World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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What's the size of your ambition?
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High profile living gives me the creeps lol. Life is too short and is not meant for public consumption, personally speaking. That is the one drawback to being on the NYT best seller list - it comes with a bit of temporary celebrity. *shudder* But the sales would be awesome, of course.
I don't seek fame for it's own sake.I love telling my own stories, if I can reliably make about $30K AUD per year that would be great, and would allow me to keep doing writing on at least a part time basis.
At 3 books per 2 years, at $3 royalty per book. I need to find 6700 committed readers who love what I write.
I think that is entirely doable.
Graeme wrote: "I think that is entirely doable...."They say, manage expectations. Definitely sounds realistic, although to achieve 6700 one needs exposure probably in front of 100 times bigger crowd, so it's a lot of work
I'm thinking that by the time that I complete and publish book 5...Book 2 - A Traitors War in Q1 2017
Book 3 - The Dragon's Den in Q4 2017
Book 4 - The Crane War in Q2 2018
Book 5 - The Panopticon in Q1 2019
I'll be pushing into the ball park (if I can master both product and marketing) sometime in 2019 - probably later 2019 rather than early 2019.
So, 2019 - a solid three years from now would I think be an ambitious target.
I'm confident that I can write the books, it's the audience that I'm unsure of.
The income or NYT list has been more of an afterthought...finding out what I am capable of is my primary ambition. I want to get 2 more books out this year. Next year I will probably try for 10 more. Sales or not, I get such a rush from knowing that ideas that originated in my head have the potential to become tangible (or digital). It's like a form of inventing and I think it's amazing! I'm doing a major genre switch next year, so whether there will be an audience or not, I have no idea haha. I'm not sure it would stop me from writing a book though, if I knew in advance that no one would read it. I had no way of knowing if anyone would be interested in my current series, but so far the reception has been good.
Not to knock the bestseller's lists, but I see so many books have made the lists, that seeing the accolade on a cover doesn't do anything for me as a reader. And I'm not sure hitting the NYT necessarily makes one a "celebrity." After all, can you name everyone on this week's list without looking? Of those you might be able to name, do you know what they look like; can you spot them on the street if you saw them?I would almost argue famous authors/celebrity authors hit the lists because of their status and not the other way around. Don't forget, while making the list can boost sales, the list reports on books that have already sold, not on future purchases.
Marie wrote: "I'm doing a major genre switch next year..."Nice hook or is it a cliffhanger? What will it be? -:)
Graeme and MarieI'm so jealous of prolific writers lol!
J.J.
I have also been wondering about how accurate the NYT best seller list is these days. But I think it's safe to say that it serves as a pretty awesome barometer of success though. It is the penultimate ranking and gives you a champagne moment you can keep in your heart the rest of your life. Having said that I doubt writers who make it on the list only once can just retire. Competition and dwindling royalties make it difficult to survive unless you keep churning out the hits or get your book optioned for a film. Am I off topic or what?
While I have little personal ambition beyond providing adequately for my family, one thing that would truly thrill me is if some well-known Hollywood film producer would read one of my novels and like it enough to decide to turn it into a movie.
I thought the NYT list had to do with how many paperbacks were bulk ordered for distribution, not necessarily how many sales it had.
Having led a somewhat celebrity life, albeit, very minor (I have been asked for my autograph on a few occasions) I do not care about ever being "known" for my writing. I just want to make money. My wife has often been recognized in public, as are many of my clients. Sometimes its flattering, most of the time its downright scary. Money never threatens you or sends emails to you with photos from outside your house - yes that has happened to me.
I tell my clients "you can be rich or you can be famous, but you cant be both." Very few people who are famous are wealthy. They may appear to be wealthy but they are not.
To be famous, many other people are going to need to make money off of your success, which leaves your piece of the pie even smaller. Fame has a price.
I like Graeme's idea - find a core group of readers that like your work and make an amount of money you are happy with.
Michael Extremely interesting comments. Completely agree about the fame quotient. Even if I weren't naturally shy I would still find fame a bit unnerving. I'm the type who is embarrassed when tons of people wish me happy birthday on facebook lol. I've also been stalked before so yeah, don't crave attention. I don't see a windfall in my literary future but it is such an emotional high when people connect with what I've written. It will never get old! Although I have to admit it would be awesome to buy cool things for my friends and family and gift myself a gourmet kitchen so I can *finally* perfect my French macarons lol.
There are many interesting comments here, and I was particularly interested in reading yours, Michael, from 'the other side of the fence'. I would like to make money from writing but I don't want to be famous. I've heard from one reader who was inspired by my book to enter a debt solution straight away and that is a result for me, to have put info out there that improves people's lives. Another personal high was to hold my paperback when it arrived; I had achieved something that I always wanted to do but was always held back by thoughts of 'not good enough'.
Great stuff, everyone :) I am reminded of something I read last year about Pope Francis, who said that sometimes he really wished he could just go and have a pizza at a restaurant. Such a simple thing that most of us take for granted.
I am happy to do without the fame, but as Michel mentioned, having books turn into films would be amazing. I have always wanted to make films (behind the scenes, not in front of the camera). It is something to strive for but I have no idea how to make it happen at this point.
Great question, Nik. On paper, I've published three novels this year, a pair of thrillers and a tragicomedy (Three years in the writing.) I lucked into a fantastic (Indie) editor, and would really prefer to just keep writing. I love the process, learning, and the "Aha" moments. I've also learned the fickle and tide-like nature of this evolving business, and I need help.
So my most ambitious project until fall of 2017 is to find/hire that help. I need an agent. My feeling is that I've spent 60% of my writing days trying to teach myself to market, and I find marketing stressful, onerous, tedious.
Bradley wrote: "My feeling is that I've spent 60% of my writing days trying to teach myself to market, and I find marketing stressful, onerous, tedious. "Yep, I'm with you there, Bradley. It feels to me with marketing like I'm trying to learn to swim in the deep end, whereas I'd rather devote my time to more writing.
Jen wrote: "I would like to make money from writing but I don't want but I don't want to be famous."I think to achieve that type of fame from writing you really do need to be with a publishing house that has the resources to put your name in the collective consciousness of the public. There are a lot of authors who get their novels optioned, most never get made into a movie or TV series though. Most that do, dont even achieve that level of fame.
Here's an interesting article on how Game of Thrones took 20 yrs to go from a book to TV series... it really highlights how rare that is.
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/2016...
BTW - if you want to have your book turned into a movie or TV series, you have to write it that way.
One of my friends/clients was a showrunner in Los Angeles, a TV producer and the former Director of the Writers Guild of America. He has written television shows his entire life. He teaches now. Reading his attempt at a novel was rather sad. But he did give me one important piece of advice for turning my novel into a movie someday - write it for the screen - which means "Action, Dialogue and Description." ADD for short as he called it.
You should see each scene/chapter in your mind and write it as you visualize it.
Tara wrote: "Graeme and MarieI'm so jealous of prolific writers lol!
J.J.
I have also been wondering about how accurate the NYT best seller list is these days. But I think it's safe to say that it serves as a ..."
Hi Tara, my output is good (a 100K+ word book every 9 months) for someone working part time at writing, because I did 18 months of design work before I wrote my first scene.
I have 15 books in the Metaframe War series, the first four are designed down to individual scenes. I'm finding as I'm writing that I'm keeping to the design about 90% to 95% of the time.
Most of the latter 11 books are defined down to chapters, so still have to define scenes, but major turning points and the ending are fully defined down to scene levels.
I have some re-design to do on books 10 and 11, due to the repercussions of a single sentence in book 1. It's all good, as the rework will improve them and strengthen the novel over all.
As I finish a book, I review the next couple of books to ensure that the scene design still works, and then I take the next book that has been designed down to chapters and design it down to scenes. That way I keep 2 to 3 books detailed designed to the scene level ahead of where I am with the actual writing of the scenes.
Like everyone up thread - I'm doing this because I love it. I also get a big thrill out of connecting with readers.
Hi Michael, you wrote,One of my friends/clients was a showrunner in Los Angeles, a TV producer and the former Director of the Writers Guild of America. He has written television shows his entire life. He teaches now. Reading his attempt at a novel was rather sad. But he did give me one important piece of advice for turning my novel into a movie someday - write it for the screen - which means "Action, Dialogue and Description." ADD for short as he called it
You should see each scene/chapter in your mind and write it as you visualize it.....
What I call an externalised, visual style.
A focus on illustrating what the characters say, and what do they do, and less on what they are thinking/feeling. More show than tell.
GraemeThat level of organization is fascinating.
Michael
You are an amazing resource. Question for you: do you think literary fiction is dead?
I have lot's of scheming, shifting alliances, backstabbing, secret agents, double agents, spies, betrayal, corruption, assassins, secret and outright war within a multi-polar multi-theatre conflict.The organisation is as much a reflection of the scale and complexity of the subject matter as it is a reflection of my natural work style.
There is no way that I could hope to complete this project without it.
Tara wrote: "You are an amazing resource. Question for you: do you think literary fiction is dead?"Not when it comes to writing. I know a little bit about how Hollywood works. Ive done some TV deals, movie deals and book deals. Even been on a couple of shows myself. But when it comes to writing I am a babe in the woods. I am learning from all of you wonderful people.
I hope literary fiction isnt dead. Im staking my future on it. Im tired of being a lawyer. Now I know how it all works - I want it to work for me... lol
Nik wrote: "Probably everything has its toll. Achievement is usually accompanied by sacrifice.What's your ambition: to make it big time or settle for worriless and not necessarily high profile life?
And for ..."
My ambitions are humble. I don't need bestseller lists or any fame and fortune. Even regular sales are not a must. For me, all I strive to accomplish is to have my writing mean something to someone. If I can bring enjoyment to the few who read my words then my work here is done :)
Graeme wrote: "Eldon.Well said."
Thank you :)
You guys! I wish gr had a like button!Michael
That's how I feel. As writers no one can tell our stories but us. That is thrilling and scary to me but I could never not write. Stories live in my head day and night but when I read an amazing piece of fiction I almost feel like I have nothing to say. Weird, I know.
TBH I'm just writing for the fun of it. I want to publish my book, and I want ppl to enjoy it, but for now, I'm still in school, so I'm just going to write for fun. And I don't like writing just because I have to do it. I only like doing it for the fun of it. You know what I mean right?
Nik wrote: "Marie wrote: "I'm doing a major genre switch next year..."Nice hook or is it a cliffhanger? What will it be? -:)"
(((adventure)))
Eldon wrote: "Nik wrote: "Probably everything has its toll. Achievement is usually accompanied by sacrifice.What's your ambition: to make it big time or settle for worriless and not necessarily high profile lif..."
I enjoyed your story published in No Bounds.
❄️Ƙανу Ƒυℓℓвυѕтєя Ƭнє Ɓσσкωσям❄️~You'll never know the murderer sitting next to you You'll think, "How'd I get here, sitting next to you?~ wrote: "TBH I'm just writing for the fun of it. I want to publish my book, and I want ppl to enjoy it, but for now, I'm still in school, so I'm just going to write for fun. And I don't like writing just be..."I know exactly what you mean Kavy! Writing should always be fun :)
Mehreen wrote: "Eldon wrote: "Nik wrote: "Probably everything has its toll. Achievement is usually accompanied by sacrifice.What's your ambition: to make it big time or settle for worriless and not necessarily hi..."
Thanks Mehreen :)
Congratulations on the film projects Tim :) That's awesome!!
Well said my friend!Just don't forget us when you go Hollywood :)
Interesting opinions ranging from few people enjoying the story to Hollywood blockbusters, no less! Hope everyone achieves much beyond the initial ambition
Bradley wrote: "I find marketing stressful, onerous, tedious..."I'd outsource myself the entire thing -:) It seems marketing is a must no matter whether one wants to sell butter or books, the question is whether to do it yourself is an optimal solution. I assume - far from always
Tara wrote: " I wish gr had a like button!..."i bet many would then come to check how many likes they've garnered-:)
Tara wrote: "Graeme and MarieI'm so jealous of prolific writers lol!
J.J.
I have also been wondering about how accurate the NYT best seller list is these days. But I think it's safe to say that it serves as a ..."
Yeah, don't get me wrong, as a writer, I'd probably throw a party if I ever made the list, but when I'm looking at books as a reader, I am underwhelmed by the tag on the cover. Then again, I almost find it a turn-off when I see things like quotes on the cover crowing about the book and other stuff like that. It's almost like you as the author are telling me what I should like to read instead of letting me decide what I like to read.
I put "from the author of..." on the cover for Dione's War, and plan to note the connection to USS Krakowski on the cover of my next book, but it does make me a little uncomfortable, feeling I'm not letting each work stand on its own merit.
And I jokingly think that someday I'm going to put "Not a NYT bestseller" on a cover...then it will probably be spoiled by becoming my only book to hit the list :D
J.J. wrote: "...but when I'm looking at books as a reader, I am underwhelmed by the tag on the cover....And I jokingly think that someday I'm going to put "Not a NYT bestseller" on a cover...then it will probably be spoiled by becoming my only book to hit the list :D "
Haha, good one :). I am the same way with editorial reviews and awards on a book I am checking out...I usually skip past all that because it doesn't make any difference to me. For me as a reader, customer reviews trump any of the best seller or editorial reviews or award stuff.
It would be the greatest thing in the world for me if I could become published, have a following, and get to go on tour where I get to meet fans face-to-face, answer their questions, and discuss issues related to my writing with them. I guess this would be on the smaller end of the ambition scale, because I really have no desire to have the kind of fame someone like J.K. Rowling or George R.R. Martin has accrued. Authors like them, who have made millions (or even billions) off of sales and adaptations can scarcely say or do anything anymore without it becoming the source of controversy. Every decision they make is open to scrutiny and draws criticism. Such fame... not for me.
Marie wrote: "J.J. wrote: "...but when I'm looking at books as a reader, I am underwhelmed by the tag on the cover....And I jokingly think that someday I'm going to put "Not a NYT bestseller" on a cover...then..."
I'm the same way with movies when it comes to Academy Awards or TV shows with Emmies...especially with the controversy this year at the Oscars over their all white slate of nominees. Now you can't trust that future winners and nominees deserve the nod or if they only got it because either they're white and the Academy is racist, or they're someone of color who only won for the sake of diversity. There are a lot of great actors of all colors, but because of the all-white slate and the resulting backlash, race is an issue that hangs over that award (not that it likely hasn't since the beginning).
We saw the same thing with the Hugo awards the last couple years with the Sad/angry puppy nonsense.
I want yo be an entrepreneur and I also love to learn about technology
Any ambitious dudes here or laid back to the contrary? -:)
You're waking up all sortsa sleepy discussions.I'd like to live off of book sales. I'd love to be a house hold name, BUT, I'm not hard-working enough and I know that. If something in me shifted and I had the energy, focus and time to write full time, things might change, but I've a day job and fluctuating gumption.
But I'd love to be a best seller or award winner. I'd love to have that validation, I admit it. BUT, just being able to support myself and my travel habit off writing, working on my novels into retirement, that's, I think, I reasonable goal.
Nat wrote: "You're waking up all sortsa sleepy discussions.I'd like to live off of book sales. I'd love to be a house hold name, BUT, I'm not hard-working enough and I know that. If something in me shifted a..."
Yep, those ever actual, unconnected with specific events.
Hope you'll achieve your aspirations, Nat!
Nat, that's a nice turn of phrase - "fluctuating gumption." Fairly describes my waxing and waning enthusiasm toward effecting political change on a local level.
Anyone else wants to share his/her/theirs/its?
The size of my ambition? Not sure what's being asked here, so I looked for a definition of ambition. The first one was "an ardent desire for rank, fame, or power." By that definition, I'm a 5 on a 1-10 scale. The other definition was "desire to achieve a particular end." I'm a 10 here. I want a peaceful, productive, interesting and giving life, and I do everything I can to achieve that.
What's your ambition: to make it big time or settle for worriless and not necessarily high profile life?
And for the writers: NYT bestseller or solid regular sales would suffice?