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I had little understanding of feminism when I was younger. I can recall uttering as a teenager...."I don't believe in women's rights I believe in equal rights!!".anyway there's a lot of people out there that are good just uninformed and it's those that we/you/all of us can do something about.
arseholes who genuinely believe women are beneath men, I don't think there's anything anyone can do, their time to learn that were all equal and important(when they are growing up) has passed.
also I would venture a bet and say that the majority of bad comments on YouTube are from people who haven't even reached the age of majority yet. grown ass men have better things to do with their time then troll I would hope.
reading nasty comments always gets me down and sometimes we just have to remember there's 100 good people out there or more for every genuine shithead.
In my opinion :-) which I know is a bit on the cynical side
Robert wrote: "I had little understanding of feminism when I was younger. I can recall uttering as a teenager...."I don't believe in women's rights I believe in equal rights!!".anyway there's a lot of people ou..."
I agree with you that there are some (in fact a lot) people who haven't matured enough and should be ignored because they only try to get you down from the position that you are on (my own experience). But HeForShe is about making every person in the world agree that gender equality is necessary, right? I don't think such persons should be kept aside because they are the ones who cause negativity to prevail in our society! If we change them, they can change their followers!
PS-I became a feminist when I was 13, due to some incredible people who were there to explain what I considered to be inexplicable. ;-)
I do wish for 100% compliance to equal rights. People before us have gotten the ball rolling, we're here to keep it rolling and grow it. Hopefully one day enough people will be of like mind that inequality will be a thing of the past.
I'm just not sure how to motivate an individual to change. we keep on what we're doing and be here when they want to change themselves? education is one of the most important things but not everyone is even willing to educate themselves which is an alien concept to me. just random thoughts... :)
There are actually a lot of disgusting and cynical comments on the thread some even are atrocious emough to actually call women inferior...I am stating it euphemistically. Some are even posting vulgar comments in a sexual context. It made me incredibly frustrated that feminism despite having acquired an audience has not been able to justify its motto.
Mind you....a poster on another thread I was viewing down the song bulleya...a new release...said that nowadays rapes are increasing bcoz women are getting more freedom to sexualise....mind you its an indian chauvinist male we are talking about. He says that women are being raped because they show a lil bit of skin how convoulted is that. And the other posters are bashing the film coz it has an older woman romancing a younger man. I mean the actress is one of the world's most beautiful woman 42 going on 29 while the dude is 33. They look amazing but the actress aishwarya rai is inappropriate bcoz she is old irrespective of how she looks.
In the wise words of a certain popstar... "Haters gonna hate". I think in the face of such behaviours, the best stance is to remain firm and unwavering. Emma and her peers probably know that a small portion of the population somewhere on the Internet is badmouthing and belittling them, yet they don't let it affect them (at least in appearance). They keep their focus on the campaign. Yes it is not enough, and we should be trying to find a way of convincing the haters. But for that to happen they should at least be willing to engage in a real conversation, with real arguments. And I don't think they are ready for that, because let's face it, they have no real argument... I agree with Robert: educating oneself is primordial in using one's brain to understand the world and the issues we are facing today.On a completely different topic, wasn't Aishwarya also the victim of haters when she didn't lose the pregnancy weight immediately after the birth of her daughther? Our world is seriously f**ked up to expect unrealistic "perfection" at all times from women who are in the public eye. And you would never guess that Aishwarya is 42! She is stunning and intelligent, whatever her weight!
for any who are unaware... the comment sections in places like you tube are sometimes trolled not individually but as a group or even competitively to see who can illicit the largest response. some of those comments may not even be the express views of those trolls. It's a game to some.
Hi All! I've been on YouTube for like a decade now, following different channels as well as just an internet user in general. I think this might explain "trolling" and other concentrated negativity you see online.If you would imagine some arbitrary effort level required to interact (comment or share or like) with a certain online post/image/video as a value, say 5 (as an example), then only those who would comment are those who have some view point and also care enough to reach that minimum level of 5.
For a vast majority of people, they don't reach that level. As an example, videos with millions of hits have only thousands of comments. Meaning there is some order of magnitude between those who are just going to watch and those who interact.
Now if you highly value your view point (on feminism or on racism or whatever) you're more likely to react extremely to things that do or don't adhere to your view point, therefore more likely to reach that minimum effort of 5 and then comment.
Then, like Emma said above, you add in trolls and flamers who are just going to stir trouble. What you end with is a non-representative segment of the total population doing all the commenting, but that segment is filled with extremes on both sides and all the pot stirrers. This leads to a pretty toxic environment in most cases.
Meanwhile those who have a more mild reaction one way or another are not going to reach that minimum 5 level to interact. That silent majority should be the real focus. I don't necessarily have an answer on how to reach them but they are the true converts. Those who are the extremes are less likely to listen and are probably set in there ways. Trying to reach them would take massive effort for unlikely results. The silent majority should be the target with projects like HeForShe.
Some communities can avoid the trouble, but what you need is a majority of vocal proponents who are not too extreme. Therefore, rather than escalating against hateful rhetoric or just plain agitators, that vocal majority simply mitigates. You can find niche communities like this around various parts of the internet. unfortunately, if those niches become too popular, you often find the same issues of extremes and trolls crowding out the majority.
I'm also not sure if the aim of campaigns for gender equality should be to reach for those people who make hateful comments. Maybe it makes more sense to reach for people who have conservative views and would not identify themselves as feminist but who are at the same time ready to talk. People who are ready for a respectful conversation between equals. People who listen to you and who can be convinced by arguments.But I don't think that campaigns for gender equality should focus on those people who insult and hate. Because those people want to silence us. They feel that they are superior and that women have less value. They prefer privilege and power over arguments and they defend their privileges by violence. Maybe there comes the day when even those people who hate can be convinced but I have no idea how this can be done. And I think it's important to focus on your priorities and pace yourself. So I guess it's better to try convincing people who may be conservative in their views but who don't hate.
And I also think it's important to change our internet culture. There are so much haters who intoxicate our conversation and who silence people's arguments by hate. Or maybe they aren't so much in numbers but they often dominate the conversation because they are so loud and aggressive. There need to be built alternatives to this hate culture on the internet. People who have arguments and who exchange arguments between equals have to be supported and empowered. And the haters are the ones who should be silenced.
Im glad over the years ive learned to tune out and ignore haters/trolls to where it no longer bothers me. At the end of the day some people are simply going to be who they are whether in real life or on the web. Just got to sort through the rubble and trash and try and connect with those who have open minds and a willingness to work for a better world in which everyone can be equal. To focus to much on the negativity is just emotionally draining and not worth the headache and generally will get you nowhere with people who are not willing to listen. Just got to rise above the fray as they say.
well not focusing on unreasonable haters is a pragmatic approach coz they like racists are a minority yet an egregiously vocal one.....but the very fact that you are a self proclaimed feminist inspires an ad hominem response from most people....they simply can't dissociate the concepts of man hating etc from it irrespective of how many times emma reiterates it. and if you go down the threads of the guardian, or any media outlet you will observe that people seem to be fed up of it, and that is due to the dilution of what we stand for by dissimulatory articles and the attachment of double standards and narcissism to the cause.
There is much to discuss on the subject of trolling both on specific medium like youtube or more generally. But in terms of feminism and its goals it is a distraction. The best course of action is to make positive comments on the subject itself not as a reaction to any actual comment made by the troll(s).They are only ever looking for attention and seldom relevant to a discussion.
Ross, I would generally agree with you that it's better to ignore the trolls and haters. But the problem is that they are very loud and aggressive and that's why other voices are silenced by them. And the more the trolls and haters scream, the more sensible people are marginalized. So I think it's not enough to just ignore trolls and haters. And it's not enough to just make positive comments. I guess you have to respond to them in one way or another. But I have no clue what could be an effective way. Sometimes humour can be helpful to cope with trolls and haters. But does anybody here have experiences with successfully pushing back the haters?
Actually I have Sascha. Fell foul of some MRA on twitter. I have found if you have the time use reasoned debate don't swear or get emotional. They will resort to insults and get bored. Some may engage and and if they have any real argument you can have a discursive debate.But as I said not sure if it moves the cause forward much. Famous people like Emma do have resources we do not but I'm the end talking to people at least sympathetic to the idea of gender equality us a better use of time for us all.
I don't think the feminist movement can do much about men who are already sexist assholes. We can't do much to change their opinions on women. What we can do, however, is to help enlighten young boys and girls to see each others as equal (and I'm including girls in this too, because many girls, if taught that way, has a tendency to also see themselves as inferior to boys). In my opinion, feminism's best chance is to enlighten a new generatio along with those who aren't actually sexist assholes, but say/do sexist things because they're used to the world working that way. These people can be enlightened if we all help, and then ignore the rest. They can't be turned, but hopefully the rest of the world will at some point be able to see that their way is wrong.
@ Ross: Yes I agree with you, it's more sensible to focus on a conversation with people who are sympathetic or indifferent or at least not rejecting gender equality. And I would say it's hard enough to convince people who are indifferent or who just care enough to not reject gender equality that feminism is a good idea.That's hard work! And we should not waste our time with engaging in a fruitless conversation with haters.But I also stick to what I said before: You can't prevent to get in touch with haters and trolls and you will have to take a stand in one way or another. Because just ignoring haters also means to stay silent. And for me staying silent is not an option. I think this is quite a dilemma!
@ Felicia: You are saying that haters can't be "turned" and that's why they should be ignored. But maybe the expectation is too much? Maybe it's too much to expect that haters can be "turned" into feminists from one day to another.
But first, I guess that the haters themselves are not the only problem. It's also the general debate which is intoxicated by hate. So I think we should reflect on strategies to push back the haters and not just ignore them! Because their hate affects other people, too. And if haters insult someone then the victim of hate speech is suffering and other people who stand by and watch the conversation may be affected in a negative way, too. So it seems important to me that haters are prevented from intoxicating the whole debate.
And second, I would not completely rule out that even haters can be convinced at least to engage in a more respectful conversation. I'm not saying that this is our job and that we should focus on convincing haters but I'm just saying we should not give up on the idea that even haters can learn their lesson and become more respectful.
Sascha, I will respond later when I have better time (:
Sascha wrote: "Staying silent is not an option... quite a dilemma"Dispite my earlier asertions I do think Felicia has a point as do you Sascha. We should at least attempt to influence "haters" for want of a better word. It has been shown all to graphically that the reverse is true maling people hate. So it is possible if we can address the persons concerns about what greater equlity means we coud persuade them to join or at least to stop attacking us.
It occurs to me that even trolls and flamers must pick tbere subjects it is not completely random perhaps that would be the starting point this initial attraction or interest in the subject could be used to open a discussion.
We might have to involve the moderators of what ever platform we are using as sometimes these conversations get a bit heated at least in the beginning.
I find that if you differ in opinion, even on some things, you are labelled a troll. Some people have anger issues and can't communicate well at times. Others, have succumbed to hubris due to who they are, have been brainwashed and conditioned by another since childhood, and, therefore, will not look at anything outside their own box. To end ALL oppression, the MACHINE must be changed. Economic imbalance is the sole source. Replacing Price System economics with Energy Accounting and distributing Purchasing Power equitably to all, will end ALL oppression and social ills. www.technocracyinc.org
I think your last post could be seen as spam. But perhaps that is not for me to judge. I think trolling in general does have an element of tone. Talking at people rather than to them does that make sense.
Sascha:I decided that I agree with you on the fact that haters(for want of better word) should be pushed back more than ignored. However, I do stand by my claim that haters can't be convinced. I think one of the best ways to do this is not as often to engage in a long discussion with them (as we have seen on Facebook, ex., where good-meaning people have been tearing themselves down, trying to get a lost cause to understand) - but more to always be there to come up with the alternative opinion, the one that we are all equal, just so that it's always there too.
Does this make sense? English is my second language, and at the moment it's a bit difficult for me to make my opinion clear in another language.
Felicia:Makes perfect sense to me. It's a difficult balance when to ignore "hater's" not wanting to waste time on lost causes bit at the same time not wanting to leave unjust comments to go unchallenged.
Felicia wrote: "Sascha:I decided that I agree with you on the fact that haters(for want of better word) should be pushed back more than ignored. However, I do stand by my claim that haters can't be convinced. I ..."
Yes this makes sense to me, too. As Ross puts it, it's a difficult balance. And I can completely understand anyone who doesn't have the energy to engage with trolls and haters because it sometimes seems to be a lost cause. On the other hand, this is what trolls and haters want: to silence all the people with different views. So I think it's very important to support people and encourage them to speak out.
Because I can tell you some good news: In Austria where I live there have been four women, four journalists who had enough of being victims of hate speech. They have spoken their minds and told the public that it's enough already. They have honestly talked about their experiences with haters.
And it was a big surprise to see lots of people standing with the four women. Many thousands of people signed a petition in support of the four journalists. So I guess there are many people out there who are sick and tired of all the hate. And we should engage in working together and finding collective strategies against the haters and trolls.
I don't think we should accept trolls. It seems we agree a lot on this, just maybe not on how to then deal with the trolls. I think it's important to make a stand, saying to the world we disagree, so that people can see that there are (hopefully) more people who truly believe in equality, than the other way around. Like your example with the journalists, speaking up about it can be very helpful! I always think we should do that.But when I go on Facebook and see a post from, ex, Everyday Sexism Project, there are usually a lot of comments of the "go girl, it's so brave of you to share this!"-type and then one comment of the "well, what did you expect when you [insert stupid reason here]"-type - and that one comment gets so much attention. I understand that, because I personally feel a strong urge to tell this person how wrong they are and how that's a horrible thing to say, but yeah, it's just a shame that that single hateful comment get all the attention. That's what I mean when I say to ignore them and not engage.
Trolling is comedic remarks, nasty remarks, hate speech, and harrassment. Just like the dreaded word "homophobe", the trend toward name calling by neo-progressives to shame, belittle, discredit, and silence those with differing opinions is now being applied to the word "troll", as Mr. Ross kindly "suggested" that my previous post "could" be interpreted as "spam", in it, I spoke my opinions relevant to the subjects being discussed without using any insulting or hate speech in a valid and logical discourse.
Vance:I meant no disrespect just saying tone has an effect. How we put things can be misconstrued. I own up I have made this mistake myself in the past.
@ Felicia:Yes I have a similar impression: often the conversation is hijacked by trolls who get all the attention they seek. They just have to put a few sentences into the conversation and many people react soon. But on the other side, if people have interesting and innovative things to tell they are often ignored.
I don't think this is just because of the trolls but it has also to do with how people react to trolls. There is often an imbalance between the reactions to hateful comments by trolls and the reactions to smart comments. Sometimes it seems that people are not interested in an insightful conversation where they can learn something new and see the world with other views but they only seem to be interested in telling the trolls to shut up.
The key aspect has I see it impression. If trolls where verble ingnoring them would be best course. However the comment are there until manually removed. So anyone looking at goodreads before will see these negative comment and get the wrong impression of the site.
Also there is te broader debate some trolls or at least agressive emails can be a sign of passion. So perhaps we should repond to such comments the same as any other polite but firm remember we can always report the comments if they get out of hand but use this power sparingly or we risk sanitising the conversations to much diminishing its effectiveness.
Maybe, and this is an idea I just got based on your recent comments, it is a good idea to reply politely to the hateful comments, and then always remember that for every reply you make to a hateful comment, make three replies to nicer ones. What do you think about that?
Anti-trolling sounds good Felicia. I shall do that next time we get some negatives. This might actully be fun lets see how many we can get involved in project OSS " more Ms/ mister nice Girl / Guy"
http://time.com/4457110/internet-trolls/An article on Troll's and I haven't even finished reading it yet but there's a lot in there about feminism in general too.
Ross wrote: "Anti-trolling sounds good Felicia. I shall do that next time we get some negatives. This might actully be fun lets see how many we can get involved in project OSS " more Ms/ mister nice Girl / Guy""We'll do it!
Robert wrote: "http://time.com/4457110/internet-trolls/
An article on Troll's and I haven't even finished reading it yet but there's a lot in there about feminism in general too."
Nice, thanks! :D
Felicia: Got spamed some weird site that does not like Emma usual half truths and jeliousy. Anyway I reponded posting on the tumbler page three postives in a reply. Well they have not blocked me so lets see how it goes. Thought it would make a good test.
I think the case of Anita Sarkeesian is important. In case you don't know who she is: Anita Sarkeesian formulates her critique of sexism in media, especially in computer games. She works for the platform Feminist Frequency and her videos "Tropes vs. Women" are very wise.Anita Sarkeesian falls victim to lots of hate and trolling, even death and rape threats. A big campaign of hate against Anita Sarkeesian runs under the name of "Gamergate". But she will not be silenced and she still is fighting against sexism. There is also a guide for people who are victims of online harassment which Anita Sarkeesian has written.
Here you can find an article about her current situation and projects: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles...
I completely get this!! On a video about rapping, someone said that a lot of raps were sexist, another said that they hated feminists. I asked persepn #2 why he hated people who believed everyone was equal and was called a feminazi and man hater. Ugh
I agree. Its definitely a shame reading comments in general on YouTube especially when YouTubers or anyone posting about the topic of feminism in a positive way and get tons and tons of backlash because of it. But its good to have some sort of conservative criticism too and nice comments too. At my school, I was part of a feminist club and there were always some trolls here and there as well that would always question about feminist being man haters which is totally not the case but in the end we just educated them about it even after they still disagreed and tried debating back.
It's important to remember that for all those awful comments, there's even more people quietly watching the videos. I usually avoid jumping into comment threads full of trolls, but sometimes it's necessary because you never know who is going to read it...and maybe, just maybe, a voice of reason will shine through and help them start thinking about justice and equal rights and all sorts of good stuff. The arguments on internet threads aren't for the trolls (their minds are closed at this point), they're for the people who probably aren't commenting and can be swayed.
Sherri, your last comment nailed it on the head. Those who comment have closed minds and are also probably uneducated (willingly or unwillingly) about the finer and more devastating points of the issues and/or are surrounded by like minded people. But the real audience are the ones who don't comment and probably easier to sway. So the question begs, do we enter the world or trolls for justice? It's hard to do! The metaphor "walking into the lion's den" comes to mind.
Lets beard the lion to extend Sydney's metaphor. It can be done as we have discussed previously if approached with care and any attempt is better than leaving a clear field to antisocial behaviour is it not.
Ross, I agree. Saying something is better than nothing. However I admit that I find myself saying nothing more often than not due to the fear of saying something and "getting it wrong," such as not having checked all the facts... I simply don't know what I should say most times and don't fancy the idea of comments in reply to what I have said because it's obvious to all of us how vicious they can be. So I read all of the comments without posting something to not only curb my frustration and guilt but to also take in all that is being said, so that next time I can comment and feel like I am covering all angles. Reading this now makes me realize how calculated commenting on social forums can be, and how emotional that process can be even though it's just a computer screen.
Yes Sydney your are correct however on the other hand most trolls arguments are ill conceived and poorly executed. Keep to facts but let your passion show. Do not make personal comments back to them. Always remember you are in the right and trust yourself and your motivation to know when to keep going and when there is nothing to be gained.
I just get one idea: I don't think it makes really sense to get involved with trolls and haters directly and always respond directly to what they say. Maybe it makes more sense to try and change the conversation in general. What do I mean by this?Well, instead of responding directly and trying to get the facts straight, maybe it's better to more often post your opinion and direct it especially at those people who are reading the discussion and might be afraid to post because of all the hate.
By changing the conversation I mean to post factual but also emotional statements that react to the haters but not in a direct way and instead trying to make the debate more open and inclusive to non-haters and non-trolls.
Because confronting the trolls and haters directly seems to be pointless to me, but confronting them by making the conversation more factual and more open and more inclusive and generally more friendly could also be an encouragement for other people who are afraid to articulate their opinion because they fear the reactions of the haters.
You could call this a "democratization" of internet communication because for me the trolls and haters are kind of little dictators and fascists who silence other opinions by hate and force. So making the conversation more friendly and inclusive could be a way to push back the haters.
Does that make any sense to you?
Sascha, that make a lot of sense to me, and it goes perfectly in line with my thing about not engaging the trolls, yet not completely ignoring them. Because Sydney is right, there are other people watching!Sydney, I do that too, being nervous to post a comment on such a thing, saying my opinion. The tone can be so hard and hateful that I actually get emotional about it, even though it's strangers and I'm safe and sound in my own home. If I post a comment, I can really fret the responds, sometimes.
That's why I like that this forum is so open and welcoming. I like that we can disagree without trying to silence each other with hate and force.
Ross, Felicia, and Sascha, people like you and your comments, along with this wonderful discussion forum make the exploration of controversial and hard topics comfortable, safe, interesting and worthwhile. I resonate with what each of you said and appreciate your comments. It is in environments like this that we learn how to talk with others about their views and opinions. Coming into the conversation with an open mind and a genuine curiousity not only facilitates a safe environment for vulnerable opinions to be stated, but implements respect for the other, which is an important element during a discussion. Knowing how to intervene in a discussion full of "trolls" will never be easy, but I imagine can be full of learning opportunities. I feel that it can also be, for one who genuinely curious and facilitates a respectful and open environment, a strength building experience with one's own resolve. We will and can always learn from others, whether we agree or not, and allow this information to help us evolve into a stronger person if that makes sense. I think that's what I most appreciate about this process, is knowing that tomorrow I will learn something new and that it will help me develop into a more empathetic and knowledgeable individual.
Anyways, thanks!
Thanks Sydney you are very gracious. And I agree it is refreshing to have a civilised environment, which OSS provide. If only our politicians could learn civil calm discussion achive so much more than aggression and trading insults.
@ Sydney: thanx a lot for the kind words! And I absolutely agree with you.I have just one addition: Maybe it makes sense if we could make hate a very uncomfortable thing for the haters themselves? What I mean by that: haters seem to feel superior and comfortable (or whatever feeling they may have) when they can spread hate. So doesn't that mean that all people who don't hate and who want our conversation to become a conversation of respect and love instead, should do what they can to make haters feel uncomfortable as long as they hate and at the same time convince them that love is beautiful and much more worth to fight for?
Maybe we should teach them a lesson! The message could be as follows: Dear haters, we don't understand nor do we agree with you hating and harassing and hurting other people but does hating and harassing really make you feel better and does it solve your personal problems? Dear haters, maybe you should reflect a little bit about your own problems and think about what makes you so hateful? And maybe then you will see that your problems can not and will never be solved by hate! So dear haters, get a life and learn respect and maybe even love. It's worth it because hate is an ugly and stinking peace of shit but love is a beautiful flower and a butterfly. Maybe someone will even help you with your personal problems then and make your life more fun! And dear haters, start to be empathetic with other people and listen to their needs, maybe then our conversation will have a chance to be a global conversation of love and respect one day! Let's just dump hate where it belongs to: on the dunghill of history and start learning to love and respect each other instead! Perhaps one or another hater will get the message and change his and her behaviour?
Anyway, here's a website which has an interesting approach because humour and art can be a powerful weapon against hate! You can even be creative and add your own memes to the website (it's a German website but many memes are in English):
https://no-hate-speech.de/de/kontern
Sascha wrote: "I just get one idea: I don't think it makes really sense to get involved with trolls and haters directly and always respond directly to what they say. Maybe it makes more sense to try and change th..."I get it.
Trolls live off responses so bypassing them and posting your own thoughts to the actual topic only angers the trolls further. But if you do it enough they eventually tire from not getting what they wanted and move on.
I was watching the livestreaming of the HeForShe programme on YouTube. The speeches were incredible and everyone made such positive comments. Right from Shinzo Abe to Justin Trudeau to all the impact champions, everyone spoke of making gender equality a reality and galvanizing their fellow colleagues, friends and family to be a HeForShe.
But what stood out for me the most is the sea of negative comments that were coming in the comments section. There were racist, sexist and all other kinds of comments, topped with highly derogatory remarks towards Emma and all the other people who spoke. People also posted comments insulting countries and the society. There were a handful of good people who supported feminism and were actually trying to stop the people from posting very inappropriate things, but their appeals got overpowered by the gigantic amount of swear words that were coming in every second.
This left me thinking if HeForShe was not successful in changing such people's mindsets towards feminism and the belief that all men and women should be equal. I have understood that feminism is not an unpopular movement, it is a small segment of people who haven't learnt constructive criticism, and tend to influence people with invalid points such as this one-"There is going to be a war for gender equality soon," which literally meant to say that we shouldn't promote anything that can be a catalyst of war. How can we change such people to belive that gender equality is of utmost importance for a better community?
I would like to hear from everyone who second my thoughts and also from the ones who do not.
Regards,
Mahima