ARCHIVE - AUGUST 2016 - If the Oceans Were Ink: An Unlikely Friendship and a Journey to the Heart of the Quran

[Teri]

Michele's post from the Introduction - moving to a post with spoiler tags

(view spoiler)[Jumping in to join the read on this one.

Reason? I know there is another Islam, one that is not extreme and not on tv all the time. I used to work with a modern muslim woman and learned something of this Islam from her. For me, this will be an extension of that.

As for #3 question: I see many similarities between Radical Right Muslims and Radical Right Christians. Both think they are right in their beliefs and everyone else is wrong. Both seem to be afraid of women and both are (and seem to be) willing to kill. Like the late George Carlin said "the more religions people are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Bentley wrote: " "Week One Discussion Questions – Introduction – pages 1 – 25."

Thanks for joining in, Bentley. I know you'll have some great insights and comments.

(view spoiler)[We may have separation of church and state, but religion seems to be one of the hot topics for this election season.

For me the fascination lies in why people believe the way do, and I think this book will help answer that question. (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Chapter Six Questions
(view spoiler)[
What were your impressions of Akram’s wife Farhana? Of the women of his family? I was struck by Power's comments at the beginning of the chapter about how the status of women's rights (are they to be protected or liberated?) acts as a rallying cry and a barometer for both traditionalist and modernist entities. In either case, women are objectified. Akram's family seems to embody an amalgamation of the traditional and modern but they all seem to be mindful and deliberate about what they choose to embrace of the modern and retain of the traditional. The women in the family seemed pretty grounded to me.

In this chapter, the author talks about Akram's belief that things should happen at the time God wants. Do you think things happen for a reason, at the right time? Do you believe in coincidence or divine intervention? What stuck out for me about Akram's belief system was his habit of cultivating gratitude in his everyday life which keeps him mindful of a creative force in the universe greater than himself. This "attitude of gratitude" is consistent with Christian tradition as well and has become a mantra of many self-help gurus (even Oprah thinks it's a good idea) as a way of being mindful, relieving stress, and connecting with our spiritual selves.

Oprah Winfrey
(hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Chapter 7 Questions

(view spoiler)[ Would you consider Akram a feminist? I don't think Akram considers himself a feminist nor do I think he's a feminist by definition. That being said, he has a lot in common with feminists, but his beliefs about women are rooted in his study of the basic tenets of Islam and identifying where these tenets are contradictory to the traditions around women that have evolved in Islamic culture through the generations. He is a truth seeker without an agenda - feminist or otherwise - but his teachings and his compilation of Islamic women scholars have the potential for inspiring substantial changes, I think. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thanks Teri - I will catch us as I can

[Teri]

Donna wrote: "Chapter Six Questions"

Donna - Chapter 6 - Gratitude

(view spoiler)[I had not really picked up on the gratitude theme. I am glad you did and see that it is a constant theme, so far, throughout the book. I think gratitude in life is important. I remember when Oprah picked up on that as a talking point on her show and had Sarah Ban Breathnach on a few episodes. Have you read any of Breathnach's books? I re-read them from time to time, to try and remind myself to change my attitude if I start feeling irritable in life. ;-)

It really is a core tenet of many religions. Thanks for bringing this up!

by Oprah Winfrey
by Sarah Ban Breathnach (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Donna wrote: "Chapter 7 Questions"

Donna - Feminism

(view spoiler)[I think you're spot on. We'll read more about the feminism topic this coming week, specifically getting Akram's response to the question. I believe that he does want to help inspire changes in views toward women and Islam.

What do you think drives him to be a proponent for women? Is it simply because he is a scholar teaching the Quran or do you think he is influenced by being a the only man in a family of women? :-) (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions - What shapes your life?

(view spoiler)[1. What has shaped your thoughts and beliefs? Family? Tradition?

2. Have your thoughts and beliefs changed as you have grown? What has been your inspiration and influences?

3. Do you continue any traditions from your childhood?

(hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Response Chapter 7 Questions

(view spoiler)[
[1. In this chapter the author talks about the nine thousand women Muslim scholars that Akram learns about. He believes it is important for women to have an education. Denying them that right will stifle their potential. Does lack of education hold a person back?

I think that the lack of an eduction can hold you back in many ways. Earning wages is one of them, also just in social interactions.

2. Would you consider Akram a feminist?

I would not consider him a feminist in the pure sense of the term. More like that his studies have lead him to understand that the Quran doesn't call for women to be hidden, that is culture. I also think that living with a bunch of women may help him understand the female point of view better. (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Teri wrote: "Donna wrote: "Chapter Six Questions"

Donna - Chapter 6 - Gratitude

(view spoiler)[No, I haven't read anything by Breathnach, which is odd because I have read pretty much everything Oprah recommends - lol.

by Sarah Ban Breathnach
by Oprah Winfrey (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Teri wrote: "Donna wrote: "Chapter 7 Questions"

Donna - Feminism

(view spoiler)[I don't get the sense that Akram is as interested in being a proponent for women as he is in interpreting Islamic texts and teachings in a way that is true to their original intent. In one of the videos on the spoiler thread, he states that the study of women scholars was purely accidental originally. I think he is driven by a basic sense of humaneness, fairness and compassion that extends to all - women and men. He speaks to the equality of women while clearly trying to balance this carefully against ingrained cultural traditions. But, yes, I think he is also influenced by his daughters. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kathy's initial comments on the book

(view spoiler)[I am rejoining this group after being away a bit. I started this book a few weeks ago and so far find it enjoyable, although I am often surprised at comments the author makes that suggest an extreme naïveté especially given her background. I have been in Tunisia the last six weeks and it is interesting to me to see how things have evolved here since their democratic revolution. Before the revolution, abayas, hijabs, etc. were prohibited. Now that they are allowed, they are more visible every time I visit. But I do think there is a lot of "we want to look like the Turkish women we see on TV" going on as well as expression of true religious expression.
I am looking forward to the discussion with all of you. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kathy wrote: "I am rejoining this group after being away a bit. I started this book a few weeks ago and so far find it enjoyable,"

Hi Kathy! So glad you are joining us, I think that you will be able to give us a unique perspective for this discussion and I look forward to your further comments.

Please be sure that you are using spoiler tags when discussing themes and issues around the book. If you have questions on how to use the spoiler tags, please see messages 4 and 5 of this thread. For now, I have copy/pasted your comments above in spoiler tags and deleted your original message.

(view spoiler)[That is very interesting about the abayas and hijabs. This is a timely comment as we will be getting into the discussion of Muslim dress and personal identity this week with chapter 9.

I encourage you to read through some of the questions and discussions so far and add your perspective. Thanks for joining us! (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Donna wrote: "Teri wrote: "Donna wrote: "Chapter Six Questions"

Donna - Gratitude - Sarah Ban Breathnach

(view spoiler)[If you have a chance pick up her Simple Abundance book. Her focus is mostly toward married women with children and talks from that perspective, but the themes will appeal to all. It is a kind of secular daily devotional, so January is a good time to start it.

I hope you enjoy it. It will, if nothing else, make you more aware of the things that make *you* happy and what you are grateful for.

by Sarah Ban Breathnach (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries
Week Three

(view spoiler)[Chapter 8 – “The Little Rosy One” – 138 - 155

We are introduced to some of Muhammad’s wives, including Aisha in which the author goes into some detail. Powers discusses Aisha’s marriage to Muhammad and her devotion to the prophet and fighting spirit to continue his teachings after his death. Gender segregation in Islam is discussed as is child brides / age of marriage.


Muhammad's widow, Aisha, battling the fourth caliph Ali in the Battle of the Camel.

Chapter 9 – Veiling and Unveiling – 156 - 174

This chapter focuses on the Islamic woman’s choice to wear a veil, whether it is the hijab or niqab. The subject of Islamic views on sex is also covered.


Differences in women's Islamic dress

Chapter 10 – Reading “The Women” – 175 - 196

The topic for this chapter is the rights of women. Covered are physical rights including the topic of physical abuse, as well as property rights and marital property.


Since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001, many would agree that the political and cultural position of Afghan women has improved substantially.

Chapter 11 – A Pilgrim’s Progress – 197 - 213

This chapter covers the Islamic Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca and specifically discusses the woman’s roles and protocol during the trip. The author also describes her own trip to Cambridge with Akram and his followers for an Itikaf (prolong stay in a Mosque for prayer).


Lahore: Women's Itikaf Camp 2013 (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Personal Identity

(view spoiler)[The reading for this week will go into some depth on the identity of the Muslim woman. We see the Muslim woman as the head of the house, while her husband is the head of the family. She is the family educator and the one that makes sure everything runs smoothly at home, who may or may not be allowed to own property. Depending on what their religion, family, and local society dictates, determines their clothing at home and in public.

1. What do you believe dictates personal identity?

2. Do you think a person's clothing and personal style (i.e. jewelry, tattoos, makeup / hair style) affects another person's view of them? Do you think certain clothing buys into stereotypes?


Fashionable Hijabs (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Teri wrote: "Donna wrote: "Teri wrote: "Donna wrote: "Chapter Six Questions"

Donna - Gratitude - Sarah Ban Breathnach

If you have a chance pick up her Simple Abundance book. Her focus is mostly toward married..."

Thanks, I will do that.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Fashionable Hijabs

(view spoiler)[Who knew - fashionable hijabs (smile). I personally have never seen any of those even in New York City. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Bentley wrote: "Fashionable Hijabs"

Fashionable Hijabs

(view spoiler)[Those in the picture are Dolce and Gabbana, I believe. There are some beautiful ones.

Here's a link to an article about Haute Hijabs, a Muslim owned company of fashionable hijabs:

http://www.elle.com/fashion/accessori... (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

(view spoiler)[I have not seen any of these anywhere aside from basic black but then again I am not an authority on them. They do look more like winter wear to me and they must be rather hot. But I think they are a vast improvement for the young ladies and some look like beautiful stylish coats or outerwear. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

(view spoiler)[ I have not seen the fashionable outfits shown in these pictures, but I did have a Muslim student who wore beautiful hijabs - just the head scarves- to match whatever outfit she was wearing. She wore western style clothing otherwise. She was from a wealthy family in Sudan. She was pretty, intelligent, and very well liked. A Catholic college in Minnesota ended up giving her a full scholarship. They wanted to increase their diversity. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Chapter 8 – pages 138 - 155

(view spoiler)[1. Although he eventually gives his specific opinion on the subject, why do you think Akram avoided denouncing child brides?

2. On page 149, Akram states "One culture could never understand another 'unless they understand the main foundation of the culture.'" Do you think that it is possible for an outsider to truly understand another culture?

3. Does putting actions in context justify the legitimacy of those actions?


A Muslim marriage (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Since I am taking a short vacation and won't be back until sometime Sat. here are my thoughts on Chap. 8, 9 and 10.

(view spoiler)[
Chap. 8 : This chap. got me on the angry side. I could not understand how Akram could possibly justify child brides. He seemed to be thinking in legal terms and not thinking with empathy. It was not until two of his female students, who had seen, first hand, the damage done to these girls, started debating and arguing with him, that he started to change his mind.

Chap. 9: This chap. on dress and the veil was an interesting one. Akram is arguing that the Quran calls for modesty for both men and women and wearing a veil of any kind, should be a women's choice. That is the key difference. The women choosing and not being forced. So many times the women are forced. I found this online, a video of Syrian women burning their burqas after being freed from ISIS.

“Damn this stupid invention that they made us wear,” one woman said as she set light to the black garment. “We’re humans, we have our freedom.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wor...

Chap. 10: Chap. on how the Quran treats women, dealing with that problem verse on guardianship and hitting. Akram seems to favor a narrow interpretation. Men are supposed to be guardians, to protect, not to beat, dominate or abuse their wives. As Akram sees it, the Quran gives women protection, but it is the fault and failing of people who cannot see that. Sounds good to me, but is so often not what happens. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Michele wrote: "Since I am taking a short vacation and won't be back until sometime Sat. here are my thoughts on Chap. 8, 9 and 10."

Michele - Chapters 8-10

Enjoy your vacation! I hope it's relaxing and enjoyable.

(view spoiler)[I was really kind of surprised myself that Akram would not make a decided comment on child brides until he was kind of pushed on it. I'm not convinced that he thinks it is wrong. I do think he truly believes that according to the Quran that at that time, Muhammad and Aisha's marriage was inspired by God and that nothing was wrong with it. I would have thought that in the 21st century, Akram would believe things are different.

Thank you for that link! When you're back from vacation, I encourage you to add it to our spoiler thread for this read: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I think a similar occurrence happened in Afghanistan as well. I was fascinated by this chapter.

Now chapter 10 ruffled my feathers a little. You brought out the point of this chapter well. As Akram explains it, men are suppose to only be a protector and provider, but the woman runs the house. It appears that is not always the case though. How do you think that it ends up being the case? Is it purely cultural? (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Teri, Thanks. I am leaving in the morning.

(view spoiler)[ I did put the link in the spoiler thread, thought I would get that done while I was thinking about it.

Is it purely cultural? Thats a good question. I think it is arabic culture along with what we would call misogyny. Some men seem to be very threated by strong women and will do anything to "put her in her place." Arabic culture seems to have developed a steak of misogyny, as well. So I think its a mixture of things, culture and the perception of male power. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Chapter 9 – pages 156 - 174

(view spoiler)[1. On page 157, the Sheikh states that modest Muslim covering should render for women "that they be present and visible, with the power of their bodies switched off." Do you think the Niqab or other covering make a woman invisible or absent or present and visible?

2. Are you surprised that some Muslim women are equally nervous of women wearing Niqabs?

3. On page 165, the author describes an incident where she walks in on a colleague of hers praying. She quietly leaves and later apologizes. His reply, "That's the difference between us...You Westerners make love in public and pray in private. We Muslims do exactly the opposite." What are your thoughts on this statement?


The Niqab (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Week Three Discussion Questions
(view spoiler)[
1. Although he eventually gives his specific opinion on the subject, why do you think Akram avoided denouncing child brides?

I think as one who based his own conduct and life entirely on the sayings and behavior of Mohamed, Akram found it extremely difficult to criticize anything that the prophet did. It was impossible for me to sympathize with his rationalizations for permitting child brides. I was surprised he bent on this issue in the end.

2. hijabs (head scarves)
I think that Akram was on the right track in emphasizing internal purity rather than outward trappings.

It was interesting to read how many questions he had about wearing makeup. I think he must be opposed to the high fashion hijab/body coverings.


The author points out that wearing a hijab was politicized by European countries and local dictators who banned it in order to force women to become more westernized. Even today, French students are forbidden to wear hijabs in school. The secular governments of Turkey, Iran, and Tunisia have banned wearing hijabs in school and in public buildings in the past.

This background makes it easier for me to understand why so many women today want to wear the hijab as a sign of their identity as Muslims. For them it is a sign of pride in their religion and culture.

3. Do you think the Niqab or other covering make a woman invisible or absent or present and visible?

Great question Terri. In a European country like Great Britain, wearing a Niqab (which covers all but the eyes) can only make a woman more visible. It seems like the opposite of modesty.

For the life of me I cannot understand why Akram's daughter wants to wear one. These are so bulky and hot!

Niqabs are banned in public places in France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. I think partly this is because of security concerns. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "Week Three Discussion Questions"

Ann - Niqab / Hijab

(view spoiler)[I know for some women it is an identity thing. But I wonder if there is some feeling of safety to wearing the Niqab or Hijab. I have a friend who is a counselor and has/had a client that chose to wear her Hijab duty to safety issues. I don't know the details past that but when I mentioned I was reading this book to her, she had relay that information. Like you, I would think it is hot and not easy to get around.

Then again, I live in south Texas where it's hot wearing anything. ;-) (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Chapter 10 – pages 175 - 198

(view spoiler)[1. What does the term feminist mean to you? Do you consider yourself a feminist or support feminism?

2. The author discusses the role of men and women in Muslim family systems. According to Akram, the men have to do work, but women can choose what they want to do. Akram states "For men it is a duty, they must do!...Men must go, and women can choose." What are your thoughts on this statement?


Muslim women cooking (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Niqab / Hijab

(view spoiler)[
That's interesting information about your friend's client. Do I understand correctly that she was talking only about the hijab (which I believe is generally used for the head covering which does not cover the face) as opposed to the niqab which covers all but the eyes?

I'm curious if she was talking about this country as opposed to her native country (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Reference to Week Three Discussion Questions:

(view spoiler)[I often wonder in cooking if those scarves and robes - niqabs and hijab - are not fire hazards. I know when our family is cooking we get sleeves and apron pieces and everything else sometimes in the way. I was looking at the photo of Muslim women cooking.

I wonder whether the amount of choice that a women has if they are Muslim depends upon to a large extent the country they find themselves in when they make any choice. Did anybody else wonder about that - because in Saudi Arabia for example women cannot even drive a car by themselves. That certainly cuts back on choices. I am not sure that this is as benign as Akram thinks it is but then again being in Britain - Muslim women's choices and options are a lot different.

See this link: http://www.theweek.co.uk/60339/nine-t...

and others:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%2...

http://www.soundvision.com/article/th...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie... (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Women

(view spoiler)[ That's an interesting article about women in Saudi Arabia, Bentley. The Saudi rulers have made a deal with the devil in supporting the very conservative Wahhabi religious movement and allowing their leaders to control social policy in return for not questioning the political leadership.

For that matter, I also think that the United States has made a deal with the devil in supporting Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabis, with the support of the Saudi government, have established mosques throughout the world that support radical fundamentalism. At the present, the U.S. is supplying a huge amount of military equipment to the Saudis, who are using it to bomb schools and hospitals in Yemen.

The support for Saudi Arabia goes back a long way - both Republicans and Democrats have supported the country. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "Niqab / Hijab

Ann - Hijab

(view spoiler)[I asked my friend to clarify a bit, it was more along the lines of her being a teenager exploring her "identity", akin to an Indian woman wearing a sari, or an African American wearing a kaftan. She felt safe in this identity. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Terri,
(view spoiler)[ Thanks for the clarification. I can understand that it is comforting to be part of a group and to show that in your dress. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Ann and Teri - Women

(view spoiler)[I am glad you found it interesting Ann - I did too and I think that depending upon the country you are a Muslim woman in - you would have a real difference in available choices if any.

In one of the articles - the women felt that if they did not wear the hijab and/or niqab then they would have been shunned by their group and family and in fact when one did not wear them - their aunt called them and told them they would not be welcome any longer in her home.

Huge social pressure. Just think if your teenager wore something that was not to your liking but instead of advocating why they should not wear a specific selection and offering alternatives or a rationale viewpoint - instead you told your daughter or niece that since she made this choice that she was no longer welcome in the family circle or into your home or even her own. It is like being an outcast from the only family circle you know.

And again I am not disputing the many ideas that Akram had or his rationale but his not being a woman or one of his own daughters does seem to bias for me his sentiments. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Hijab
(view spoiler)[
I have now looked at the other articles you posted, Bentley. The one from the Huffington Post is written by "former" Muslims. It is easy for me to understand their perspective because I am from a western culture where the hijab seems foreign.

Here is another article from the Huffington Post which gives a different perspective: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/t...
The title is "The Beautiful Reasons Why These Women Love Wearing A Hijab"

The Sheikh would not approve of the high-fashioned beautiful hijabs that are pictured! As I understand it, the hijab and other coverings are supposed to be worn as a sign of modesty, and a way of diminishing one's sexual allure. These women don't fit that model!

You are right that attitudes towards the hijab depend on the place and local culture. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "Hijab.."

Fashionable Hijabs

(view spoiler)[That's where I think it's a pure identity thing. They're not wearing them for their original intended purpose, but to be identified as, and celebrate their Islamic heritage. They all talk about their personal identities in those pictures.

I wonder what they would think of the Shiekh? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Chapter 11 – pages 197 - 213

(view spoiler)[1. Have you or anyone you know ever made / attended / planned a meaningful trip or event? What do you think people gain from attending pilgrimages like the Hajj?

2. What most surprised you about the protocol for women during the Hajj or Itikaf?


Robed Muslim pilgrims circumambulate around the Kaaba, a sacred Islamic building in Mecca during the Hajj (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Reference to Week Three Discussion Questions
(view spoiler)[Regarding Akram's equivocations about child brides, I agree with Ann that he is reticent to criticize Mohammad. I found his argument - some young girls mature differently - unconvincing and disappointing. He did come around with pressure from his students but he could potentially influence thinking about this practice with a more well thought out argument against it that takes into account cultural elements of the past as compared with the modern day.

I think the Naqib serves to make the individual anonymous. Power mentions that she didn't recognize Sumaiya at one point until she spoke to her. Anonymity might feel comforting and safe for some, but when I see women wearing the Naqib, it makes me feel claustrophobic physically and emotionally. Sumaiya has a choice that many Muslim women do not have. Where they don't have this choice of "to wear or not to wear" the Naqib or other traditional religious dress, Muslim women are at the mercy of Muslim men on the one hand and Western lawmakers on the other. The first article below talks about Germany's proposed legislation to ban face coverings. The second discusses cities in France that are banning the "burkini" on French beaches following the attack in Nice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/wor...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/18/wor... (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Donna - Week 3 discussion Problems
(view spoiler)[ Thanks for the links to the articles on banning burqas and niqabs in Germany and the burkini bathing suits in France. Some of the leaders who want to ban them have never even seen them!

I can understand the desire to ban burqas and niqabs, but the movement against burkinis seems like blatant prejudice. (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Reply to Ann - Week 3 discussion Problems!

(view spoiler)[I agree! I think the arguments are weak in both articles. In any case, the women who are directly affected have no voice it would seem. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Donna - Articles

(view spoiler)[When you have a chance will you add the links to our spoiler thread? Thanks! (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Wrapping up the week - The Muslim Home and Chapter 10 - pages 179 - 181

(view spoiler)[We are at the end of the week and wrapping up another great discussion. We have concentrated the last week and a half on the Muslim home and have just touched base on the Muslim out in the world. So I have a couple of questions for you as we wrap up this section:

In chapter 10 on pages 179 - 181 the author talks about the differences between the Muslim man and woman. Specifically the discussion is around the Quran's chapter / verse 4:34. This is part of the sura An-Nisa, a chapter that is devoted to the Muslim woman. Here is the Yusuf Ali translation:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

1. What are your thoughts on this verse?

2. On page 180 Akram discusses the Quran and the Bible's version of creation of man and woman aka Adam / Eve story. He states that the Quran comes from the "assumption of absolute equality in creation." He feels that the Biblical Adam and Eve portrays the woman as inferior to Adam, as merely a helpmeet, where in the Quran creation is from a single soul with both man and woman equal. What are your thoughts on this explanation? Can you compare / contrast the way Christians view men / women and equality vs. the Islamic way? How about other religions / faiths?


Painting from Manafi al-Hayawan (The Useful Animals), depicting Adam and Eve. From Maragheh in Iran, 1294–99 (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Ann wrote: "Donna - Week 3 discussion Problems
Thanks for the links to the articles on banning burqas and niqabs in Germany and the burkini bathing suits in France. Some of the leaders who want to ban them ha..."

(view spoiler)[Hmmm - not wanting to get involved with the politics but I disagree - I think that this attire can cover a lot and hide a lot and folks do now want to worry about terrorism and I think they have a point. Also it is not the culture or the heritage of the country itself and I really cannot think of any religion that makes their women or men dress like that and/or if they don't that they will be shunned by their family and friends.

I totally understand why the European countries are feeling this way. Totally understand.

In England there are now neighborhoods where regular law enforcement are being harassed if they show up or if just another English citizen is driving down the English streets. I think the fact that it has gone too far is the reason that this is being banned and I think rightly so.

I think that this is an extremely touchy subject but one that needs to be addressed. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Bentley
(view spoiler)[I'm with you on the burqas and niqabs, but I have no problem with the burkinis. These are form fitting and if a woman wants to wear one in order to cover up and feel modest, I think that's okay. I don't think they can hide anything in them, although they certainly can with the burqa and niqab. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Wrapping up the week - The Muslim Home and Chapter 10 - pages 179 - 181
(view spoiler)[

Once again, excellent questions Terri.

I am not surprised that Mohamed had a very paternalistic attitude towards women's place in the home and that he said men could beat their wives under certain circumstances. After all, this is a man who was born in the year 570 into a nomadic desert culture. I was surprised by some of his more progressive ideas - women should inherit and participate openly in their new religion, for example. (The latter changed with time, but that was not Mohamed's fault).

The problems come in when you try to literally apply Mohamed's words and actions to our 21st century environment. It doesn't work, and neither does it work when fundamentalist Christians try to do it with the Bible.

But then that is my very secular viewpoint. I like this book not because I agree with everything but because it helps me understand Islam and to appreciate what is of value in the culture. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "Week Three Discussion Questions - Wrapping up the week - The Muslim Home and Chapter 10 - pages 179 - 181."

Ann - Taking the Quran and Bible literally

(view spoiler)[Well said and I whole-heartedly agree that we see people take these texts literally at times. I have seen people say that some verses should be literal and others should not, but cannot say why. These are the people that I believe learn and regurgitate what they are taught without truly understanding and making up their own minds.

I also echo your sentiment that this is a great book to help understand Islam. I think this coming week will bring more to light on their religious teachings (i.e. not just issues dealing with women). I think we have a good week of discussion coming up. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Three Discussion Questions - Wrapping up the week - the Muslim in the World - Chapter 11

(view spoiler)[Chapter 11 was our introduction into the theme of the Muslim in the world. Two Muslim events, The Hajj and the Itikaf, were discussed.

1. Do you think it is important to isolate yourself from the world to truly worship and / or reflect? How about other areas of your life? i.e. to study, read, plan? How much "noise" do you deal with in your everyday life?

2. Did you notice any differences from how an Islamic woman conducts herself at home versus in public?


I'tikaf: a spiritual breath of fresh air (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Reply: Discussion Questions - Chap. 11

(view spoiler)[
1. Do you think it is important to isolate yourself from the world to truly worship and / or reflect? How about other areas of your life? i.e. to study, read, plan? How much "noise" do you deal with in your everyday life?

Isolating yourself from the world sure helps cut down on distractions! It may be the only "quiet" time you get to read, reflect or whatever. Since I live in an suburban area, it can get noisy at times. Being the introvert that I am, quiet time is essential.

2. Did you notice any differences from how an Islamic woman conducts herself at home versus in public?

There does seem to be some differences. In the home, she seems freer in many ways or maybe just the true personality comes out. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Michele wrote: " Reply: Discussion Questions - Chap. 11."

Michele - Noise and Distraction

(view spoiler)[I think that is typical for most people, needing pure quiet time. I think it also depends on what you're doing and what's going on. I can read with the TV on or people talking, but I can NOT sleep on a plane with so much going on. Now my husband will fall asleep before we've pushed back from the gate. (hide spoiler)]