The Grishaverse discussion
Ruin and Rising
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DISCUSS THE FIRST CHAPTER OF RUIN AND RISING
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I know what star-crossed means, thank you very much.And I repeat that FOR ME they are not star-crossed 'cause their MAIN PROBLEM is coming from not being able to communicate their needs to each others. Their main problem TO ME it's something internal their relationship NOT external. The external parts help to drift them further apart BUT they would be meaningless if they would have been able to face their problems first.
I'm inclined to agree with Lys, quite frankly. I feel like, for the most part, it was both their faults, and the blame belonged not to external forces but to internal ones. I feel like they were what dooms their relationship and not other people.
Zoya => Mal wasn't unwilling to kiss her, and when Alina caught them, I remember Mal's reaction being more like "shoot! she saw!" than "OMG I'm so sorry!" I actually feel like there's more to Zoya than she lets on, kind of like Fiyero from Wicked. I sort of like her, mostly because I want to see how she grows as a person.
I think that there was space for a healthy relationship to emerge between them in S&S, but yet they weren't communicating. They were expecting the other to give up a part of who they are. They were expecting the other to understand him/her perfectly. And it didn't work. Mal was staying away for his own reasons. Mal and Alina were "together" despite Nikolai's proposal (which really only made Mal jealous). I also feel that Mal would be happier with a normal Alina, one who was not Grisha, because I agree with the Darkling. I do feel he is a bit scared of her. He has every right to be scared of her, too, as she seems to be becoming more and more like the Darkling as her power grows.
The only one of those people/things I see as properly keeping them apart is the Apparat and that's in a literal sense. Emotionally, how does he have control over them?
I found this quote from Nikolai kind of interesting: "If I wanted you to fall out of love with Mal, I’d make him stay here." In my opinion, they seem to romanticize the idea of the other more when the other is absent.
Anyway, this is why I disagree with you. I have no intentions of changing your opinion. I mean only to explain my own as to why I disagree with you, Vindictev, and instead agree with Lys.
Zoya => Mal wasn't unwilling to kiss her, and when Alina caught them, I remember Mal's reaction being more like "shoot! she saw!" than "OMG I'm so sorry!" I actually feel like there's more to Zoya than she lets on, kind of like Fiyero from Wicked. I sort of like her, mostly because I want to see how she grows as a person.
I think that there was space for a healthy relationship to emerge between them in S&S, but yet they weren't communicating. They were expecting the other to give up a part of who they are. They were expecting the other to understand him/her perfectly. And it didn't work. Mal was staying away for his own reasons. Mal and Alina were "together" despite Nikolai's proposal (which really only made Mal jealous). I also feel that Mal would be happier with a normal Alina, one who was not Grisha, because I agree with the Darkling. I do feel he is a bit scared of her. He has every right to be scared of her, too, as she seems to be becoming more and more like the Darkling as her power grows.
The only one of those people/things I see as properly keeping them apart is the Apparat and that's in a literal sense. Emotionally, how does he have control over them?
I found this quote from Nikolai kind of interesting: "If I wanted you to fall out of love with Mal, I’d make him stay here." In my opinion, they seem to romanticize the idea of the other more when the other is absent.
Anyway, this is why I disagree with you. I have no intentions of changing your opinion. I mean only to explain my own as to why I disagree with you, Vindictev, and instead agree with Lys.
If it wasn't for the Darkling, Nikolai, Zoya, or any other external forces, they wouldn't have had any communication or internal problems to begin with. There's always a cause to why people in a relationship start having problems. There isn't one problem I've seen yet from Mal and Alina that were caused by themselves.
If Alina wasn't so busy with the war, Mal wouldn't have felt like shit.
If the Darkling hadn't always been screwing around with Alina's brain and interfering with their relationship, they wouldn't have had communication issues.
So I disagree with you both. Mal and Alina were fine together until other people and the war had to screw everything up.
You are entirely determined to shift the blame off them, aren't you?
They are not blameless, and they, I should hope, have control over their own actions. Mal didn't have to kiss Alina. No one forced him. Alina could have told Mal about seeing the Darkling, but she chose not to. The fact the other people were there and their being there affected the people does not make it their fault.
At least, that's how I see it. I know for a fact that I would hate being told that my actions in, say, ending a "friendship" were because of the existence of other people I liked better. No, I'd prefer to think of it as my ending it because of my own choice and how it made me feel. I don't like the idea of my own actions as a result of me.
Sorry, I guess it's a personal thing, and I believe in self-accountability. It'd probably be better to change the topic before we start a real argument again.
They are not blameless, and they, I should hope, have control over their own actions. Mal didn't have to kiss Alina. No one forced him. Alina could have told Mal about seeing the Darkling, but she chose not to. The fact the other people were there and their being there affected the people does not make it their fault.
At least, that's how I see it. I know for a fact that I would hate being told that my actions in, say, ending a "friendship" were because of the existence of other people I liked better. No, I'd prefer to think of it as my ending it because of my own choice and how it made me feel. I don't like the idea of my own actions as a result of me.
Sorry, I guess it's a personal thing, and I believe in self-accountability. It'd probably be better to change the topic before we start a real argument again.
Vindictev wrote: "Mal and Alina were fine together until other people and the war had to screw everything up. "
Yeah, sure, they were fine. Alina was an unhappy, sickly girl pining after Mal, while he was sleeping around with other girls, never even noticing how Alina, HIS FRIEND, felt about him.
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "Mal and Alina were fine together until other people and the war had to screw everything up. "
Yeah, sure, they were fine. Alina was an unhappy, sickly girl pining after Mal, whi..."
You're grasping at straws. Why do you keep bringing up everything from the past BEFORE Mal and Alina got together? That's the past.
Mal completely ignored those beautiful girls flaunting at him in Cofton. He instead chose the scrawny looking Alina and mentioned she was beautiful even with jurda in her brows.
Also, Alina WAS happy whenever Mal showed up. Excluding Alina's weakness since she couldn't use her powers to not show themselves, they were happy together. Do I need to post evidence?
And memories and experience don't affect people? Also, can we leave this topic alone and agree to disagree? No one is going to back down. We're just going to keep getting more and more irritated. Quite frankly, we all have our own opinions, and I think we should all respect that and try to find a more neutral topic.
Such topics include:
-Tolya and Tamar
-Marie and Sergei
-Genya and David
-Nadia and Adrik
-etc
Such topics include:
-Tolya and Tamar
-Marie and Sergei
-Genya and David
-Nadia and Adrik
-etc
I'm not grasping at straws, just pointing out that their relationship was not a perfect one by any means, and not because of other people. They are just as accountable for their troubles. No one lives in a vacuum.And the "BEFORE they got together" part can tell a lot about their relationship too.
speaking of Tolya and Tamar, am I the only one who doesn't like them? LOLI don't even know why, maybe it's their religious fanatism, but there's something I find unsettling about them.
I find them interesting, Lys, and I want to see what happens with them. So, Tolya and Tamar. Do you think that they will defect to Alina because those people are her friends in Chapter one or for other reasons?
Marie and Sergei I thought were cute, even if they were antagonistic. Also, did you all like them or did you see them as villains? Also, does anyone think that what happened to them end of book 2 was sad?
Do you think that David actually noticed Genya? Do you think Genya knew David actually cared about her?
Do you think that it was a good idea for Adrik to join them? Do you think Nadia would be unstable also because of Marie's death?
Marie and Sergei I thought were cute, even if they were antagonistic. Also, did you all like them or did you see them as villains? Also, does anyone think that what happened to them end of book 2 was sad?
Do you think that David actually noticed Genya? Do you think Genya knew David actually cared about her?
Do you think that it was a good idea for Adrik to join them? Do you think Nadia would be unstable also because of Marie's death?
Lys, I don't particularly like them too. I don't know why people are gushing about them. I still can't get over the fact that Tolya killed Ivan. Which is weird, because I didn't like Ivan either.
Natalia wrote: "I'm not grasping at straws, just pointing out that their relationship was not a perfect one by any means, and not because of other people. They are just as accountable for their troubles. No one li..."You don't make any sense.
There was no "relationship" between Mal and Alina before they got together. Just friendship. There is a reason why people say they're "in a relationship" when they're with someone.
There was no issues with their relationship while they were in Cofton. Issues were caused later because of external forces. Hence why they're star-crossed lovers and why I said they were fine together until everyone else and the war had to screw everything up.
Can we just stop this argument?! Please?! I'm getting frustrated again, and I imagine you probably are too. Can we just change topics? This is going nowhere, and no one's opinion is close to changing!
So:
So, Tolya and Tamar. Do you think that they will defect to Alina because those people are her friends in Chapter one or for other reasons?
Marie and Sergei I thought were cute, even if they were antagonistic. Also, did you all like them or did you see them as villains? Also, does anyone think that what happened to them end of book 2 was sad?
Do you think that David actually noticed Genya? Do you think Genya knew David actually cared about her?
Do you think that it was a good idea for Adrik to join them? Do you think Nadia would be unstable also because of Marie's death?
So:
So, Tolya and Tamar. Do you think that they will defect to Alina because those people are her friends in Chapter one or for other reasons?
Marie and Sergei I thought were cute, even if they were antagonistic. Also, did you all like them or did you see them as villains? Also, does anyone think that what happened to them end of book 2 was sad?
Do you think that David actually noticed Genya? Do you think Genya knew David actually cared about her?
Do you think that it was a good idea for Adrik to join them? Do you think Nadia would be unstable also because of Marie's death?
Tolya and Tamar seem like pretty wild cards to me- unpredictable, but they'll probably end up helping Alina after chapter 1 which will lead to her escape from the Apparat (and gaining her powers again). In my opinion, they're not that interesting, and it's hard to remember which one is which since their names sound so similar. I think by the end of S&S David definitely noticed Genya when she became "the ruined one" and as we saw in chapter 1 of R&R he was doing all he could to help her. I think it took Genya being near death for David to realize his feelings for her.
I think David noticed Genya way before that, though. I forget the exact quote, but Alina and David are talking and he asks about Genya and Alina says something like "Hmmm... he wasn't so blind after all" or something like that.Many people have said they find this pairing cliche but I think it goes beyond "pretty girl/nerdy boy." It makes so much sense in the series context: Genya is defined, in many ways, by her body, by being the king's (reluctant) mistress.
David seems to be the only person in both palaces who doesn't care much about either: her beauty or the fact that she's sleeping with the king.
Genya is just glad he doesn't notice. He is the one person who doesn't treat her any differently and who's not involved in petty intrigued. He just works and ignores everyone equally but he's nice. :)
In a similar situation, it would not be hard to fall in love with someone like that. On his part, I think he just grew to love her, perhaps without knowing it himself at first. She's just so persistent and perhaps the only person who tries to keep him company. Even for a work-absorbed oblivious boy, it would be hard not to notice.
I like them a lot and I wish them happiness.
Genya and David's relationship seems kinds of superficial to me. I never noticed any signs that David cared about Genya, except that he made this salve for the bite wounds. So I don't feel like there is much to discuss them as a couple. I just don't feel the romance/chemistry.Edit: David seems to me the kind of person who is better off without a relationship. The mad scientist type, you know? Whose only true love is his work ))
Oh Natalia, how can you say that? You know how in this story everything is in the details. At the end of S&S, when he sees her crying, ashamed and disfigured he just steps forward and goes to her. He's the one who takes her back from the Darkling. It's such a big gesture. She's at her absolute lowest point and he just puts his arm around her. What else can you ask for really?
@ Cari: the reason I have this impression is, perhaps, because the first time around I didn't really pay much attention to them. I inhaled the book without much chewing, so might have missed many details.I'm going to pay more attention this time around.
Natalia wrote: "Genya and David's relationship seems kinds of superficial to me. I never noticed any signs that David cared about Genya, except that he made this salve for the bite wounds. So I don't feel like the..."*cough* you know *cough* some of us *cough* are actually scientist type *cough* like me*cough*.
Even thoug David is preoccupied by His work I truly think he does genuinely loves Genya.
@Elena: LOL, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I can be quite the "mad scientist" myself when caught up in my hobby. And I certainly didn't mean all scientists in general.I think David cares about Genya, but I just wouldn't use the word "romance". Like I said, maybe this reread will change my mind ))
Elvina wrote: "So, Tolya and Tamar. Do you think that they will defect to Alina because those people are her friends in Chapter one or for other reasons?"Assuming the Apparat is the one who set Tolya and Tamar on an interception path with Alina, I think he took a gamble in doing so. To a degree he may not have realized - I mean, what does he know of Alina? What does he have to base assumptions about her on? They have few interactions in S&B, given Alina (understandably!) went out of her way to avoid him. I don't think he had cause at that point to suspect she could be very charismatic - possibly the opposite actually.
We see indicators in S&S that Tolya and Tamar are true believers and on top of that, they spent a lot of time with Alina herself. I think they've come to believe in her, as opposed to the facade of Sankta Alina the Apparat has assembled. They may not even fully realize it yet themselves, but I think things will come to a head when the Apparat attempts to have the others executed (that looks like that's where that scene is probably going). I don't think the Apparat really realizes this is a risk. If he did, it's hard to believe he would have shut the 'execution squad' in with Tolya and Tamar - both powerful Heartrenders and devastating physical fighters. He must feel they are totally bought in to his platform (I almost said sham, but it may not be a sham, to him. He may believe what he's saying.)
Natalia wrote: "@Elena: LOL, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I can be quite the "mad scientist" myself when caught up in my hobby. And I certainly didn't mean all scientists in general.I think David ca..."
Relax I was just kidding. It's actually my dream to go abroad and study either nuclear physics or genetics! I think Genya and David aren't exactly the passionate love type like The Darkling and Alina, but more of a platonic, pure type of love.
Lys wrote: "speaking of Tolya and Tamar, am I the only one who doesn't like them? LOLI don't even know why, maybe it's their religious fanatism, but there's something I find unsettling about them."
Lol I thought it was only me. It's not that I don't like them, it's that I'm sort of indifferent. They don't feel very distinct to me.
Some characters have the ability to pull you in and make you attached. Some do it almost instantly--for me, Tamar and Tolya are not those characters. I'm just not invested in them.
WinterRose, who are you invested in? Well, besides the obvious :)
Natalia wrote: "Genya and David's relationship seems kinds of superficial to me. I never noticed any signs that David cared about Genya, except that he made this salve for the bite wounds. So I don't feel like the..."Honestly, I don't think this relationship was developed well. :/ David jumped from appearing not to notice Genya at all to loving her. I missed the whole middle, the development, or heck, even some hints would be nice. And why did Genya like David? Why did he like her? I felt like I was being TOLD their relationship more than actually SHOWN.
I like the IDEA of their relationship, but I don't think it was executed well. I just wasn't convinced of their "love."
I think they do love each other, and I think they are probably fairly close book 3 (relatively). I would count my own self as the "mad scientist" type, but more with writing or drawing or language or even history or even more distantly, psychology and astronomy. That would include the "no romance" part for me though.
Natalia wrote: "WinterRose, who are you invested in? Well, besides the obvious :)"In this series?
Besides the obvious (lol), I really do like Genya. I'm also interested in Baghra and her past. I can't say I trust Nikolai entirely, but I am curious how his story will pan out.
Natalia wrote: "Much like in the first two books, I feel like Alina is going to fight with the wrong person against nothing and in the end, when it's too late to change anything, she will finally see the truth and..."I feel this way too but as long as I get some Darkling time I will be satisfied...
I just read a Ruin and Rising review where the person compared the Darkling to Voldemort in Ruin and Rising :///
I would like to say "no offense" but I don't mean it. That review was written by a moron who thinks they need to tell their reader what/how to think about a book.(Also, the comparison is so far-off the mark that really, why????)
Edit- I'm sorry if I seem rude. Normally, I'm quite a civilized person. However that review makes me think of everything that is wrong with our education system.
I have so much anxiety toward this book, I just want the Darkling to end up being just a poor abused puppy haha
It's funny how people can read the same book and have such a different impression, 'cause "star-crossed" is the last expression I'..."
Star-crossed lovers definition: "Star-crossed" or "star-crossed lovers" is a phrase describing a pair of lovers whose relationship is often thwarted by outside forces.
Outside forces thwarting Alina and Mal's relationship:
The Darkling
Nikolai
War
Zoya
The Apparat
etc.
- If they didn't have to be fugitives running away from the Darkling, Alina could have used her powers AND still be healthy while with Mal.
- The Apparat banned Mal from her chamber. Further tearing them apart.
- Zoya is a homewrecker and has made it clear to Alina that she intends to steal Mal.
- Nikolai is trying to make Alina his Queen.
- The war has interrupted them plenty of times. Requiring most of Alina's time and attention. If she wasn't so busy having to deal with the war, her and Mal could have spent more time together
How are these not external forces thwarting their relationship?
I think star-crossed lovers explain Mal and Alina perfectly.