledge the individual has attained in his mortal adventure, but to let Faith illuminate and expand it. Christianity today is more of the replacement variety where one is supposed to cast off all he knows in favor of waiting around for God to deliver all wisdom. This passivity is rarely rewarded and you might have just as much success with a tab of LSD!


message 16: by [deleted user] (new)

To both Roberts...interesting comments and perspectives.

To Robert D.---I agree God does not force His will on people...the Holy Spirit is characterized as a dove. Someone once said to me I think correctly...that the blend of God's higher will and way with our free-will is a mystery.

But the calling of Abraham must be a God-composed life-script...as are the other life-scripts of the biblical people of faith...otherwise how do they or we rise up above the horizontally conventional? This to me is the mystery of the supernatural work of God in our lives that validates its divine origin...even when we can look back in hindsight and see the hand of God in the events of our lives before we knew Christ.

To Robert C.---yes, no one should wait around in inaction. But I see the cross of Christ active in every character of faith in the Bible...displacing our ways with His higher ways.

The intriguing and timely question of this thread, and what caught my attention to enter into the discussion...is our interpretations of scripture and how does the Holy Spirit lead believers into the "all truth" of Mt. 16:13...which is a promise from Jesus that this will occur.

Without repeating myself...I think that "part" of the answer here is given to us in scripture through the pattern of journeys of faith composed and orchestrated by God...within this mystery of a joint-venture walking with God.

My question about falling short is whether the Christian church as a whole grasps the fullness of this Mt. 16:13 promise, involving Bible study, prayer, fellowship, patience, listening, and at some point a recognition of engaging in our individually crafted journeys of faith.

I have read each of your short bio's. I would judge that each of you recognizes your own unique adventures of faith and God's hand in crafting them...to Robert C. the biology teacher...analogous to the unique body-plan lifestyles of every living creature...lion, cheetah, or leopard...similar yet distinct and discreet in physical characteristics and lifestyle habits...as are our journeys of faith.

Sorry for the long length of my post. Am looking down and seeing that I am on my soap-box. Welcome your insights. Bart


message 17: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "But the calling of Abraham must be a God-composed life-script..."

My response: I guess I need to know what you mean by "God-composed"?

Are you saying that God "forced" Abraham's life in a certain "script"? If so, are you saying that God caused Abraham to LIE (half lie) about Sarah being his sister?

Please clarify.


message 18: by [deleted user] (new)

Hi Robert:

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths" (Prov. 3:5-6) implies that God has our life-plans pre-written. This is where the mystery of our joint-venture walk with God comes in...a blend of God's higher ways with our voluntary free-will.

Otherwise what is God referring to in Isaiah 53:6 when He equates going our own way as going astray...and as part of the iniquity laid upon Jesus at the cross?

When David said in Psalm 23 that he walked through the valley of the shadow of death...did he get there by random chance or did God take David there by design?

How does God deliver us from "going astray" other than by a God-composed journey of faith...uniquely crafted for each one of us inline with the narrative stories of faith in the Bible?

In Genesis 12:1 when God calls Abraham to leave his home country and travel to a land that God would show him, this to me is the start of the biblically unique joint-venture journeys of faith I see in Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Daniel, Esther, Ruth, Peter, John, Paul, Barnabas, Silas, etc.

In our times, when a person is called to be a missionary to Africa or the Amazon rainforest, or to become a pastor, or has a clear calling into some secular field needing Christians (the entire world)...for anything really beneficial to happen that person cannot be empowered by self-energy and self-direction alone. To have supernatural results requires a supernatural game-plan.

That is how I would clarify and define a God-composed journey of faith...a joint-venture between both parties...an invitation from God according to Mt. 7:13-14 and Mk. 8:34-35.

About Abraham and lying about his relationship to Sarah...Abraham is called the "father of faith"...not the "father of righteousness." I suppose one of the main points of a journey of faith is to take imperfect people and "move the ball forward"...which highlights the need for a divinely crafted life-script of events and circumstances to get us there.

Thanks for your comments and interaction...this is a critical issue for me and the reason I entered into the discussion. Bart


message 19: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments I agree that it is in some way a "joint venture". The way that I look at it is...

...God is so Sovereign that He gets His will done WITHOUT usurping our will .

I believe that He accomplishes this based on His foreknowledge of all things, just as He says in His Word.


message 20: by [deleted user] (last edited Oct 26, 2016 10:02AM) (new)

Good morning...I am enjoying the discussion.

At issue in this thread is the verse that the Holy Spirit will lead Christians into the all truth of Jn. 16:13...and that this is not relativistic truth according to personal interpretation.

The law of non-contradiction in logic for the evaluation of truth-claims...says that either the Holy Spirit will lead Christians into all truth according to Jn. 16:13...or that He will not.

Without splitting hairs, I do not see how God could enact adventures of faith in our lives without usurping our wills...with our willing assent and cooperation...God as navigator and co-pilot as an analogy.

For me this is one of the key concepts in the biblical narrative stories of faith...God displacing our plans with His higher plans.

Simply foreknowing that I am drowning in sin does not solve the problem...coming into my life to do something about it with a new and much better life-plan (journey of faith) composed by God just for me...is I believe the basic message of hope the God of the Bible offers to us.

As you are a street preacher, I know you are experientially very familiar with this concept...although I sense you are choking on the wording of a "God-composed journey of faith life-script" which I am trying to get a handle on.

Other than a few key verses mentioned in past posts...Isaiah 53:6, Mt. 7:13-14, Prov. 3:5-6...I don't think the Bible explicitly mentions "journeys of faith" but rather implies them throughout. John 14:6 implies that the way of Jesus is the correct way...and not our way. Mark 8:34-35 implies that in denying ourselves that God is inserting something else in place of our way.

Is Ephesians 2:10 a general statement applied to all Christians...or can it be meant specifically to each individual Christian according to our unique gifts, talents, and callings...or both?

Whether people realize it, this is one of the concepts that apologetically separates the Bible from all other philosophies and religions...that of a real and active God who is able to displace our plans with His higher plans...with our willing consent and cooperation.

I hope I am defining a God-composed journey of faith more clearly for you...as I am clarifying my own articulation of this concept.

And I hope this is falling within the spirit of what threads like this one are supposed to accomplish.

Thanks again, Bart


message 21: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "Without splitting hairs, I do not see how God could enact adventures of faith in our lives without usurping our wills..."

My response: If this is true, then would you say that God is a failure in the lives of Christians that do not demonstrate victory in Jesus?

If God "usurps" the will of Chrisians, would it not be logical that every Christian's life would be an AMAZING SUCCESS?


message 22: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "Simply foreknowing that I am drowning in sin does not solve the problem..."

My response: God not only knows that you are "drowning in sin", He also knows your response to the help He offers. He also knows whether you will accept His help, reject it, decide to do things your way, etc.

God's amazing omniscient foreknowledge is unbelievably sovereign.


message 23: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "Is Ephesians 2:10 a general statement applied to all Christians...or can it be meant specifically to each individual Christian according to our unique gifts, talents, and callings...or both?..."

My response: I believe that this applies to ALL Christians individually. Herein is my evidence that God does NOT usurp our will. If He did... NO Christian life would be a failure!


message 24: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Barton and Robert D. - it is readily apparent that both of you are deep into your "journeys of Faith"; I applaud you and wish you Godspeed. My journey seems a little more convoluted as I must deal constantly with the secular element in my field, Biology. I believe it scientifically unwise to cede automatically unknown phenomena to God until all reasonable natural explanations are explored. But, this is on a grand scale. At the individual level, (where Faith emerges) a Christian simply must get a grip on what is within his sphere of influence and what is in God's. This constitutes the backbone of our joint venture with the Lord. It's a matter of degrees - no one turns his entire destiny over to God, we all want to maintain a level of control of our destiny. If we are willing (hard for a scientist) to realize a supernatural influence is constantly at work behind the curtain (no, not the Wizard of Oz!), then much of the apparent randomness begins to take shape as a semi-predicable odyssey.


message 25: by [deleted user] (new)

This is where I think a thread like this can be so valuable---it helps to identify other people's perspectives...and how important and difficult definitions are.

To Robert C...not to get off course, but yes biology is a rough and tumble contact sport...not many Christian believers there. I have two step-sisters with PhD's...one in biology and one in physics...hard to be an effective Christian apologist when there is such a strong spirit of unbelief in the air.

Have you read Douglas Axe, Stephen C. Meyer, Jonathan Wells, Michael Denton, Michael J. Behe, and Phillip E. Johnson (forgive me...I am not name-dropping)...all excellent proponents for intelligent design in the field of biology...all with PhD's.

To Robert D...yes, if God is in the driver's seat and has the steering wheel then failure would be His fault. I see God sitting in the passenger seat "sitting shot-gun" with the directions of how to reach the destination...I suppose any analogy will be too simplistic.

Again...Abraham could not dream up his life-script...God did. Joseph could not have possibly dreamed up his life-script...the two early prophetic dreams did not contain the precise future details of how his life would unfold...in Potiphar's house and in Pharaoh's dungeon. Moses did not compose the game-plan for how to liberate the Israelites from under Pharaoh's control. Joshua certainly did not come up with the battle-plan to bring down the walls of Jericho...

...skipping forward...Paul has a world-class rabbinical education that is above reproach as he and Barnabas visit new synagogues...yet Paul also has super-humility that is not condescending to the idol-worshipping Gentiles in the Greco-Roman world as a result of God's forgiving grace toward Paul for being so wrong in persecuting the church...a two-pronged advantage for Paul that he could never have self-orchestrated ahead of time.

All of these realities require the foresight of God...thus the need for God-composed journey of faith life-scripts...with us sitting in the driver's seat and God sitting beside us with the travel directions.

Hope this pushes the ball forward regarding Jn. 16:13...it has certainly helped me clarify my own thoughts on this matter...the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth. Thanks, Bart


message 26: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "Again...Abraham could not dream up his life-script...God did. Joseph could not have possibly dreamed up his life-script...the two early prophetic dreams did not contain the precise future details of how his life would unfold..."

So Bart, do you think Abraham, Joseph, and others could have made NO CHOICES that would have altered there lives?

Or, do you think God knew what choices they WOULD make and so orchestrated the events in their lives, so as to reach His desired results?


message 27: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Barton - I've explored intelligent design from many angles. My conclusion is that it is largely impossible to add Faith to science. There is really no applicable test one can run to either prove or disprove a hypothesis based on the supernatural. On the other hand, adding science to Faith works IF the science you're talking about is solid. Psychology, sociology, economics, ecology, environmental biology and large swaths of evolutionary biology need not apply. After all, God MADE the really concrete natural laws of physics, chemistry and genetics. Nonbelievers, of course, will substitute their sudden awareness of existing phenomenon as a discovery only their excessive brainpower could have unearthed, but that is the unfortunate human condition. Humility is the key here, and since most scientists are largely socially inept and secretly jealous of their gregarious counterparts, they cocoon themselves in their atheistic universe as a defense mechanism.


message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

To Robert D...this is the type of feedback I need...thanks. I was having trouble figuring out your objections then I thought it might have something to do with predestination, election, free-will, etc. So I went to my source for these questions...Introducing Christian Doctrine by Millard J. Erickson...who usually sheds light on the various sides of an issue while not always dogmatically taking sides.

So in referring to a "journey of faith life-script" I think I am describing something that transcends above Calvinism or Arminianism...in the sense that the divine creativity of God can combine His sovereignty and our free-will in a way that is and probably will be a mystery to us here in this life.

Skipping ahead past Abraham or Joseph...I believe that in the Garden of Gethsemane...Luke 22:39-46...in verse 42 where Jesus says "...if thou be willing...remove this cup..." that here (as always) Jesus has complete free-will to walk away from the challenge and abandon His calling and mission.

But what is astounding to me...and hopefully thought-provoking for both Roberts...is that first God could even compose a life-script that would challenge His divine character at the exact point where we have the most trouble...taking up our cross...and second that the decision of Jesus the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world...to go forward with His calling...is not fatalistic.

I suppose this offers a dilemma for both Calvinism and Arminianism as they relate to predestination, election, free-will, etc. My take at this point is that the life-script for Jesus transcends above our comprehension because God exists outside of time and we are stuck in this time dimension.

I welcome your thoughts. I think this still relates very closely with Jn. 16:13 and how the Holy Spirit achieves this.

To Robert C...like your comments...I am too far removed from science to have a first-hand perspective like you...I have to rely on the opinions of others and then weigh them...my expertise is in building construction.

But the case for ID...from the quantity of information content and its cohesive integration in the little I do understand about DNA code and the complex cellular machinery of proteins and amino acids...I think is compelling...seems way beyond what cumulative selection could assemble...despite what Dawkins says...but this is a topic for another thread.

Thanks, Bart


message 29: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Hi Bart,

I am neither a Calvinist or an Armenianist... I believe what the Bible says and try an not force it to fit my dogma. Having said that, I can readily see both sides in play throughout the Scriptures.

This is why I see God's election based on His stated condition of foreknowledge... and God knows (and foreknows) everything.

1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

To me, God is far more Sovereign if He accomplishes His will WITHOUT usurping ours. Thus, knowing all things, He orchestrates our life circumstances and accomplishes His will without FORCING it on us.

Blessings in Jesus' Name,
Robert D


message 30: by [deleted user] (last edited Nov 02, 2016 02:40PM) (new)

Hi Robert...good discussion. I am not a Calvinist or an Arminianist either...I don't think...but they each have something valid to say.

I think we are agreeing on the big points...I too think God has perfect foreknowledge and that He does not force His will upon us...does not usurp our will.

If I may continue the discussion slightly further...going back to Jn. 16:13...what is the "mechanism"...the how...that the Holy Spirit uses to lead Christians into all truth?

Yes..."He orchestrates our life circumstances and accomplishes His will..." but how specifically? Simple prior foreknowledge by God does not create a commonality of purpose...does not close the gap between God and us in terms of orchestrating life circumstances.

If we willingly surrender "our will" to a specific higher calling...like becoming a missionary or running for political office...according to a divine leading that did not previously occur to us...this I would not describe as God "usurping" our wills...if willingly and voluntarily surrendered to God's "orchestration."

Am I creating a distinction without a difference?...or do the narrative stories of faith in the Bible tell us more about the callings of God as it relates to taking up our cross and following Jesus to a place we might not at first want to go?

Your thoughts are important to me because I want to see if we can close this gap...either semantic or real...on this idea of Jn. 16:13 and how specifically the Holy Spirit prosecutes this critically important function.

Thanks, Bart


message 31: by Robert (last edited Nov 02, 2016 05:20PM) (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "If I may continue the discussion slightly further...going back to Jn. 16:13...what is the "mechanism"...the how...that the Holy Spirit uses to lead Christians into all truth?..."

I believe that the following, trusting in the Holy Spirit's guidance, sought prayerfully, is the answer to this question...
__________________

Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily , whether those things were so."

The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth via the Bible, the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit, writing through Luke, commends the Bereans for testing Paul's teachings with the Scriptures!

If it is fit for the Bereans to check out what the apostle Paul preached... how much more should we check out what others are preaching or teaching.
__________________

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Holy Spirit wrote the Scriptures through men... surely this is the prime method for Him leading us into all truth.
__________________

I have heard people over the years say that the Holy Spirit taught them something that was contrary to the Bible...

...THAT IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT!


message 32: by Izaiah (new)

Izaiah Dawkins (EagleIProphet) | 51 comments I would have to agree because the Holy Spirit is the character of Christ,so he won't contradict himself or his law.


message 33: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Izaiah wrote: "I would have to agree because the Holy Spirit is the character of Christ,so he won't contradict himself or his law."

Amen!


message 34: by [deleted user] (new)

Hi Robert and Izaiah...agree with everything you wrote...but you are not digging deep enough...through scripture.

A John 16:13 led journey of faith is never contrary to scripture. The Holy Spirit would never...cannot...is not capable of leading Christians into anything other than all-truth.

Phil. 2:12-13: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

This describes what is occurring in Paul's own Christian life that produced divine scripture...the dynamic blend of God's sovereignty and our free-will working together in action.

What Paul is describing here has to be correct as it is scripture...the working out ourselves and God working in us has to be a true mixture...a mysterious blend that we may not fully understand now.

Gal. 2:20: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

I think this describes an adventure of faith for Paul...not of his own making...otherwise why be crucified with Christ?

Paul here is describing his life-experience...of John 16:13...while he is actually composing divine scripture to the Galatians.

Both studying the Word and living the Word through action...as Paul is describing here...is the mechanism I am suggesting for John 16:13...not merely a head-knowledge of scripture.

Have read your bio Robert...so not suggesting head-knowledge in your case.

The narrative stories of faith in the Bible are all scripture...they describe active journeys of faith...with human failures mixed-in...but with positive outcomes when people follow their script willingly and voluntarily.

A person who states that the Holy Spirit taught them something contrary to the Bible is mistaken and confused.

The Father, Jesus the Word, and the Holy Spirit cannot contradict themselves.

Which is the leading question that started this thread...human interpretations.

Bart


message 35: by Izaiah (new)

Izaiah Dawkins (EagleIProphet) | 51 comments True thanks for those references .


message 36: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Barton wrote: "Hi Robert and Izaiah...agree with everything you wrote...but you are not digging deep enough...through scripture..."

My response: I would say that these passages...
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Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily , whether those things were so."

The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth via the Bible, the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit, writing through Luke, commends the Bereans for testing Paul's teachings with the Scriptures!

If it is fit for the Bereans to check out what the apostle Paul preached... how much more should we check out what others are preaching or teaching.
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2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
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...are IMPOSSIBLE without this passage...
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Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:"


message 37: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments As for "human interpretations"...

2 Peter 1:20 - "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation ."


message 38: by Izaiah (new)

Izaiah Dawkins (EagleIProphet) | 51 comments Robert, you read my mind brother.


message 39: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Izaiah wrote: "Robert, you read my mind brother."

LOL! Amen!


message 40: by Izaiah (new)

Izaiah Dawkins (EagleIProphet) | 51 comments God is great that way


message 41: by R.J. (new)

R.J. Gilbert (rjagilbert) | 93 comments Pardon the intrusion, but perhaps I may offer another perspective of the "journey" archetype--my journey.

My family is very deep into science...and theology. My dad was a missionary in Africa and an electrical engineer. My siblings are all very intelligent and have thrived in their fields of medicine and aerospace engineering. I, on the other hand, have struggled with a spiritual journey that has led me in a direction that always seems to go the opposite direction of what others measure as "successful" and "intelligent." I was raised to follow the "Holy Spirit", and unfortunately, it has led me into the uncharted shadows between science and religion.

A few years ago, amid a series of discussions on sub-atomic physics with my intellectual family, I stumbled across a philosophical perspective that combined both religion and science. One of the connections involved the origins of Cosmic Background Microwave Radiation and a new interpretation of those first few sentences in Genesis where God said "Let there be light" and then gathered that light into mass-type behavior. It actually makes more sense, and seems to indicate that the author of Genesis had an actual vision of the unfathomable physics at work in the beginning of our universe.

Unfortunately, the words I started using to describe these fundamental concepts, though based on Biblical scriptures, also parallels some of the philosophies in other religions. The question arose: did God also reveal His Creation to people in other parts of the world and at other times in history? This seems to contradict the (in my opinion) somewhat arrogant assertion within the Bible that God has chosen to only reveal Himself to Israel (well, and Pharaoh, and Nebuchudnezzer, and..."PAY NO ATTENTION to this HERESY!")

Anyways, I have always been somewhat of an outsider simply because I think outside that tiny little box people like to put God into. But to use philosophical words from other religions, and to suggest that God might have tried to contact other cultures--does that make me some kind of antichrist? Even if it has succeeded in creating a bridge between our faith and the findings (the empirically-proven ones) of science?


message 42: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Science that contradicts Scripture is WRONG.

God tells us the source of sound doctrine... ALL SCRIPTURE.

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Which empirically proven facts? If you read science text books from 20 years ago... many of the "facts" do NOT match the "facts" in this years text books.

For that matter, contemporary "experts" do NOT agree with each other on the "facts".

Coffee is a simple example. One expert will say it is good for you... the next expert will say it is bad.

BOTTOM LINE: If your doctrines come from any source other than the Bible... they will not be sound doctrines.


message 43: by R.J. (new)

R.J. Gilbert (rjagilbert) | 93 comments The next time you get into a jet, consider how much of the "facts" used to build it came from the Bible. Yet it flies. It flies 100% of the time.

There are no experts to say a jet will fly. It does. It is proven to fly by flying.

Now I do agree that textbooks will change (I've read that the Cuban missile crisis was caused by both a U2 and an SR71), but the textbook that engineers use to design and build the aerospace industry is not going to change like that. There may be more added, perhaps (I know Boeing just added Wi-Fi technology to its newest econo-liner), but the fundamentals of flight are still in there, same as they always were. That's because they're based on the principles of lift and thrust and aerodynamics--principles God created...but didn't bother to put into the Bible.


message 44: by Robert (new)

Robert Dallmann (robert_dallmann) | 1569 comments Robert wrote: "The next time you get into a jet, consider how much of the "facts" used to build it came from the Bible. Yet it flies. It flies 100% of the time. There are no experts to say a jet will fly. It doe..."

My response: There would be NO JET if God had NOT created EVERYTHING.

Besides, the Scripture I quoted is referring to SPIRITUAL truth... not aerodynamics.

My issue lies with people who RE-WRITE the Bible because it does not agree with their scientific facts.

If there is disparity between the Bible and science...

SCIENCE IS ALWAYS WRONG... NOT THE BIBLE!


message 45: by [deleted user] (new)

Well we have veered off course here but that is okay...love the intellectual back-and-forth...thought-provoking.

To Robert G...I too come from a scientific family...two PhD step-sisters and an aerospace engineer step-father. I do not have the time to formally study science...my expertise is in building construction...have 8 books published...4 by McGraw-Hill...so I rely on reading Christian books on science in what I would call the "orthodox" viewpoint.

I would suggest a great short-length book I just finished by John C. Lennox...triple PhD...called God and Stephen Hawking. Would also recommend Undeniable by Douglas Axe...also PhD. Lennox has debated Dawkins and Hitchings.

I agree with Robert D---everything must be compared and evaluated with biblical scripture.

Some great examples of getting our beliefs "more" in-line and straight (which applies to all of us...me as much as anyone):

Acts 18:26 "And began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

Acts 19:2 "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

Mark 1:22 "And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes."

Thinking outside the box is I believe an admirable trait...but must always be according to scripture...one of the opening points of this thread...John 16:13.


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