Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion
MISCELLANEOUS TOPICS
>
Cults, communes, isolated sects, independent communities
message 51:
by
B.
(new)
Feb 12, 2018 06:06AM
To add fuel to the “Catholic Church is a cult theory”....my son is a month old and we have scheduled his baptism in the Catholic Church(believe me I know it sounds hypocritical)-my wife and her family are strict Catholics and my family, while certainly not being strict, do understand that where we live Catholicism is mainline to best schools in the area. Anyway, I digress....in order to have my son baptized, I had to sit through a course explaining to me that Jesus said you can’t get to heaven without water of baptism touching your head and then hearing the contradictory statement of “but those who never heard of Jesus or babies who die early, they probably go to heaven too”....but the over reaching them was “no baptism equals hell”....and yet, we had to wait to baptize my kid only after taking this course? Seems very controlling and fear mongering. Oh and if you were wondering why we are required to take said course before my son’s eternal souls can be saved from hell.....because the archbishop said so....not kidding that was the explanation. My wife and I were baffled by the sheer lunacy and inconsistency in messaging with regard to what is supposed to be the most sacred of sacraments-seems cheap that in order to “save my son” I need to give money(i.e. be a parishioner) to the church, take a course, fill out paperwork that looks as if designed by department of motor vehicles, get a dispensation from the local priest to have it at my high school church and then follow a two page set of rules on how I will raise my son-oh and if they don’t like his name, they can refuse baptism...not kidding. Sounds like cult like behavior of not the worst damn bureaucracy on the planet. Sorry for the rambling-only in first cup of joe 😂
reply
|
flag
*for the record, I grew up catholic, but believe more in the gnostic tradition of Jesus now. I personally do not attend mass, but respect my wife’s beliefs(although I challenge her some times on things that are inconsistent). I also believe that there is a great power in the universe, God if you will, that sees past trivial things like mundane human acts such as baptism-I believe the kingdom of god is within and not outside of us....I believe the church has misled generations of people for the last two thousand years and that all faiths without religious tenets and prescriptions are basically the same thing-not kidding! Read into gnostic faith, st thomas Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Sufism as a start-many if the same themes and even similar phraseology. Sorry to get off on tangent-I just love this topic 😃👍
My position has evolved to something like B's. It's crazy to wonder where you go when you die because you are already there.
Jim, can you elaborate on what you mean by "we are already there"? I find that an intriguing statement re death...although you wrote it cryptically almost like you're a cult leader wanting to be mysterious! :)Your statement also reminded me of this:
"We are reaching for death on the edge of a candle. We are trying for something that's already found us." -Jim Morrison, An American Prayer
It's always been out in the open. The Kingdom of God is within us. Within, up, down, all metaphors.There are different levels of reality and we exist on all those levels. The physical part may die the our true self, that's on a higher plane, goes on.
The show Babylon 5 had a great analogy. Lenier was explaining how the soul is a non-localized phenomenon. He said something to the effect of "If I shine a light on a wall, the wall is not the source of the light. The light comes from somewhere else but the wall allows us to see it. The soul is not in this body but the body is how you perceive the soul." That's a piss poor paraphrase but I think it conveys the idea.
Unfortunately, analogies are the best we can do. On the material plane, we can only get glimpses of how things really are. Our minds can't hang on for long and what we can translate to words is always a poor approximation. That's why I think any religion that insists on faith but denies gnosis to its followers is an empty shell.
Jim wrote: "It's always been out in the open. The Kingdom of God is within us. Within, up, down, all metaphors.There are different levels of reality and we exist on all those levels. The physical part may di..."
Do you think everyone gets access to this higher plane? Most ancient cultures believed that gnosis was selective and only available to an elite and secretive group of 'chosen' initiates. Another form of cult perhaps?
Harold Perceval believed that you exist in a plane similar to the energy you put forth in life-so negative energy resides in a lower plain and good/high energies reside on a greater plane of existence and can learn before coming back to claim a new vessel. Similar in thought to Hindu ideas of a bardo, svargam, narakam and samsara/karma.An interesting novel written by the great Richard Matheson(turned into a bad movie with Robin Williams) about this very topic is “What Dreams May Come”...I’ve read the novel 3 times as it is both entertaining and enlightening.... considering Matheson was an acolyte of Harold W. Perceval, the philosophy shines very brightly in this novel.
Virtually all native peoples throughout history, from Australian Aborigines to Amazonian tribes to African tribes like the Zulus and Dogons, as well as the pre Christian pagan peoples of Europe all believed in some version of God (for want of a better word) and an Afterlife.
Jim wrote: "It's always been out in the open. The Kingdom of God is within us. Within, up, down, all metaphors...."Yeah. Of course.
But I thought you might've been implying that we are already dead without knowing it and this is the Afterlife...A theory I've heard before.
Anyway, I totally agree with you that any religion that insists on faith but denies gnosis sucks (to paraphrase you!)
Getting back to the main topic of cults...After thinking on it further, and reading comments from all you knowledgeable people in this thread, I tend to believe what someone said earlier about the number of members being crucial...In general, I think what we as a society generally define as cults are usually groups that are fairly small in numbers...As soon as they become large enough (maybe over a million followers or more) they are no longer cults I suspect - even if they retain some cult-like behavior...They instead maybe become destructive organized religions?
On the other hand, I think some of this definition of the word cult might be generational...In that before the age of the internet a cult with hundreds of thousands of followers or less could go almost completely under the radar...And unless a mainstream journalist did an investigative report on them, or unless major crimes were committed by that cult, it was very hard to impossible to find out any info about a spiritual group unless from the group itself...So in that pre-internet age I think cults could capture naive minds a lot easier...Now most people would just google any group to find out stories from members or former members or families of members belonging to them.
The other thing that may seem to tip things into cult status (by our society's definition) might be having a living spiritual or community figurehead who has a lot of power of his/her followers. A Godman on Earth. The Jim Jones or Charles Manson effect I guess.
Some of them are a lot less destructive, or perhaps more clever in covering their tracks, than Jones or Manson however. Others could even potentially be positive leaders who are not abusive and are genuinely wanting to create some type of utopian community in isolation. Others, of course, could also be harmless, but complete madmen!
This cult leader here in Australia claims to be the reincarnation of Jesus himself - and he has a commune in some rural area where he has quite a few believers, I kid you not...
The Australian Jesus - AJ Miller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVw0e...
p.s. Tony, is it safe to assume you are not likely to follow the Aussie Jesus? :)
Iain wrote: "James can you not give some of the interviewes acting tips. ;)..."You're saying you're not a believer in the Aussie Jesus???? How can you not believe what he's saying?! :)
Iain wrote: "On another note, what if they're hapless dupes or pawns in a bigger game, whose dangerous antics allow for 'law makers' or 'pollies', as Aussies call em, to stamp down, in a broader definition of the word, and inflict laws upon not only "wannabe sage messiahs", but those who don't wish to conform or want to protest against society now or its future configuration, especially if it's infringing on human-rights and privacy?..."
Yes, Iain, you're definitely hitting on something here I feel...I think there is a potential, because of the well-reported dangerous history of cults and communes, for the government to shut down any alternative group, including ones who are not harming anyone.
Depending on what happens in the world's future, there may be a return to people wanting to create alternative communities that create a more fair environment for all...And in those rare cases, I think you're right that it wouldn't be fair just to shut them down.
The Australian Jesus - AJ Miller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVw0e...p.s. Tony, is it safe to assume you are not likely to follow the Aussie Jesus? :)
Meet the new Jesus, not the same as the old Jesus! Its always the same bag of tricks....
Tony wrote: "The Australian Jesus - AJ Miller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVw0e...p.s. Tony, is it safe to assume you are not likely to follow the Aussie Jesus? :)
Meet the new Jesus, not the same as th..."
Us human beings seem naturally prone to have "beliefs" we succumb to them so easily it would seem from observation that we might be programmed that way for some evolutionary reason. Forget cults vs religion, look at many popularly held mainstream social/political/moral and other beliefs. I think these are quite often in themselves inherently religious in their nature. Maybe we are designed that way because during our development belief has trumped a need for knowledge often enough to make it a selected trait, no idea. But it sometimes amuses me when the belief that religion is becoming less popular is expressed. We are riddled with religion, possibly it's a genetic imperative, who knows, but whether a god is involved or not seems to me irrelevant. (I will have missed a lot of this discussion, just jumped in with a few minutes-worth when this topic drew my eye, apologies if someone else has made this point already).
This potentially answers some of our earlier questions we all seemed to be having as to what's the difference between a cult and a religion....\
Joe Rogan - What's the Difference Between a Cult and a Religion? - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqYdV...
Are most of the elite and our world leaders actually in a cult?Check out this 13 minute video I just uploaded and let me know what you think...
Do the Elite practice a secret Ancient Religion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23sLF...
Thanks James, Really well put together.... But for all their antics they die just like the rest of us.
Tony wrote: "Thanks James, Really well put together.... But for all their antics they die just like the rest of us."Thanks Tony, but I don't feel all this can be simplified to just asking "do they die, or not"...it's also (I personally sense) about greater knowledge of the reality we are in, which can tie into the wisdom of the ancients, which for centuries has been hoarded by the Elites in their secret societies, the Vatican etc, etc...One perhaps would not be chasing eternal life in the physical form if we had proof (as the Ancients possibly had) of an afterlife or eternal existence beyond the physical...
Plus, there can be sci-fi style concepts like consciousness transference (which could potentially be a form of "not dying")...Where your consciousness gets transferred to, we don't know, but worth remembering many futurists predict eventually technology will evolve to the point that you could transfer your individual consciousness into another body, or a clone of yourself, or some robotic form (singularity)...Probably also worth remembering that the Elites, including in the military, are most likely 50-100 years ahead of mainstream science when all their classified technologies are thrown into the equation -- therefore we don't know for sure that they are not doing consciousness transference already.
Not necessarily saying I subscribe to any of these ideas, just giving examples/scenarios to show why I personally think this is more complicated than just elites exhibiting extended life or immortality...
Which do you think is more likely ? The Elites do not believe in a spiritual after life and therefore are concentrating on creating 'manufactured' immortality. Or do they practise a secret religion that promises immortality of the spirit. I don't think a person can travel two roads at the one time.
I think it's all of the above, Tony, especially as the Elite are not just one unified group but rather various competing factions (including even Good Elites on the side of the common people trying to create a fairer world). I think there are certainly the atheist technology inspired group you're implying exist, but many others exist who are highly spiritual/religious.
James wrote: "From Coast to Coast radio show:In the latter half, author, ufologist and cryptozoologist, Nick Redfern revealed the hidden histories, agendas, and lore of various overlooked secr..."
James wrote: "Cults in Our Midst: The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace is an eye-opener on this subject.
[bookcover:Cults in Our Midst: The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace|..."
Aerial Phenomena Enquiry Network
"Contact began very slowly with a trickle of letters, which at first claimed that they would reveal themselves in due course, and that they were in favour of local UFO groups co-operating. Interestingly, this was at the time when NUFON (Northern UFO Network) was a matter of days old, and was working towards this ideal. So far as is known, over the intervening years only groups within the NUFON system have been contacted, plus one or two individuals.
Cassette tapes have been sent to several people through the years. They are fairly predictable in content. Usually they consist of recordings of radio and TV broadcasts, often involving NUFON group members, which are interspersed with frantic appeals for inter-group unity and statements about UFO hostility. These are recorded by apparently multi-lingual speakers, of both sexes, who sometimes seem to be reading out prepared messages, and sometimes seem to be well on the way to inebriation."
Sounds legit.
http://magonia.haaan.com/2009/apen/
James wrote: "Have always been fascinated by cults and other religious and non-religious groups who attempt to branch away from society by setting up their own communities...Ones that attempt to be fully indepen..."I'm fascinated by cults too, especially their sponsorship by intelligence agencies internationally.
An interesting one is the Cult of Isis that so many famous authors were part of: Poets T.S. Eliot, Stephen Spender and W.H. Auden, and novelists D.H. Lawrence, Christopher Isherwood, and Aldous Huxley. Arnold Toynbee's A Study of History claimed that to prevent the decline of a civilization, a synchophant priesthood was necessary to support the people in power and protect them.
https://www.minds.com/blog/view/66089...
If anybody is looking for a laugh, here's an update of the Aussie Jesus...For The Love Of God: The Man Who Thinks He's Jesus (Cult Documentary) - Real Stories https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXpLV...
James wrote: "If anybody is looking for a laugh, here's an update of the Aussie Jesus...For The Love Of God: The Man Who Thinks He's Jesus (Cult Documentary) - Real Stories https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXpL..."
Note in the 2,000 years that have elapsed, Jesus seems to have now lost all of his powers to create miracles...
Go figure!
Inside the NXIVM Sex Cult’s Secret Plot to Take Over Mexico https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-...According to Catherine Oxenberg, the former Dynasty star who helped take down a sex cult, NXIVM leader Keith Raniere was a man on a sick mission. In her new book, Captive: A Mother's Crusade to Save Her Daughter From a Terrifying Cult, Oxenberg sheds light on a number of Raniere’s more sinister schemes.
THE BATTLE FOR AUM SHINRIKYOhttp://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/the_ba...
A deeper look into the Japanese cult and its involvement with the Tokyo subway Sarin attack
First there was the Aussie Jesus...Now there is the Siberian Jesus...and he's a whole other level of evil :)
Cult Leader Thinks He's Jesus (Documentary Exclusive) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5...
Deep in Siberia's Taiga forest is Vissarion, a cult leader who looks like Jesus and claims to be the voice of God. He's known as "the Teacher" to his 4,000 followers, who initially seem surprisingly normal. Over time, however, their unflinching belief in UFOs and the Earth's imminent demise made this group start to look more and more like some sort of strange cult.
Here's the Goodreads author page for A.J. Miller (aka Aussie Jesus!): https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...Some are co-written with his wife Mary Luck (aka the reincarnation of Mary Magdalene!)
You couldn't make this shit up, I swear...
Anyway, among Aussie Jesus and Mary's books include Interview with Jesus Mary: Introduction to Jesus Mary Session 1
But personally I thought this one with "humility" in the title takes the cake: Interview with Jesus: Humility Session 1
Jesus is back - at least in Brazil! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVQjh...They mention this Jesus is of German extraction...I wonder if that means Nazis that settled in South America post WW2?!
Besides the aforementioned Aussie, Siberian and Brazilian Jesus in this thread, there's also quite a few others around the world including a cross-dressing former British MI6 spy...there's Zulu Jesus in South Africa...then there's Jesus Matayoshi of Japan, a former politician...there's even a female Jesus...but the person who takes the cake for me is a taxi driver in Zambia (who claims to be more senior to Jesus in the hierarchy in heaven, which I don't get if he is actually Jesus...wouldn't he be the same guy?! Seems like he's in competition with himself in a Jesus vs Jesus split brain thing!) SECOND COMING: ‘I’m the reincarnation of Jesus’ https://www.qt.com.au/news/seven-men-...
"AT LEAST seven men around the world claim to be Jesus Christ reincarnated, and many have a following of devoted believers."
Ha, yes. There's a woman named Be Scofield who is writing lots of articles unmasking Tantric cults. She's on Facebook and Medium but Medium wouldn't let her publish her last article on Alex Vartman -- censorship. So she's expanding elsewhere and hoping people will share. http://gurumag.com/the-mad-hatter-ins...
yes, I realized you were making a joke, but i thought since this Discussion Topic was about cults, something about cults was appropriate.
Tantra wrote: "yes, I realized you were making a joke, but i thought since this Discussion Topic was about cults, something about cults was appropriate."Yep, keep the cult stuff coming. They are really fascinating...And I think cults are almost like a microcosm of how people are easily brainwashed in the real world (albeit often less subtly than signing up to follow certain cult leaders).
Me too. It's the mass brainwashing by news anchors and peer pressure to virtue signal that never ceases to amaze me. Some people have speculated that the flicker rate on the TV explains the recent extreme gullibility, but many people don't get their news from actual TVs. It seems like people's empathy and kind generosity are being played, and their assumptions that people who don't believe what the same newscasters say are cruel and heartless. Though people are less manipulatable now through superstition than they once were, they seem more easily manipulated than ever through polarization and demonization of partisanism. I assume people could be more unbalanced due to chemicals in the air and water and thus have a harder time discerning cons.
But I also wonder if there are some cults in that political figures are in that might actually have some power over the crowds through the function of the egregore.
I've seen examples of egregores actually becoming real, so while it may be a matter of false interpretation, I tend to suspect the phenomenon could be real. And they are, after all, the purpose of magick.
Here's a new one...This cult leader claims to be the reincarnation of Leonardo da Vinci!The Cult | International investigation into Serge Benhayon and Universal Medicine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkSQT...
Seven Simple Questions To Ask If You Think You Might Be In A Cult https://junkee.com/cult-zodiac-jo-tho...
Alien Gods, Jesus’ Spaceship, & Operation Prayer Power: Welcome to The Aetherius Society https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy9b-...
Well, good thing they fixed the world. Everything's OK! It's funny the comments under the video complain about the interviewer being snarky but I thought she did a great job. What she said was always literally respectful, but the subtext made it easy to laugh.
Origins of Jehovah's Witnesses https://www.watchtowerlies.com/origin...Jehovah's Witnesses :
An Adventist cult
The Watchtower Society assumes that its history started with Charles Taze Russell who studied the Bible and discovered numerous biblical truths such as the “prediction of 1914”. On the other hand, they voluntarily forget to mention that their actual history started long before, not with Russell, but with the Baptist preacher William Miller.
Allison Mack and the Story of NXIVM: Inside the Sex Cult That Turned Women Into Recruiters for Their ''Master'' https://www.eonline.com/ap/news/10753...When Smallville ended after 10 seasons in 2011, Allison Mack found herself a little adrift, having played journalist and town truth-seeker Chloe Sullivan for almost the entirety of her adult life.
Mack has since pleaded guilty to racketeering after being accused in 2018 along with Raniere of sex trafficking and other crimes related to what has been widely referred to as a "sex cult" that Raniere led under the shield of a lucrative, albeit dodgy, self-help company he operated out in the open for decades, backed by deep-pocketed believers and applauded by satisfied customers, even as reporters and authorities closed in.
The Bikram doc was interesting. I feel like Bikram was definitely a dog and most likely engaged in the behavior his victims accused him of, however I tend think that some of these people knew what they were doing by interacting with him and then were suddenly surprised by his actions-if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, well you know. The Bikram “cult” is interesting because people did actually gain lucrative studio contracts, health benefits, and weight loss(if that’s can be gained haha) from partaking in his nutty brand of yoga. That said I can see how he could be labeled a cult leader -he accepted no excuses from his followers, he was verbally abusive, he was maniacal in his methodologies and he made his followers feel weak without him. He also then began believing in his own bull-he believed women were attracted to him simply because he was Bikram. A lot can be said about his story and his ability to make the American Dream from nothing-but like all megalomaniacs, he fell in love with his own legend and pushed it too far. The other thing of note-like any other cult, there needs to be submissive behavior from an accepting party. I sort of look at him like Harvey Weinstein who was a microcosm if the Hollywood cult....do whatever I ask and you Will get ahead. I believe that’s even scarier than people blindly following someone over religious convictions or fear. Doing something willfully to get ahead, that may later make you feel unwholesome, is somehow scarier because the victim is an active participant in their own demise. It doesn’t make it right what the victimizer does, but people should never throw themselves in the snake pit and then act surprised when they are bitten.
B. wrote: "The other thing of note-like any other cult, there needs to be submissive behavior from an accepting party. I sort of look at him like Harvey Weinstein who was a microcosm if the Hollywood cult....do whatever I ask and you Will get ahead. I believe that’s even scarier than people blindly following someone over religious convictions or fear. Doing something willfully to get ahead, that may later make you feel unwholesome, is somehow scarier because the victim is an active participant in their own demise. It doesn’t make it right what the victimizer does, but people should never throw themselves in the snake pit and then act surprised when they are bitten...."Yeah, but the media (or maybe political movements) prefer to present those sorts of things in black and white.
For The Love Of God: The Man Who Thinks He's Jesus (Cult Documentary) | Real Stories https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXpLV...
God is proven scientificly but most of hard-core sciences are hidden but not all, do the work.One of the cults goal is to play God.
Qais wrote: "One of the cults goal is to play God.."So cults attempt to be the "middle man" between the individual and God, you mean?
Guru uses mind control to brainwash large crowd - RARE FOOTAGE ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gzS...Huge Crowd of half-naked cult members being brainwashed by cult leader Bhagwan Rajneesh.
This footage was included in the film Gods of the New Age
I just finished watching Waco on Netflix and all I can say is wow. I was 11 at the time this happened and didn’t understand what it really entailed. I always believed the media that Koresh was a child abuser and that’s why the government did what it did....that aside, the governments response was heavy handed to say the least as they were responsible as he was for the death of 25 children.Anyway, not what I came here to post...what I came today ya was that people thought he was crazy for calling himself a messiah(one who turns eyes to God), but his followers believed he was a messiah. What did this make me think? What if Jesus was himself the David Koresh of his generation? Certainly, everyone in his time, except select disciples, thought he was blasphemous and crazy for calling himself son of god. Over the years the catholic and Christian churches turned that idea into one of the biggest world religions on the planet...those that follow this “belief” system try to convert others much like Koresh and other cult leaders did. So my question is this-who decides who is the messiah? Will that person or group be called crazy? Will people blindly believe? This revelation makes me believe all religion is a cult-I can’t see it any other way now.
Underground Knowledge — A discussion group
Books mentioned in this topic
Letters to the Editor of Cthulhu Sex Magazine (other topics)Interview with Jesus Mary: Introduction to Jesus Mary Session 1 (other topics)
Interview with Jesus: Humility Session 1 (other topics)
Captive: A Mother's Crusade to Save Her Daughter from the Terrifying Cult Nxivm (other topics)
Cults in Our Midst: The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Mary Luck (other topics)A.J. Miller (other topics)
Catherine Oxenberg (other topics)
Nick Redfern (other topics)
Justin Bieber (other topics)
More...
