ARCHIVE - AUGUST 2016 - If the Oceans Were Ink: An Unlikely Friendship and a Journey to the Heart of the Quran

[Samanta]

Week One Discussion Questions – Chapter 3 – pages 49 – 61

(view spoiler)[1. Do you think a person can be a traditionalist in his beliefs, and still accept and champion some modern aspects of our society? Is that person really a traditionalist, then?

2. Have you read "The Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie? Are you familiar with the controversy surrounding it? What do you think of it?

by Salman Rushdie (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Week One Discussion Questions – Chapter 3 – pages 62 – 72

(view spoiler)[3. Are you familiar with the term "fatwa"? Can you explain it and give us example, if you know of any?

4. In the book, the Prophet Muhammad is described as a politician, diplomat, warrior, devoted family man, polygamist, human rights advocate, revolutionary. How much do you know about his life? Do you agree with the above mentioned descriptions?

5. "When he fretted over how Islam had become mere identity for many Muslims, a matter of clannishness and fashion, rather than piety, I recognized myself, only more so."
Do you think that, today, religion has become a matter of "clannishness and fashion, rather than piety"? Are there many people, in your opinion, who attend church because they are truly pious and live by the Holy Book of the religion they belong to? What is the situation in your community? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hello everyone! I hope you've had a chance to dig into the Introduction and chapters 1-3 this week. Tomorrow we'll get into chapters 4-7.

If you haven't had a chance, peruse the questions that Samanta has posted, or give us your thoughts and views on this week's reading.

Week One Question

(view spoiler)[In chapter 2 and 3 this week, we learned a bit about our author and about her teacher.

What similarities and differences do you see in these two people from very different backgrounds?


Carla Power and Sheikh Mohammad Akran Nadwi (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries
Week Two

(view spoiler)[Chapter 4 – Road Trip to the Indian Madrasa – 73 - 96

The author travels to Lucknow, India to visit with the Sheikh on his first visit home in four years. The author reflects on the blend of cultures in India. We get a look at the madrasa (school) that Akram established in Lucknow. Discussion of differences in madrasas and teachings. The author meets Akram’s family. We learn about Akram’s childhood and his college days. Purdah is explained.


Nadwat al-Ulama in Lucknow, India

Chapter 5 – Migrant's Prayer Mat – 97- 112

Prince Charles visits the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies. We learn the details to Akram’s move to Oxford to work at the centre and his early days working there. Taqwa is explained.


Prince Charles speaking at the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies

Chapter 6 – Pioneer Life in Oxford – 113 - 127

This chapter covers the place women hold in Islam. The author and her daughters visit Akram’s home in Oxford. There is a discussion on the education of Muslim women.


Educating Muslim Women in Modern India

Chapter 7 – Nine Thousand Hidden Women – 128 - 137

This chapter focuses on the nine thousand women scholars of Islam that Akram discovered. Akram devotes much time to learning and writing about these women.


Bibi Aisha Abu Bakr: Wife of the Prophet (swt), Islamic Scholar, Hadith narrator, and Battle commander. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions - A Duck Out of Water

(view spoiler)[The chapters in this week's reading focus on the author's visits and interviews with Akram's family and home, and also on Muslim women.

1. Have you ever questioned your own beliefs and traditions? Are you the type to dig into understanding of your own beliefs, faith, protocol, traditions, or do you simply stick to the traditions passed on by your ancestors?

2. Have you ever visited an unfamiliar place where protocol was very different from your own surroundings? How did you handle it? Have you had someone very foreign to your surroundings visit you? Were you able to find common ground?


The Sheikh and Carla Power sitting outside an Oxford Kebab House, (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Week One Discussion Quetions - Chapter 3 - pp 49-61

(view spoiler)[
1. Do you think a person can be a traditionalist in his beliefs, and still accept and champion some modern aspects of our society? Is that person really a traditionalist, then?

In the purest sense of the definition of traditionalist, no, but I think this is the reality for most people and has been through the ages. It so often has been the point of dissension between the older and younger generations. Right now, I'm reminded of the musical, "Fiddler on the Roof" and Tevye's attempts to hold on to his Jewish cultural and religious traditions in the face of outside influences and his daughters' desires to live their lives differently.

2. Have you read "The Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie? Are you familiar with the controversy surrounding it? What do you think of it?

I remember being appalled and very frightened for Rushdie when I first heard about the fatwa calling for his death. I remember that he went into hiding for years. I have a copy of the book on my shelf; it may be a good time to move it up on my to-read list. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions – Chapter 4 – pages 73 – 82

(view spoiler)[1. In this chapter the author talks about how madrasas all over can differ in the way they teach. Can you compare / contrast this with other religions/faiths or even other schools? i.e. could you liken this with different denominations of Christianity?

2. In the author's speech at Akram's school in Lucknow, she makes the statement, "Cultural dialogue is the world's most powerful weapon against extremism of any kind...Genuine engagement between people holding different points of view is the best hope for making this increasingly polarized planet work." How do you feel about this statement? What ideas do you have for bringing together people of different backgrounds/worlds?


Carla Power (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Donna wrote: " Week One Discussion Quetions - Chapter 3 - pp 49-61"

Response to Donna - Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[The author goes into more detail in this current weeks read about traditionalists and modern society. But this is a good lead in question. I had not thought about Tevye but I would agree with that. So I will be curious about your thoughts on Akram as we get into the coming chapters. Do you consider Akram a pure traditionalist?

I've not read The Satanic Verses myself. I had heard about the call for Rushdie's death but didn't know the details.

Don't forget your citations. ;-)

by Joseph Stein (no photo)
by Salman Rushdie (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

WEEK ONE DISCUSSION QUESTIONS - CHAPTER 3, msg. 53
(view spoiler)[
1. Fatwa
The only fatwa I was familiar with was the one issued by the Ayatollah Khomeini against Rushdie. It said he should be killed for blasphemy. I wrongly thought that all fatwas were like this.

In reading about fatwas in general on Wikipedia I find that it is simply a request to a religious authority to rule on whether something is allowable for pious Muslims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa

In the book we are discussing, the Sheikh issues a fatwa saying that is acceptable for Muslim women to have short hair. He said it was okay, based on the fact that Muhammad's wives cut their hair short after he died. I thought this was begging the question since I think that cutting hair off is a traditional mourning ritual in many cultures.

Samanta referred to the many facets of Muhammad's life mentioned in the Quran. After reading this, I had a much better impression of this religious leader. Although Islam is deemed a bloody culture nowadays, Muhammad's battles were very small scale and not many were killed.

I was impressed to read that women were allowed to hold and dispose of property. I thought that was progressive, but I also wondered how much this was already accepted in his culture. His first wife, a widow, was one of the richest traders in Mecca.

3. I think that in the United States many people are sincerely religious, although I am not among them. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Week one discussion questions Chapter 3, messages 52
Samanta, Terri, and Donna
(view spoiler)[
Do you think a person can be a traditionalist in his beliefs, and still accept and champion some modern aspects of our society?
I think this is an excellent question. The Sheikh does seem modern in many ways, but he also believes that the Quran is the lieteral word of God. That puts him in a difficult position sometimes.

I can't find the place now, but Carla Power does mention that he believes in the literal fires of hell and in the legitimacy of polygamy.

In this day and age, that last one really disturbs me. In the Old Testament, Abraham, David, and Solomon had multiple wives, but even traditional Jews do not accept polygamy now.

Can you be a traditionalist, but still believe that some of the customs of religious leaders were the effect of their historical cultures rather than God's message?

Donna, I liked your example of Tevye. He could accept a lot of the changes taking place, but not his daughter marrying outside of her faith and tradition. (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Response: Week 2 - Chap. 4 Questions

(view spoiler)[ 1. In this chapter the author talks about how madrasas all over can differ in the way they teach. Can you compare / contrast this with other religions/faiths or even other schools? i.e. could you liken this with different denominations of Christianity?

the only comparison I can come up with in my life is Vacation Bible School and the classes at church. It was the Prysb. Vacation Bible school that I went to, with my cousin. We got mostly bible studies and did have "children's bible's" to study from. Lots of stories there, but it was age dependent. Same with the classes during the year. One lesson I remember was in the Esp. church. I got a free Bible as part of the "ask and you shall receive lesson." I still have that Bible and its not the usual translation either.

2. In the author's speech at Akram's school in Lucknow, she makes the statement, "Cultural dialogue is the world's most powerful weapon against extremism of any kind...Genuine engagement between people holding different points of view is the best hope for making this increasingly polarized planet work." How do you feel about this statement? What ideas do you have for bringing together people of different backgrounds/worlds?

I found that one to be interesting. It runs right in line with this book that I just got done reading not too long ago.

Holy Lands: Reviving Pluralism in the Middle East
by Nicolas Pelham (no photo).

Instead of people living in there own little encloaves, mix it up. Put Muslims next to Jews, next to Christians, in one neighborhood. (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Chapter 4

Maybe I shouldn't comment yet since I'm only several pages into this chapter, but (view spoiler)[I'm becoming irritated with Power's writing. I find that she birdwalks in a way that is distracting to me, such as by making connections that seem only slightly relevant - comments about her father's "outsiderism" as she stood ready to address the madrasa, for one. Another thing that is bothering me is the strictly anecdotal nature of her assertions, i.e., "Not all madrasas are built on rote learning and rigid certainty", followed by an example or two. Here I would have preferred some data to support the anecdotal evidence. Although I personally don't doubt the assertion, data would have made the case stronger imo. In addition to not loving the meandering writing style, I had hoped by reading the book to get a little closer to the heart of Islam. Here my expectations may be at fault as the title clearly states that the book is a journey to the heart of the Quran, not Islam. I erroneously conflated the two in my mind, not quite realizing that for many practicing Muslims, culture, law and custom trump the Quran in terms of religious practice and lifestyle, and this is an obvious point of the book - that is, to get at the Quran outside of the misinterpretations and mutations down through the ages. I will keep reading and try to glean what I can, but so far I am getting a more satisfying, cohesive view of Islam (as it has been practiced and developed through history) from a book I am reading concurrently, Islam, A Short History. Perhaps in my lack of knowledge, I am more able to benefit from the straightforward analysis given in Armstrong's book rather than Power's nuanced discussion.

by Karen Armstrong (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Donna wrote: "Chapter 4

Maybe I shouldn't comment yet since I'm only several pages into this chapter, but I'm becoming irritated with Power's writing. I find that she birdwalks in a way that is distracting to m..."

Response to Donna

(view spoiler)[I've read the book that you are reading about Islam, and yes, it's a completely different thing than Power's book. Islam: A Short history is a purely historical book (and, I hope, objective) that gives you pure date about Islam, while this books is a more subjective and personal recounting of getting closer to the Holy Book of Islam. I haven't yet read past chapter 3, but I do not think it will give you the kind of historical data the Armstrong's book gives, but give it a try.

by Karen Armstrong (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Serene wrote: "1. I'm a Baha'i, a member of the Baha'i Faith as well as a history buff. I know a bit about the Quran, more about Islam itself.
2. I did know about the women scholars. That's what is so frustrating..."

Hi, Serene! Since this is a one thread discussion, we have to put all or posts to spoiler brackets. Please, see messages 4 and 5 for instructions. Thank you! :)

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "WEEK ONE DISCUSSION QUESTIONS - CHAPTER 3, msg. 53"

Response to Ann - Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[I really was not aware of fatwas before this book. I knew a hint of what one was due to the Rushdie issue, but that was the long and short of it. It's very interesting to read about some of these. I was looking on line and reading about who all issues fatwas and how they are issued. I was humored to read that there are fatwas on Pokemon Go.

I'm very curious how the fatwas work with who can override who. Using the Pokemon Go example, it appears that if you live in an area where something is forbidden, but leave that area and go somewhere where it is not, then it is ok to play. In that respect, not very different then secular laws. Would you agree with that? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "Week one discussion questions Chapter 3, messages 52."

Response to Anne - Chapter 3 - Traditionalist vs. Modernist

(view spoiler)[This is going to be a theme for this week as well, and I suspect throughout the whole month. I feel like Akram is very traditionalist, but perhaps he finds way to allow certain modern behaviors. I've not decided if he really feels it is acceptable by the Quran or if there is a progressive side to him. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Donna wrote: "Chapter 4"

Response to Donna - on Carla Powers' writing

(view spoiler)[I have not been bothered by the writing. I honestly did not know what to expect from this book. But to your point, I had highlighted the comment you had posted that Powers made about the different styles of teaching among different madrasas. When I went back to use that as a topic for questions/discussion, I did realize that not a lot was said in detail. So I do understand your point of view.

I feel like we're still at the "introductory" section and just starting to move into the meat of her theme. I'm hoping for more details, but like you, I am thinking it will be more about tidbits of what she learned during that year. If nothing else, it seems to have inspired us all to learn more on our own.

I will also say that Karen Armstrong seems to be a respected author on Islam and several of her books have been posted in our Islam folder: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I think you are starting with a good book of hers. I've not read it myself, so will like to hear your thoughts when you finish.

Karen Armstrong (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Reply to msg 68 Chapter 3 questions
(view spoiler)[
I suppose there could be some fatwa "shopping" to get the answer you want, but I think that sincere Muslims take these things very seriously.

If you can't perform one of the 5 scheduled prayers, you need to make it up later.

This is another example. Some of the Somali Bantu girls I worked with told me they didn't have to fast during Ramadan if they were pregnant or sick, but then they had to make up the fasting time later or their place in the afterworld was at risk. Of course, that is an extremely conservative culture with a very conservative brand of Islam. The girls thought they had to marry the man their parents chose (often at very young age) or their parents would curse them and their babies would be born deformed. The men continued to practice polygamy in the U.S., but only had one "legal" wife.

I like reading about the Sheik's message, because it is very humane and sophisticated. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Responses to Serene and Donna
(view spoiler)[
Serene,
It is nice to have someone with a different religious perspective in this discussion.

Donna,
I can relate to what you are saying about the author. She is only dealing with a quite narrow facet of Islam. She has restricted herself to the core of Islamic teaching in the Quran, primarily as interpreted by one man.

I was raised Catholic. If someone went back to the Bible to get the core message of the Catholic faith and then used that to explain Catholicism, that would never fly. But then, the Catholic Church is very hierarchical and (for the most part) unified. There is one head, the pope, and he makes pronouncements on dogma.

Islam does not have that kind of structure and seems to vary a lot from culture to culture. To a certain extent, the writer has to limit herself.


We'll see how the book progresses. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Serene wrote: "1. I'm a Baha'i, a member of the Baha'i Faith ."

Welcome to the discussion Serene! We're glad you could join us. I look forward to your perspective on this book.

As Samanta mentioned, please put your responses to the discussion questions, and comments specific to the themes and points of the book in spoiler tags so we don't reveal anything to those who have not yet read this far. Thank you!

Response to your questions

(view spoiler)[Where I have heard of the Baha'i Faith, I am not familiar with its teaching and texts. It appears there are many texts and scripture. Is that correct?

Your description of the Quran vs. the Bible certainly makes it sound like it's worth reading to compare the two.

Looking forward to your further comments. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions – Chapter 4 – pages 83 – 96

(view spoiler)[1. The author talks about a post 9-11 Newsweek story titled "Why Do They Hate Us?" She feels that the title of the article was wrong and that through her travels to Muslim areas that the US is not hated, but envied. Do you think the media accurately portrays people of other countries? How does that affect a person's worldview? Have you ever read about a place or visited somewhere and found out that life there is different than you expected?

2. In this chapter we learn about Purdah, where women in certain Muslim and Hindu societies should live in a separate room or behind a curtain, or of dressing in all-enveloping clothes, in order to stay out of the sight of men or strangers. Akram says that "...inside the house women are free, and men are not". Do you think purdah gives or restricts freedoms?

3. What are your thoughts on the disparity of Akram’s family and women he teaches in Oxford. Why do you think he can’t teach freedom in Jamdahan?


The paan or the Indian chewing-gum (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Response to Chapter 4 - pages 73-82

(view spoiler)[So, I finished the chapter and I'm not feeling so cranky now. I found the remainder of the chapter very engaging - life in Jamdahan, Akram's youth, and the Purdah customs in the village as compared with Oxford.

1. I think most Christian denominations have Sunday Schools or summer Bible Schools for children to learn Bible stories and the basic tenets of the Christian faith. These are similar in structure, although I think some denominations may require more memorization than others. There are also Bible study groups for youth and adults. Generally, these are part of the regular weekly activities of the church, whereas it seems the madrasas are separate from the Mosques, perhaps more highly structured and, of course, gender-restricted.

2. I agree with the author's statements about building cultural understanding through conversations. But, even if we don't live in a remote Indian village such as Jamdahan, we often tend to move in self-imposed social circles that are equally as monolithic. We feel more comfortable with those who think, act, and believe as we do. Our author had an unusual childhood that seemed to make her more open to cross cultural interactions and communications. Although she found some drawbacks in her upbringing, I think she was given a wonderful gift. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Donna wrote: " Response to Chapter 4 - pages 73-82."

Response to Donna - Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[Glad to hear the book is shaping up better for you. ;-)

I would be curious how other countries stack up to cross cultural interactions compared to the US and parts of Europe. In the US, we are such melting pot society that most places (cities anyway) it's hard not to come across other cultures. I agree that there are some areas, mainly rural, that may not have this interaction. And yes, even in the large cities, I would agree that many people stick to the circles they are most comfortable with, but at least the opportunity to interact is there.

I'm always excited to hear when our youth have opportunities through school, church, etc. to travel. I traveled the US a lot when I was little, with my family, but Mexico and Canada was a far as I got "internationally".

Do you think that Akram's living in Oxford has changed his views at all as far as his beliefs? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions – Chapter 5 – pages 97 – 112

(view spoiler)[1. In this chapter, Akram talks about the Quran's Yusuf Surah (the biblical Joseph story). He believes this story is a primer on living a God-centered life in a secular world. How well do you think Akram handles living in Oxford, a much more secular place from his home in India? How does this life in Oxford influence his family / daughters?

2. In talking about wearing traditional Muslim clothing, beards, and hijabs, Akram says it is proof of how many have strayed from their religion. "When people come far away from the purity of the religion, the outer aspects of the religion become identity." How do you feel about this statement? Do you think it's easy to become so immersed in something like religion that you lose sight of the core values and tenets?


Yakhni Pulao that Akram learns to make for himself when he moved to Oxford (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Teri on message 76 - cross-cultural interactions

(view spoiler)[Croatia is far from a melting pot US is, so we are not use to seeing different races here. We are still, mostly, closed in our own circle of good white, patriotic and Catholic people, especially after the Homeland war. Even though I met a lot of black people dancing salsa, it's still weird to see a black person on the streets of Zagreb. They just stand out, without even trying. I sometimes feel that we were more progressive in the 19th century, in terms of accepting cultural differences. Back then we opened a city cemetery that accepted people of all races and religions, and it was a huge deal (Catholics, Protestants, Greek-Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims and Jews all buried next to each other). It's still one of the main things tourist admire when they come here. We are, I'm afraid, not so accepting of religious differences now, but young people, who travel a lot during college, keep the odds with the non-progressive part of our society.

Do you think that Akram's living in Oxford has changed his views at all as far as his beliefs?

I believe that it had an influence on the shaping of his beliefs. If you are an intelligent and open-minded person, you cannot close your eyes and pretend that spirituality/religiousness and liberty of thinking and acting can't work well together (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Teri wrote: "Donna wrote: " Response to Chapter 4 - pages 73-82."

Response to Donna - Chapter 4

Glad to hear the book is shaping up better for you. ;-)

I would be curious how other countries stack up to cros..."

(view spoiler)[Yes, I agree that there is much more opportunity for cross cultural interaction in urban areas and the U.S. is more of a melting pot than some countries. But in my travels, I've found that - whether it be the Roma population in a small mountain village in Greece, Muslims in Amsterdam and Brussels, or the expressed contempt of Southern Italians by some in the North - segregation and discrimination exist on some level everywhere. As humans, our brains are busy categorizing and classifying things (and other humans). Through one-on-one interactions, we start to see individuals and not groups of "others." That is a wonderful side effect of travel, especially with a sense of open mindedness and curiosity. (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Response to Chap. 5 Questions

(view spoiler)[ 1. In this chapter, Akram talks about the Quran's Yusuf Surah (the biblical Joseph story). He believes this story is a primer on living a God-centered life in a secular world. How well do you think Akram handles living in Oxford, a much more secular place from his home in India? How does this life in Oxford influence his family / daughters?

Akram seem to be handling living in Oxford, pretty well. He had found a way to reconcile Oxford with his faith. His english born daughters seem to be throughly "western" and he doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

2. In talking about wearing traditional Muslim clothing, beards, and hijabs, Akram says it is proof of how many have strayed from their religion. "When people come far away from the purity of the religion, the outer aspects of the religion become identity." How do you feel about this statement? Do you think it's easy to become so immersed in something like religion that you lose sight of the core values and tenets?

I think that this has happened with many muslims and christians as well. So concerned with looking right they they lose sight of the core of religion, which in both cases would be a relationship with god. I have found that too many people put God in a box and think that box is all there is to the divine. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Cross-cultural interactions

(view spoiler)[
Do you think the media accurately portrays people of other countries?

Very relevant question, Terri. I get most of my news from newspapers rather than TV. However, from what I see on TV, I would have to answer a resounding no.

TV flits from crisis to crisis and focuses on the small minority of people who commit crimes. Americans get the idea that all Muslims are terrorists, that illegal immigrants make a practice of shooting white tourists, and that all African Americans are predisposed to crime.

Does this make a difference? Of course it does. Just look at this presidential election and the attempts to sway voters.

Have you ever read about a place or visited somewhere and found out that life there is different than you expected?
I lived in Japan teaching English to Japanese students and businessmen from 1974-1975. It was a real eyeopener. Of course, I and my fellow teachers really stood out because we were foreign. It was a novel experience being stared at. I also learned to be grateful that I was an American woman because of the greater freedom I had (and that was before women's lib really had much effect!) Of course, that was many years ago and I know that many things have changed in Japan - a place that I will always hold in my heart due to the generosity and kindness of the Japanese people.

Samanta, I was very interested in your remarks about Croatia. I am of Croatian descent on my father's side and we were lucky enough to visit your beautiful country a couple of years ago. The wars in the 1990's make it very difficult for people to forget religious/ethnic differences.

Here in Nebraska, we have had much more exposure to people from other cultures than in the past. My city is a regional medical center and we have doctors from India, Pakistan, China, etc. Immigrants are also active in the technology fields, and we are a resettlement area for refugees. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions – Chapter 6 – pages 113 – 127

(view spoiler)[1. What were your impressions of Akram’s wife Farhana? Of the women of his family?

2. In this chapter, the author talks about Akram's belief that things should happen at the time God wants. Do you think things happen for a reason, at the right time? Do you believe in coincidence or divine intervention?


Sheikh Mohammad Akram Nadwi (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Teri could you delete and repost Serenes comment in 65 - not in spoilers.

[Teri]

Chapter 1 Discussion Questions from Serene

(view spoiler)[1. I'm a Baha'i, a member of the Baha'i Faith as well as a history buff. I know a bit about the Quran, more about Islam itself.
2. I did know about the women scholars. That's what is so frustrating that so many Muslims are taking 1000 years step back in equality between the sexes.
3. never heard of him. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Introduction Discussion Questions from Serene

(view spoiler)[1. Life long obsession - history and reading.

2. Quran or Bible? I know the Bible pretty well, have tried to read the Quran but it's similar to the Bible in that a lot of it just doesn't make sense. There are a lot of the stories from the Old Testament that are retold differently, more meaningfully, actually, and stories of Jesus that make more sense.

3. 9/11, nothing but sadness. That we are all one people and still allow division like this. Shows to me the lack of spiritual energy Islam now has that it's gone off the rails so badly. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Bentley wrote: "Teri could you delete and repost Serenes comment in 65 - not in spoilers."

Done. ;-)

[Ann D]

Answer to Chapter 4 questions
(view spoiler)[

Chapter 4 purdah
It was interesting to read about purdah, but broadminded as I try to be, I can only feel very sad about this terrible limitation on human potential. To only have a view of the outside world by looking up at a small part of the sky – how awful.

At the same time, I do understand the Sheikh’s unwillingness to rock the boat on this issue. These customs are deeply ingrained in the local culture. I imagine the majority of the women find security and comfort in their traditions. As the sheikh says, these kinds of things cannot be changed first in the village, but must be approached at a higher level.

Yes, I definitely do think that Akram’s views have been changed by living in Britain, as well as living in Lucknow, a large city in his own country. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Answer to Chapter 5 questions
(view spoiler)[
Chapter 5 – Living in a God-centered life in a secular world no matter where you are.
I believe that Akram is a holy man and I admire his focus on his internal relationship with God, rather than where he lives or his external circumstances.

I don’t think he developed this philosophy because he is an immigrant, but I think it does help him live in the Western world, which he keeps at a distance.

It sounds like his socialization at the Islamic Center is confined to what he considers his duties. Otherwise, he doesn’t mix much, and he prefers to go home to pray and do his religious ministry.

Chapter 5 –"When people come far away from the purity of the religion, the outer aspects of the religion become identity.

Wow, I really like this statement. I think that many young Muslim women in western countries now wear the Hijab as a sign of group identity, even though their mothers did not do wear it.
I do not mean to question their religious motives, but I don’t think that is all that is involved in their decision. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thanks this is a book I have wanted to read so I had better get cracking. I find the questions fascinating and well as everybody's input.

[Teri]

Welcome to the discussion Bentley. This is a great discussion book.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I believe it is - that is why I thought it deserved to be one of our monthly reads - very thought provoking.

[Helga]

Welcome back Bentley. This is an interesting book and timely.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thank you Helga

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Teri on message 76 - cross-cultural interactions

Samanta - Tourism in Croatia

(view spoiler)[Does there seem to be a pattern of people that come visit Croatia? i.e. Europeans, Americans, etc. Do many from Croatia have a chance to travel? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Michele wrote: " Response to Chap. 5 Questions "

Michele - Putting God in a box

(view spoiler)[Good point. I think people are so concerned with playing the part of a devout follower, that they forget why they are following. Do you think that people tend to continue with what they learned growing up and never dig into why they believe a certain way? Not just religion but politics and social issues? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "Cross-cultural interactions"

Ann - Cross-cultural interactions

(view spoiler)[I think that even in rural areas we are seeing more people from various backgrounds. I think with more and more multi generational immigrants that will continue. My husband's maternal family that immigrated from Sweden settled in Polk, Nebraska. You would not have expected that Nebraska would be a place the Swedish would settle. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Ann wrote: "Answer to Chapter 4 questions
Chapter 4 purdah "

Ann - Purdah

(view spoiler)[I agree, it's kind of hard to wrap your head around this when you have not lived in this fashion. It makes you wonder if it is a tradition that will eventually die out. I suppose there are societies where people will never leave their area and therefore, these traditions will live on, but I suspect they will diminish some over time. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions – Chapter 7 – pages 128 – 137

(view spoiler)[1. In this chapter the author talks about the nine thousand women Muslim scholars that Akram learns about. He believes it is important for women to have an education. Denying them that right will stifle their potential. Does lack of education hold a person back?

2. Would you consider Akram a feminist?


Books on Islam (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Teri on message 76 - cross-cultural interactions

Response to Teri - Tourism in Croatia

(view spoiler)[If we speak about Croatia in general, it depends on the season. During high season (May - October), we get a lot of Europeans from neigbouring contries, who come to our coast, to enjoy the well know 3S trend (sun, sea and sand). Asians are our biggest market (especially in Zagreb), and after them U.S., and then other countries. We are getting an increasing number of Spanish and Portuguese speaking tourist lately. When they come here, Asian tourist do Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro in one sitting. (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Putting God in a box - Response to Teri

(view spoiler)[ That has been my experience Teri. Some people just feel more comfortable with what they knew as children, rather than forging on and doing the hard work of reading the Bible and thinking about it. I have found that I am one of the rare people who have read The Bible, cover to cover, twice. Most haven't even opened that book up! I think you can make the same argument with social and political issues. The currently backlash against the LGBT community is a great example of this. LGBT are unknown to many and the unknown is frighting and what people are afraid of, they also hate. (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Response: Discussion Questions – Chapter 6 – pages 113 – 127

(view spoiler)[
1. What were your impressions of Akram’s wife Farhana? Of the women of his family?

Interesting generational split. Farhana seemed to be more traditioanl but did have her own business. The daughters seemed more modern, but I thought the commentary made on our "culture of individism" was interesting. None of them seemed to understand it.

2. In this chapter, the author talks about Akram's Akram's belief that things should happen at the time God wants. Do you think things happen for a reason, at the right time? Do you believe in coincidence or divine intervention?

I don't know about divine intervention, but some things do seem to happen at "the right time." I can think of a few examples of that. (hide spoiler)]

[Ann D]

Chapter 6 Questions:
(view spoiler)[

What were your impressions of Akram’s wife Farhana? Of the women of his family?
I thought that they were warm and nice people. They were certainly living the simple life, playing very traditional female roles. I liked the author's analogy that their life styles - with homemade games and such -reminded her of the setting of Laura Ingalls Wilder's books. Of course, in Akran's family, life was centered around Allah.

I believe that Akam's attitude toward female education was influenced by the fact that he had 6 daughters and no sons. It was interesting that they were sent to English schools, but not allowed to participate in after school activities. This, and getting rid of TV, really limited outside influence.

2. In this chapter, the author talks about Akram's belief that things should happen at the time God wants. Do you think things happen for a reason, at the right time? Do you believe in coincidence or divine intervention?

I am an agnostic who believes that if God exists he is so far beyond us that we cannot even imagine what he is like. So no, I do not in divine intervention. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

"Week One Discussion Questions – Introduction – pages 1 – 25

(view spoiler)[I wondered at the question about "obsession" - I don't think that I have ever obsessed about anything - but I do know that I have always loved books and reading - music and the arts. Interesting question to ask myself is whether I would call any of these an obsession - I think they are more of a love and/or an enrichment for my life.

I am quite behind everybody but I am enjoying the book very much and am fascinated by the views on women and that the women's place in the Muslim world changed after the reading of Aristotle and other philosophers. Fascinating example of things we did not know or realize or the impact of the Greek philosophers in this way.

I do not consider myself a Bible expert by any means but I have certainly read the Bible - but have never read any of the other books. I have been fascinated to find out more since the religions of the world are of particular interest to me - for me it is fascinating that there are so many different beliefs about god and/or gods and also that every religion and those that believe in that religion sometimes feel that they are certain that they are the chosen ones and others are terribly wrong in their beliefs.

In retrospect - all religions to me seem to be lightning rods and so many terrible things have been done in this world in the name of religion and of god. Very unfortunate but you can see why our founders emphasized the separation of church from state. Good philosophy - then and now.

I was reading some of the other comments and I have to agree that this book is so timely for all of us. As the Washington Post said - it should be mandatory reading. Very helpful insights so far. (hide spoiler)]