The Fire Next Time - Maya & Sofia 28th Aug 2016

[Sofia]

My Dungeon Shook
Letter to My Nephew on the One Hundredth Anniversary of the Emancipation

Down At The Cross
Letter from a Region in My Mind

[Sofia]

Good morning Maya

I read the first one this morning. It's short. (view spoiler)[i found it to the point and empowering. Because he states how things are, how they survived up to know and how to continue. He has this power that i missed in Coates.

I found these powerful:

You can only be destroyed by believing that you really are what the white world calls a nigger.


If you know whence you came, there is no limit to where you can go. (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

Sorry for being late.

Just read the first one too - it's so good to be back with JB's words.
Yeah, Coates is not Baldwin. He channels his pain in an aggressive way while here again we see Baldwin teaching James to love, to love his lost brothers and to be who he wants to be and not who he's told he is.

[Sofia]

Glad we are on the same page. :-)

Do you want to read some more today? I can.

[Maya]

yes, don't know if I can read the whole essay today but will read some of it.

[Maya]

In the second essay: @27% - the church
(view spoiler)[reading about why he joined the church - that he felt he had no other choice to leave Harlem. His realization of what the world around him hitting him at the age of 14 - like he said: nothing was different he just grew up and saw. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "yes, don't know if I can read the whole essay today but will read some of it."


No not the whole only some of it for me also. Will come back when i read to 27%

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "In the second essay: @27% - the church
[spoilers removed]"

I like his self awareness and his ability to see himself and his motivations clearly.

We had read about Ham in one of his fiction books and my interpretation was as he says here, about black destined to be slaves. Glad that is made clear. Not much of a welcome.

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "In the second essay: @27% - the church
[spoilers removed]"

I like his self awareness and his ability to see himself and his motivations clearly.

We had read about Ham in one of his fiction books and my interpretation was as he says here, about black destined to be slaves. Glad that is made clear. Not much of a welcome.

[Sofia]

Good day Maya

I'm going to read more later as busy working day today - hope you are have a good day :D

[Maya]

Hi darling, i am at work too but not so busy.
Read a bit this morning - still with teenage Jimmy.

[Maya]

@40%
(view spoiler)["When we were told to love everybody, I had thought that that meant everybody. But no. It applied only to those who believed as we did, and it did not apply to white people at all.

But what was the point, the purpose, of my salvation if it did not permit me to behave with love toward others, no matter how they behaved toward me?"

so the church insists on maintaining the segregation by brainwashing it's followers. What did it gain from this? More dimes from the poorest and the most scared? Ugh (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

@72%
(view spoiler)[I didn't know that the Nation of Islam wanted several of the southern states to be given to black people as reparations. I mean, I knew they wanted their own land and independence but was not aware of the scale of the claim. Have to read more on this subject when I have time - did they really believe (and how) this was achievable?

Again, I love how gently and at the same time supported my many facts JB puts his arguments as to why their movement's ideology is not the way to go ahead. Their complete rejection of white people while not without its merit only further enforces the racism. While I remember Malcolm X and his cry for Black Supremacy from the movie now that JB recalled his personal meeting with the Honorable Elijah and how everyone on the table assumed he's one of them but is just not ready ... I don't know, it looks in a way like a brainwash to me.

So both Christianity and the Islam Nation put further obstacles in the way to a true integration in accordance with JB. I'm beginning more and more to see why people were fast to discount his words and call him irrelevant early on: he didn't serve any of their agendas, he cared for his people. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

@40% this was a very strong indictment against Christianity. I almost highlighted it all. He feels like i do about St Paul (believe me as the 'father' of our little island he's been shoved down my throat ad nauseum). Plus he points out all the hypocrisies and 'the do what I say, not what I do. Plus the huge differences between what Jesus actually said and how it's interpreted. Organised religion is about control through fear and ignorance. Control is the key, not love.

I think it's Islam's turn next.

[Maya]

Finished.
Loved! Made some notes to discuss with you later when you're done.

I just have to say: in my comment at the 72% I said JB was being gentle in his criticism but omg in the last 25% he is relentless.

[Sofia]

72% Religion does seem to stand in the way. It hurt to read about the lack of safety, surety felt that what haooened to the Jews would not happen to them. I do not have that surety either not only as regards to Black people but also to any other group that becomes a scapegoat. Chilling. Especially in the times we are living in at the moment.

Reading about the need for salvation, for hope that followers of one religion or another feel. Trying to find that something to lift them up keeps putting in my mind how Isis are recruiting so many young ones ready to turn in their lives for salvation, for better. Scary, sad and true.

Probably will finish tomorrow.

[Maya]

yes, JB keeps repeating that nothing is more frightening than a man who has nothing to lose. Many are out there waiting to take advantage of that.

[Maya]

listening to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69pi6...

[Sofia]

Finished as well :-)

If we wanted a summary of his thought and his work than this would be a very succint well thought out version. I think his insistance on love as the only way to break the shackles that we are burdened with and to break the cycles of hate or greed that love to surround us is as he says the only way forward.

going to check out your link.

[Sofia]

Great link thanks. I loved hearing him explain and yes they are there to teach us to think eventhough it's only occassionaly that we meet such teachers (at least in my case).

[Sofia]

Contents,/b>

“The Tradition” by Jericho Brown
Introduction by Jesmyn Ward

PART I: LEGACY
Homegoing, AD by Kima Jones
The Weight by Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah
Lonely in America by Wendy S. Walters
Where Do We Go from Here? by Isabel Wilkerson
“The Dear Pledges of Our Love”: A Defense of Phillis Wheatley’s Husband by Honorée Fanonne Jeffers
White Rage by Carol Anderson
Cracking the Code by Jesmyn Ward

PART II: RECKONING
Queries of Unrest by Clint Smith
Blacker Than Thou by Kevin Young
Da Art of Storytellin’ (a Prequel) by Kiese Laymon
Black and Blue by Garnette Cadogan
The Condition of Black Life Is One of Mourning by Claudia Rankine
Know Your Rights! by Emily Raboteau
Composite Pops by Mitchell S. Jackson

PART III: JUBILEE
Theories of Time and Space by Natasha Trethewey
This Far: Notes on Love and Revolution by Daniel José Older
Message to My Daughters by Edwidge Danticat

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Great link thanks. I loved hearing him explain and yes they are there to teach us to think eventhough it's only occassionaly that we meet such teachers (at least in my case)."

I didn't manage to listen to the whole thing - it was a crazy day. But I noticed at some point early on he got emotional and started and stopped a couple of times before he was able to continue.

Will come back a bit later with some comments on the book.

[Maya]

So sorry for being absent.
Here are my highlights:

“The glorification of one race and the consequent debasement of another -- or others -- always has been and always will be a recipe for murder. There is no way around this. If one is permitted to treat any group of people with special disfavor because of their race or the color of their skin, there is no limit to what one will force them to endure, and, since the entire race has been mysteriously indicted, no reason not to attempt to destroy it root and branch.”

“It is so simple a fact and one that is so hard, apparently, to grasp: Whoever debases others is debasing himself.”

“It is rare indeed that people give. Most people guard and keep; they suppose that it is they themselves and what they identify with themselves that they are guarding and keeping, whereas what they are actually guarding and keeping is their system of reality and what they assume themselves to be.”

“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace -- not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.”

I loved how he built his thesis: from his childhood choices - to join the street or the church (basically not much of a choice), then through two religions and all the facts about the brainwashing and insincerity, to what he’s been saying all along: only human compassion and love is the way forward. I cannot imagine under how much pressure he must have been at the time of the Civil Rights Movement – he never fully agreed or supported ML King or Malcolm X, he’s always been a little sarcastic about the efforts of the white liberals, while in the meantime gracefully and passionately defended his position by means of public speeches and writing.

It always makes me very said when he says: “I know what I’m asking is impossible” and there’s been a variation of that statement in most of his essays. He says that deep down he believes that we, humans, can do better but also having analyzed the human phycology so thoroughly, I think, he knew there will always be people for whom power would be more important than anything. And that to gain and maintain that power they would need to crush other humans – their bodies or their minds.

To compare with Coates: I think one of the article we read is close to what I thought – he is not Baldwin but perhaps in our time we need speakers with Coates rhetoric. That is – he plays with the readers’ emotions more than trying to make them think. I just don’t think many readers have the time and desire to dig deeper into most matters. Everything is much faster now but also more superficial. I remember Coates talked a lot about the body (dehumanization) and the beauty (humanization) and it was emotional to read but when JB talked about beauty he said he found it in their hard working and patience. Their beauty was the effort they made.

[Maya]

I will have to finish watching the video and read the first essay of the new book tonight. Too many people around me.

[Sofia]

Going to read tonight too Maya - very busy day at work today.

I highlighted a lot of what you highlighted.

If it is like you said - that people now prefer to have their emotions played with rather than take the tie (love) to think for themselves. Than that makes me sad, very sad because it is so much easier than for 'demagogues' to carry the day. I don't want us to head there :(

[Maya]

Just read the introducion by Ward. Moving - especially in the part where she explains the parents' exhaustion.

[Maya]

Homegoing, AD by Kima Jones
(view spoiler)[very atmospheric but I needed more clues to feel something - the cousins who couldn't make it because it wasn't payday (poverty), the forgiving darkness (incest?), the not eating of pork (became Muslim when she left the South ?). Not sure if the gators meant something other than gators. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "Just read the introducion by Ward. Moving - especially in the part where she explains the parents' exhaustion."

Just read it, agree totally

[Sofia]

Homecoming
Not sure about the gators either :D
Cousins can kiss. It reminded me of our discussion about the need for closeness even after death when we were reading Vin's book.

At the moment I'm also reading Home and it too underlines the perils of travel for the black man. Here we had them being continually turned back.

[Maya]

sorry, what do you mean by: we had them being continually turned back?

[Maya]

The Weight by Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah
(view spoiler)[I liked what she did with the "he ain't heavy" . (Here's the story of the song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Ain%...)

and the story about her grandfather and the demand for dignity.

Also, Baldwin's kitchen had a yellow sink and purple shelves!!!

the rest was ok. (hide spoiler)]

stopping here for tonight.

[Sofia]

"Turned around again and again, before GPS, we learned North Carilina is a long state."

First paragraph. I thought that was because they were made to turn back on certain roads. What do you think?

[Maya]

that they got lost maybe because they haven't been home in a long time. but I didn't think it was because they were made to turn back. Dunno, maybe I'm missing what's implied here. Although it's very weird that she's saying: 'we learned' as if they didn't know before?

[Maya]

ok, read the whole thing again, for me it feels like they left, wanted to forget and to change, but as soon as they got back home they were the same as before: the children of that land.

[Sofia]

I understood it as they were taught otherwise by the turning back.

Going to read the other one.

[Sofia]

The Weight - i really liked this one, how she had thoughts, questions and changes. Thanks for the song link :D. I like that phrase it has a weight of love in it. It's beautiful and it makes me cry.

[Sofia]

Lonely in America -

(view spoiler)[I really like this one

"as if they never existed"

She is talking about being an outsider, in a place where you are not appreciated, loved, not even your bones are respected. So yes you'd feel lonely, alone in such a place. It's like respect or lack there of is part of what we inherit from the past evenmore so when the present still mirrors the past. (hide spoiler)]

This is a bit long so tell me if you will do another one or not ok :D

[Maya]

ok, will let you know as soon as I read this one.

[Sofia]

Where Do We Go from Here? by Isabel Wilkerson

Short and powerful


(view spoiler)["But history tells us otherwise. We seem to be in a continuing feedback loop of repeating a past that our county has yet to address. Our history is one of spectacular acheivement (as in blak senators of the Reconstruction ero or the advances that culminated in the election of Barack Obama) followed by a violent backlash that threatens to earase the gains and then a long, slow climb to the next mountain, where they cycle begins again."

I noticed the loop in our series of reading and it saddens and angers me. Wish the cycle can be broken.

"And we must know deep in our bones and in our hearts that if the ancestors could survive the Middle Passage, we can survive anything." (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

didn't read anything last night. will catch up with you today.

[Sofia]

No worries - I have not read anything else :D

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Lonely in America -

I really like this one

"as if they never existed"

She is talking about being an outsider, in a place where you are not appreciated, loved, not even your bones are respected. ..."

I liked it too.
She explored the roots of her loneliness in a history that's being ignored because it's too difficult to talk about it - the people on her visit, the news reports, etc. refuse to discuss it.

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Where Do We Go from Here? by Isabel Wilkerson

Short and powerful


"But history tells us otherwise. We seem to be in a continuing feedback loop of repeating a past that our county has yet to addre..."

I guess the title is a rhetorical question, then?
For me that was the focus of the essay: "we may have lulled ourselves into believing that the struggle was over, that it had all been taken care of back in 1964".

"Lulled to believe" implies, i think, not just the brainwashing and false hopes but the exhaustion that Ward talked about in the Intro.

I liked that this and the previous essays were put together like that. First we see the ease with which history is ignored i.e. making millions of people lose their identity. And then we have the illusion of political power in the present.

[Sofia]

Yes I'm 'enjoying' my reading too. I like the different voices, the different angles. I never thought about the burials before this. The burials of the past are in fact erasing of the past.

More tomorrow or?

[Maya]

it's interesting to see how different their perception is compared to Baldwin's. I think it's because they are of different generation and not direct witnesses to the 40s-60s that they had hopes. And with time these hopes are fading and disappointment settles in.

Have you read another today? Tomorrow is good for me. I'd like to read some of my Tana French book tonight.

[Sofia]

Nothing today. We'll do more tomorrow that's ok with me.

[Sofia]

(view spoiler)[will read somw whilst waiting at the hospital tomorrow, will get back to you when i get back home. (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

(view spoiler)[fingers crossed it all goes well. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Hugs and thanks

[Sofia]

“The Dear Pledges of Our Love”: A Defense of Phillis Wheatley’s Husband by Honorée Fanonne Jeffers
(view spoiler)[this might seem a bit staid and boring maybe but I'm loving these perspectives, reading about people and thinking about things I've never before. And I did not know anything about this poet before. The sea of my unknowledge continues to grow. (hide spoiler)]
White Rage by Carol Anderson (view spoiler)[this makes me see how economic racism/subjugation be so real. A while ago I was talking to my husband about how we expected the Obama presidency to usher in a new era and how it hasn't and it's all here. (hide spoiler)]
Cracking the Code by Jesmyn Ward (view spoiler)[ I liked this, how the outer layer belies the inner being. I wonder what my DNA is made of. I really now very little of my direct ancestors, No documents or photos. (hide spoiler)]