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How to avoid embarrassing errors in your manuscript
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I should also point out that I provide extensive comments for my authors because most indie authors are still learning the craft. I often have repeat clients, and I notice that with each subsequent book there are fewer and fewer errors because the author is learning from my notes. So my fee is often more than just for an edit, it's also for private lessons in writing. :-)
M.A. wrote: "G. wrote: " spending 45 to 60 minutes on 1,000 words seems a bit excessive, unless she is referring to what many editors call a “deep edit”—one that requires extensive rewriting and more aggressive . . ."Strangely enough, I find myself agreeing with you, M.A. I was not thinking in terms of the quality of the writing. You talk about indie authors. Hey, what about published authors? I picked up a book by Ludlum once that had so many errors in syntax and grammar in the first two pages that I threw it down in disgust and refused to read any more of it.
I notice frequent errors in postings by authors on Goodreads. For example, Maria should know better than to put apostrophes in plurals (except with lower case letters). It’s not “The”’s; it should be “The”s. I see things like 1980’s when it should be 1980s. Those authors who have 10 or 20 errors per page should look for something else to do; they are not good writers. Or perhaps they just need to sit down and peruse the Chicago Manual of Style for a few hours. They might learn something.
That said, you’ve got me beat, M.A., with just 1 or 2 errors per standard page. When I run my writing through my editor, she picks up about 2 or 3 errors per page (250 words) on average. Mostly misplaced, missing, or superfluous commas. I’m lucky to have found her, and even luckier that I can afford to pay for what she does—even though I know I’ll never have an ROI for it.
The satisfaction of putting out a decent product is reward enough for me.
I felt the same way about The Goldfinch. I still read it despite the errors, but they really bugged me. I was shocked to learn Michael Pietsch was her editor, though he may have restricted himself to developmental editing. In any case, Hachette seems to be skimping on their line editing.As for correcting others' posts, I don't think that's particularly kind. No one here is asking for an edit; they are merely offering their opinion on the topic. And it's so easy to make mistakes in a forum like this where you're typing quickly, or on a less-than-ideal device like an iPad or mobile phone.
As for good writing, I once had a wonderful conversation with a bookstore owner about the quality of a certain genre writer. The owner's response was that the author was a great storyteller, if not a great writer. That was a real eye-opener. It made me realize there are three kinds of writers:
1. Those who are great storytellers but not great writers (they get published, and often sell well despite their limitations).
2. Those who are great storytellers and great writers (they go down in history as literary greats).
3. Those who are great writers but lousy storytellers (they don't get published).
Just because someone makes a plethora of mechanical mistakes does not mean they cannot write a great story. Conversely, I have met writers who can turn a lovely, grammatically correct phrase like it was spun gold, but I couldn't get past the first page because there was no story there.
You can't sweat the small stuff. You will never catch all of the errors and besides the good stories only happen because things go wrong. You have to hope enough people pick up your book and like it enough to enjoy it in spite of everything. I have read two books that are on best seller lists but they drove me crazy. In one the protagonist goes thru the book insisting that one of the victims committed suicide but hid the weapon before he/she died. The weapon was a knife and the victim bled to death making it impossible for him/her to have hidden the weapon without leaving a blood trail. In the other the male lead was unbelievably sensitive to his female counterpart. I didn't find the relationship credible. I had a tough time plowing through that book. In my own first novel, the ending is full of unbelievable stuff that was necessary to make the story come out. A dozen friends in a book club read it and commented on it. One of them sent me an email with a full page of editorial mistakes that needed correction. A few of them had minor problems that I had to fix before going to publication. One read the book all the way through in one sitting and liked the heroine. My daughter, the Army Major, hates the heroine who is supposed to be an Army Captain. She wanted to discipline my heroine. My sense is that some people will like the book in spite of the flaws and others will have problems because there is some flaw that goes against their fundamental world view. I have no idea how many errors that an editor should have picked up are still in the book. I am not going to pay somebody to find out.On the development side, I wrote my second novel in about 2 months - one or two scenes per day. My wife read each scene when I was finished. Her secretarial training made her tell me about editorial mistakes - missing words, typos, etc. But she warmed up to the story as it developed and there were a couple of scenes that really blew her away. So I am looking forward to getting back to going back for self-edit/rewrite. Eventually, I will pay a professional editor to take the story and do his/her thing.
Maggie wrote: "I want to clarify that their are two kinds of editors, both necessary: content and line/copy editors. These are such different skills that editors usually specialize in only one. First hire a conte..."Maggie: I would whole heartedly agree with you, a really good editor must edit content as well as grammar, spelling, etc. You can have a wonderful edit, but the mss be disjointed and not readable by an agent and the chance for a wonderful book may go down the tubes for that simple reason...
My spell checker sometimes jumps to Australian. I just go in and change it back to American English.
M.A. wrote: “As for correcting others’ posts, I don’t think that’s particularly kind.”No, it’s not. It was not intended to be kind. Neither the world nor the publishing business is kind. Note that I was not talking about the occasional typo. We all make those. I was talking about consistent misuse of punctuation, as well as grammatical flubs. The writer I was referring to did the same thing twice in one sentence. That tells me that this is the way she does those plurals.
I’ve noticed similar flaws in the posts by some others. I won’t list any. That’s not the point. The real point is what you wrote about most indie writers making something like 10–20 errors per page. A person’s command of the language shows in their posts—typos aside—a surely as it will in their writing.
If you must do a post hastily and sloppily, then don’t do it at all.
The bottom line is, I see what you meant in that earlier post. Your posts are well-written and nicely organized. The same is true of some others who post here (Will, for example). This is far from true of some who post on these pages. Editing their writing could be a real chore.
G. wrote: "No, it’s not. It was not intended to be kind. Neither the world nor the publishing business is kind. Note tha..."G,
This is a forum, and in forums good manners and empathy go a long way. The Internet is already so full of hate; why add to it? How did remarking on a poster's errors add to the conversation? I could point out errors in your post, but what would that accomplish? There is also an error in your bio (tsk, tsk). We are all human. Try to remember that.
G. can certainly defend himself, however I have read many posts by authors that make them appear to be illiterate. Not a very good advertisement for their books. They should understand that everything they write reflects on them no matter where it appears in print.
Faith wrote: "G. can certainly defend himself, however I have read many posts by authors that make them appear to be illiterate. Not a very good advertisement for their books. They should understand that everyth..."Agreed. But it doesn't make any difference to point out specific errors, the purpose of which is only to intimidate and humiliate. When I read a post by someone claiming to be an author and it's clear they cannot write a coherent sentence, I never look at their books. The market has a way of weeding out the wannabes.
Remember, too, that an author might suffer from a disability like dyslexia or a motor neuron disease, or English may be a foreign language. One can hire an editor to fix manuscript errors that arise from one's disability or disadvantage, but no one hires an editor to edit a forum post.
M.A. wrote: "G. wrote: "No, it’s not. It was not intended to be kind. Neither the world nor the publishing business is kind. Note tha..."G,
This is a forum, and in forums good manners and empathy go a long w..."
You have a strange definition of “hate.” There was no hate in my comment, it was just that—a comment, an example. And I agree with what Faith wrote. That’s exactly what I was talking about. I think she said it better than I did.
And if you are referring to my use of “their” as a singular construction, be aware that this is a growing trend. It avoids the verbose—and stupid—“he or she” forced upon us by the so-called politically correct, who are neither political nor correct.
As for my bio, there were three errors—all missing commas. This is the sort of thing my editor is constantly jumping me for. LOL. I tend to write as a person would speak, and this type of comma does not usually show up as a hesitation in spoken words, hence I am apt to leave them out.
Don’t make a mountain out of a molehill.
M.A. wrote: “Faith wrote: "G. can certainly defend himself, however I have read many posts by authors that make them appear to be illiterate. Not a very good advertisement for their books. They should understand . . .”I was not talking about those whose native language is not English. One would obviously make allowances for that.
Whoa. I think I'm going to bow out here. I think it is completely inappropriate to sweat the grammar in a conversation, and a forum post is conversation.
There is a lot of good editing talent on Guru.com, but be sure to read their reviews and discuss your desires with him or her before awarding him or her the contract. I've had two types of editors. The kind who want to re-write my work. Then there are those who do great work for the first half of the novel, but check out during the last half.
I've gotten to the point where I stopped using other people to edit for me. I put the manuscript aside for a while and take a fresh look at it. I go through it and justify every piece of punctuation in the novel. It's a pain in the butt, but it works for me.
Alfred wrote: "There is a lot of good editing talent on Guru.com, but be sure to read their reviews and discuss your desires with him or her before awarding him or her the contract. I've had two types of editor..."
I have always used this approach but most of my work has been for oral presentations and much shorter than a novel. I feel that I want a third party reviewing the manuscript before it goes to press. Stephen King "On Writing" seems to suggest that he uses this approach.
Question: How many editors have you used and have you found any that you thought you might be able to synch up with?
G. wrote: "M.A. wrote: "G. wrote: " spending 45 to 60 minutes on 1,000 words seems a bit excessive, unless she is referring to what many editors call a “deep edit”—one that requires extensive rewriting and mo..."I was quoting someone who posted how upset they were with little errors like a missed "if" or "the" in their manuscripts. I didn't expect to have my response edited, lol. Why be so critical of messages? Don't you have better things to do with your time? I myself have read a ton of emails and messages from GR authors that were written entirely in lower case. Lighten up a little, this isn't for publication. We're just communicating ideas back and forth. All you're doing is making it a negative experience instead of a positive one.
Crone: A Scarlet St. James Novel.
Simone wrote: "M.A. wrote: "G. wrote: " spending 45 to 60 minutes on 1,000 words seems a bit excessive, unless she is referring to what many editors call a “deep edit”—one that requires extensive rewriting and mo..."Wow! Talk about a post riddled with errors! This one is hard to read and makes very little sense, especially the redundancy with "many, many ..." M.A. should know better as well. After all, isn't it M.A. who said we're judged on all of our writings? Tsk, tsk indeed!
I'm confused. Are you referring to my post? How is it riddled with errors? I think I'm finished with this forum. I thought it would be informative and fun.
This discussion thread has gradually devolved into a spitting match. The end result of a spitting match is always predictable - all of the active participants will end up covered in spit and absolutely nothing will be resolved.
Joe wrote: "Alfred wrote: "There is a lot of good editing talent on Guru.com, but be sure to read their reviews and discuss your desires with him or her before awarding him or her the contract. There isn't anyone I would want to endorse. As I've said, I started editing my own work. Ultimately, I got tired of paying people to do something that I could do better on my own.
Maria wrote: "M.A. should know better as well. After all, isn't it M.A. who said we're judged on all of our writings? Tsk, tsk indeed!..."Actually, no, it wasn't me. It's the way the replies have been edited. I'm the one asking for empathy and decorum; I've been shouted down. I think I, too, will bow out. I find it so disheartening that some people feel they cannot make their point without putting others down. What should have remained an enlightening discussion about editing has devolved, as one person put it, into a spitting match. I could do without the rain.
I will add that, while I understand, Maria, that you are upset by G rudely correcting your grammar, please direct your response to the guilty party, not to others on the forum, especially those of us who asked him to be more respectful of you.
Parker wrote: "Whoa. I think I'm going to bow out here. I think it is completely inappropriate to sweat the grammar in a conversation, and a forum post is conversation."Agreed. Alas, I'm afraid our request for good manners has been shouted down. Sometimes all it takes is one rotten apple to spoil the bunch.
M.A. wrote: "* Three spaced periods are used to create an ellipsis (. . .) in some instances but then the ellipsis symbol (…) is used elsewhere."One could legitimately blame the word processor for that. I use OpenOffice, and sometimes when I hit a pair of hyphens, it correctly deduces that I want an em-dash, and other times leaves it as two hyphens. Why, I have no idea.
Mike wrote: "You know, I have perfect spelling in Spanish. That's because the words are spelled just like they sound in Spanish. Spanish doesn't have silent letters, etc."Spanish doesn't have two countries speaking the language that were involved in a major disagreement around the time spelling was starting to be standardized, or import words from sixty other languages, either.
For me this is simple. My wife, who is a stickler on grammar and spelling (she regularly excoriates newspapers and their poor proof readers), proof reads my writing. She used to find a ton of errors but as I continue writing I find I am able to catch the errors myself before she sees them. Sometimes I think she could make a living just proofing documents!
Paul wrote: "For me this is simple. My wife, who is a stickler on grammar and spelling (she regularly excoriates newspapers and their poor proof readers), proof reads my writing. She used to find a ton of error..."An "in-house" talented! proofreader???
Cherish her!
Tell her how wonderful she is at least once a day.
Give her flowers for no reason at all.
Take out the trash without being reminded.
And any other little thing that would make her happy.
Just my USD .02 on the care and happiness of personal proofreaders.
Eric
*big teasing smile*
Eric wrote: "Paul wrote: "For me this is simple. My wife, who is a stickler on grammar and spelling (she regularly excoriates newspapers and their poor proof readers), proof reads my writing. She used to find a..."Eric: You're right. She's not just a talented proof reader but she also proofs content. More often than I care to admit she'll ask me, Is this really what you want to say? She's my wife so she kindly points out obvious garbage or inconsistencies this way instead of telling me I'm an idiot for writing such a passage. Oh well, as I write this happens less frequently.
Tips I give my writing students.1) Read aloud--backward--to avoid the auto-correct function in our brain. We will pick up spelling problems quickly.
2) Read aloud--forward--for meter. Recall that writing of this nature was invented by the Greeks to allow bards to recite the Homeric epics after Homer died. Thus, the written word (particularly in fiction, but, honestly, also non-fiction) should be somewhat lyrical. There should be a meter, a beat, to every sentence and paragraph. Also, "if it sounds weird, it probably is."
3) Read your work aloud to someone who really cares for you...in other words, someone who will look at you and go "Wha...?" I suggest buying them a coffee! That will give them the strength to also listen to your content.
4) Spell check is not your friend. OK...it will pick up gross errors. However (and this happened in my most recent)..."Her face was a bloody wreak." is not "Her face was a bloody wreck." See point #1 above. A slow read aloud should pick up a lot of vocabulary, spelling and structural errors (as in...'Why did I write it that way?')
Wendy wrote: "I use OpenOffice, and sometimes when I hit a pair of hyphens, it correctly deduces that I want an em-dash, and other times leaves it as two hyphens. Why, I have no idea..."OpenOffice was designed to mimic Word, and I have noticed that Word will only convert a double hyphen to an em dash if I hit the space key and then continue typing the rest of the sentence. But if I go back to add an em dash by keying in a double hyphen between existing text, Word will not change the double hyphen to a dash. This is a function of the "Auto-Format as You Type" option where one can override it by replacing text that was previously auto-formatted.
Word has many default auto-format options, but all can be turned off at the user's discretion, and other auto-format options can be inputted. So another possibility is that you sometimes combine documents (or bring in lines of text from elsewhere) that have different options set in them.
When you import text, you can choose how imported text is handled: to keep existing formatting (and therefore existing options), which is the default in Word, or to match destination formatting. If you have it set to keep existing formatting, when you cut and paste from another document where your double hyphen converts to an em dash, any extension of that document will do so as well, while any extension of the current document where you don't have that option set will not convert your hyphens (and vice versa).
By extension I mean this: if you bring in a new line or paragraph from another document (or even a few words) and then continue typing from it (including hitting the return key to start a new paragraph), the word processor treats that as an extension of the previous text and its options. Scroll down to a part of your original document and start typing again, and the processor treats it as an extension of the original document and its options.
I therefore find it always best to set my import options to match the existing document and reformat if necessary.
M.A. gives good advice here. What she is describing as “extension” is what is called inheritance in the trade. What this means is that when you type a hard return (Enter key) at the end of a paragraph, the new paragraph will inherit the formatting of the previous paragraph.You have to be careful when importing text from another file into a Word document, especially from another Word file. The copied text will often bring with it Style settings that may interfere with ones you have set up for your document. The safest way to do this is what is called “the nuclear option.” This ordinarily involves copying the text to a Notepad file (which removes all formatting) and then copying the Notepad file into your Word document.
There is, however, an easier way to do this. In the source file, highlight the text you want to import and either select Copy from the Edit menu, or just use Control-C (meaning, hold down the Control key and press the C key). Then go to your Word document and use Control-Alt-V (hold down the Control and Alt keys and press the V key). This will bring up a little menu. Select the “Unformatted text” option and click on OK. This will copy in the text you want without any formatting. You will have to manually restore any italics or boldface that you want to keep, but ordinary punctuation will come across as is (including real—curly—apostrophes and quotation marks).
With the nuclear option, your imported text will come through in whatever style is in effect at the cursor position when you do the import. If it’s your Body Style, then all the imported text will be in Body Style. If your Body Style includes a first-line indent (most do), then all the paragraphs you import will be indented. If some of the imported paragraphs should have no first-line indent, you will have to put the cursor in each of those paragraphs and click on your NoIndent Style to fix them. It’s a simple two-click operation.
You do use Styles in Word, right?
G. wrote: "M.A. gives good advice here. What she is describing as “extension” is what is called inheritance in the trade. What this means is that when you type a hard return (Enter key) at the end of a paragr..."Interesting, G. I've been using Word since Word 95, and have never run across the CTRL-ALT-V trick before.
However, at least with Word 2007-2010-2013, there's a simpler way. (I'm always in favor of simpler alternatives to anything which requires me to hold down three keys at once! *s*)
Once you've copied the text you want to move, go to the place in the receiving document where it's to be inserted, point the cursor, and right-click. A menu box appears with three folder icons under the bold heading of "Paste Options": left = retain source formatting, middle = merge formatting and right = copy text only.
As you move the cursor over the options your imported text will (or should) appear on the page, and you can see what's going to happen. Click the right folder and only text is transferred.
Et voila!
Just my USD .02.
Eric
Paul wrote: “My wife regularly excoriates newspapers and their poor proof readers.”I’m surprised reading the newspaper doesn’t give the poor woman a heart attack. They hyphenate a word across two pages that are separated by, say, seven pages. By the time you get to the continuation, you’ve forgotten what the first part of the word was. And they hyphenate one-syllable words. Give me a break!
Eric wrote: “However, at least with Word 2007-2010-2013, there’s a simpler way.”Thanks, Eric. I learned about the Ctrl-Alt-V trick only about one year ago. Your way seems a bit easier. I swiped it to include in one of my “Tips for Authors” blog entries on my website—with credit to you, of course. I credited you as “Eric, a Goodreads author.” Let me know if you would rather have me say it differently.
G. wrote: "Paul wrote: “My wife regularly excoriates newspapers and their poor proof readers.”I’m surprised reading the newspaper doesn’t give the poor woman a heart attack. They hyphenate a word across two..."
Oh our newspaper is worse that that. They often cut an article short right in the middle of a sentence. And yes I worry about her health sometimes. Purple doesn't become her.
I knew I said I wouldn't comment further but I invite anyone who wonders why there are typos in the news to get a job in the news. It's very low paid so they'll usually at least give you a try. Most people won't last the week...I read a couple years ago that the suicide rate for journalists is starting to approach that for doctors. At least doctors get paid for the stress of the constant backseat driving from people who think they can do it better. A DISPOSABLE product-- a news item that will be outdated fish wrap tomorrow, a forum post, a twitter conversation, a text-- cannot & should not be typo free.
Expecting a beautiful edit from a news item written as the events are unscrolling is not remotely reasonable. There are local fishwrappers that come out once a week, and maybe their editors still make sure there are no typos. But nobody's buying those newspapers, are they? The market has spoken, and it has said a few typos in a news story doesn't matter. What matters is immediacy.
Parker wrote: "I knew I said I wouldn't comment further but I invite anyone who wonders why there are typos in the news to get a job in the news. It's very low paid so they'll usually at least give you a try..."Another reason for news copy to be full of typos and grammatical errors is the more recent advent of electronic composition. Typographers (I'm not sure that's the correct name) in a news office must enter the copy at breakneck speed, and the system is not set up to allow them to go back and make any corrections. (This problem may now be passe, however, since most journalists and in-house typographers can do the work on their computers and review before submitting. But time is still their enemy, with the deadlines always being yesterday, so self-editing even among journalists with well honed writing skills is hampered.
M.A. wrote: "[This is a reprint of a blog post I just wrote. There is a PDF of a sample style guide linked to the blog and which I cannot attach here. If you would like the PDF, the link is here.]As both a wr..."
Thank you for this list of items to add to my growing notebook of things to check in my ms. I can't tell you how many times I've had to do a find and replace during my read-through to correct these errors. I will now keep a "style guide" in one of the 5 part sections. I appreciate the information.
Sally wrote: " But time is still their enemy, with the deadlines always being yesterday, so self-editing even among journalists with well honed writing skills is hampered. ."Exactly. Once you're trusted not to get the news site sued, the editor doesn't even read your piece much of the time. You write it, you have to SELF edit, & you have to post while people are still searching for the topic. The limitations of the human brain-- the fact that the same person who writes a story "knows" what it should say & thus is somewhat blind to minor typos-- means this process will ALWAYS result in typos.
What's important in editing news SHOULD BE completely different from what's important in editing fiction. We live in a world of "tell me now," and the clock is not turning back. People who need perfectly produced news items will have to give up on reading/watching the news while it's news. Come back five years from now and watch the documentary...
EVERYTHING is wrong while the news is live. Even with multiple eye witnesses, even with TRAINED witnesses like police officers, basic facts like the number of shooters is WRONG. What difference does grammar make?
I think the exception to this deadline problem is the feature journalist, whose assignment can be lengthy (he or she may be working on several stories at once, researching, interviewing, etc.), allowing time to develop a full story. This kind of material is not news in the immediate sense, but is usually designed to be timely to current affairs. Some of the work of these journalists really sparkles and is revelatory to readers, opening our eyes to the depth and consequences of any given issue. This is the kind of work that earns journalism awards for content as well as quality of writing.
Sally wrote: "I think the exception to this deadline problem is the feature journalist, whose assignment can be lengthy (he or she may be working on several stories at once, researching, interviewing, etc.), all..."True but there are almost no jobs and very few "feature" articles a month from a vanishingly small number of sources... the lack of jobs being a huge issue for journalists. Once a publisher has committed to a several months/multi-year project, sure, they'll edit that piece. But most news? Nah...
Paul wrote: “Oh our newspaper is worse that that. They often cut an article short right in the middle of a sentence. And yes I worry about her health sometimes. Purple doesn't become her.”My newspaper dos the same thing. I also find duplicated paragraphs. I will be thinking, Didn’t I just read this a few seconds ago?
Sally says it is because of the pressure to get things out. Perhaps, but I recall not very many years ago that errors like the ones we have discussed just didn’t happen, or at least, not nearly so often as they do nowadays. You would think that good software could eliminate gaffes like these.
Yet, my newspaper has won two Pulitzer prizes for investigative reporting. Those articles were better formatted than regular news stories. And that is what we are talking about here: formatting, not grammar or spelling. It is something that can and should be automated. That’s my two cents worth.
Paul wrote: "Oh our newspaper is worse that that. They often cut an article short right in the middle of a sentence.."Hate to break it to you, but that's the nature of the beast. That's why reporters are taught to put the biggest facts first, in case their story gets cut. Back in the days of plate presses and linotype, that was literal. You're spoiled by all this digital pre-press that gives most printers the luxury of making tiny adjustments to font size, leading, kerning and tracking that simply took too much time and resources for something as regular as a daily--or even weekly--paper. And in some cases, still does.
G. wrote: And that is what we are talking about here: formatting, not grammar or spelling. It is something that can and should be automated. That’s my two cents worth."Actually, it's because it's so automated that problems like repeated text are happening. The expectation that doing it digitally means less time is needed combined with "editors" (and I use the term loosely) that grew up cutting-and-pasting school essays together instead of actually writing them leads to a lack of manual checking. And while some grammer-checkers notice when two words repeat, I don't know of any that would recognize if an entire paragraph repeated.
I write my novels sort of 'stream of consciousness' and then a few days later edit those pages I wrote. It is astonishing the errors I find. Then I pay and editor to edit the work in its entirety.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Crone (other topics)Crone (other topics)
A couple of years ago I edited a self-published cookbook. So many, many errors and inconsistencies (t-spoon, teaspoon, tea spoon, lasagne lasagne). I don't think the author made much of an effort to clean it up. I got $500, and though I didn't keep track of the time, that couldn't have been minimum wage. Never again!