Week ending 11/29: Time Regained, to location 53222

[Jonathan]

I don't know Renato, with your reading powers the Bible shouldn't be a problem and it is definitely worth reading. I read it as literature. Here's a hint: you can skip bits; after all God wasn't as good a writer as Proust.

[Dave]

I have a favorite quote, but reserve the right to change it ;) My favorite is Mme. Verdurin in TR "“Come in at five o’clock to talk about the war." For my favorite scene it is hard to top the hat attack.

This whole line of discussion since Jonathan was concerned with the quote above is the type I really enjoy, especially when we are all online at the same time.

Concerning the Bible, my study of it is what lead to my ability to comprehend The Sound and the Fury an Absolom, Absolom, which then motivated me to read Proust. I had read and listened to the Bible as an Audiobook which is where I got that idea. For two years I completely immersed myself in the Bible, buying courses from the Great Courses Company about Ancient History, Judaism, Christian Theology and every course offered on the Bible. I got heavily into reading textbooks and commentaries that focused on many of the new criticism fields that are being used now to analyze the Bible such as Literary Criticism, Rhetorical Criticism, and Reader Response Criticism. Eventually I was invited by the church to teach Sunday School and Adult Bible Study. For the most part those who attended my classes had "studied the Bible their whole lives". Yet they were continually amazed at how much meaning I could show them in even the shortest story. My focus was on the narrative parts of the Bible. Studying poetry, prophets, Wisdom Literature, and Letters requires different analytical skills which I became aware of but never got to practice.

Just to clarify, I believe in the Bible as a book of faith but not in the literal interpretation of it.

[Dave]

I agree Jonathan, Renato is up to the task as long as he is not too squeamish. Although Proust could liven things up a a bit with some pagan festivals and animal sacrifices. Now that I think about it, Marcel and Albertine's story does have a passing similarity with David and Bathsheeba.

[Dave]

Oops , I forgot, Francoise chasing the chicken at Combray qualifies as an animal sacrifice!

[Renato]

I'm laughing out loud in here right now - in the middle of the day while I was supposed to be working - with "after all God wasn't as good a writer as Proust" and "Francoise chasing the chicken at Combray qualifies as an animal sacrifice!" !!!

[Dave]

And the Male Brothel has a definite sense of a Pagan Festival. So Proust offers more for your entertainment Franc.

Now that I've sorted that out, when ask my opinion of Proust I can say "Ah yes, Proust, I find him to be so...so...Biblical!

[Jonathan]

Oh, BTW & for the record my favourite quote from the whole of ISOLT (so far) is:

"Oh, my poor little hawthorns," I was assuring them through my sobs, "it isn't you who want me to be unhappy, to force me to leave you. You, you've never done me any harm. So I shall always love you." And, drying my eyes, I promised them that, when I grew up, I would never copy the foolish example of other men, but that even in Paris, on fine spring days, instead of paying calls and listening to silly talk, I would set off for the country to see the first hawthorn-trees in bloom.

I just love the idea of a sensitive child crying over having to leave some hawthorns! And the promise of the child to never forget them...brilliant! I can't imagine any child these days doing that.

[Renato]

I didn't remember that quote at all, but reading the Carter bio I found out a similar situation did actually happen!

[Dave]

Great quote Jonathan and very insightful. We now know that Proust was one of the pioneers in the field of talking to your plants to give them emotional support!

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Great quote Jonathan and very insightful. We now know that Proust was one of the pioneers in the field of talking to your plants to give them emotional support!"

Talking and crying.

[Dave]

Interesting to note that his talking and crying was no more effective on the behavior of the hawthorns than it was on the behavior of the women in his life (grandmother excepted).

[Renato]

LOL great observation, Dave!

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Interesting to note that his talking and crying was no more effective on the behavior of the hawthorns than it was on the behavior of the women in his life (grandmother excepted)."

Ha! Ha! I did notice throughout the book that the hawthorns were mentioned again and again, very often just as an aside - I'm sure it was when he was getting all emotional over Albertine, Gilberte etc. I guess these were other 'involuntary memory events' (or IMEs).

[Dave]

Yes, clearly the hawthorns are important and the quote you selected is a great one. There are a lot of memorable parts of the book but if asked to name a favorite I would choose Combray.

[Marcelita]

Renato wrote: "I didn't remember that quote at all, but reading the Carter bio I found out a similar situation did actually happen!"

Yes! I remember reading this for the first time....along with the enmeshed tale about Robert and the goat.

"Robert even made a little speech for her to overhear:
'My poor little goat, you’re not the one who tried to make me sad, to separate me from those I love.'
He then began to weep."
(From Carter's biography)

[Jonathan]

Marcelita wrote: "Yes! I remember reading this for the first time....along with the enmeshed tale about Robert and the goat...."

er...Marcelita, what is the tale about Robert and the goat?

[Marcelita]

Jonathan wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Yes! I remember reading this for the first time....along with the enmeshed tale about Robert and the goat...."

er...Marcelita, what is the tale about Robert and the goat?"

From Carter's biography:

"The early draft of what became the 'farewell to the hawthorns' in the Search recounted an incident involving Robert, forced by his parents to leave behind a pet goat. This incident most likely occurred in September 1878, when Marcel was seven, during a late summer vacation in Illiers or Auteuil. 66 On the day in question, Marcel and Robert were both angry with their parents for not having told them that their mother was leaving to visit a friend and was taking Robert with her. Marcel hated any separation from his mother and was hurt at being left behind.

"Robert, upset that he could no longer keep the little goat and his prized cart, took his revenge by hiding, in hopes that his mother would miss the train. Earlier in the day, a relative had taken him to be photographed, and Robert was still dressed as was deemed appropriate for a studio photograph of a very young boy. His mother had clad him in a dress with lace skirt, curled his hair, and tied it up with ribbons. Furious that he must leave his goat and toys, Robert had a tantrum, ripped off his clothes, pulled the ribbons from his hair, and yanked his curls in an attempt to straighten them. For good measure, he smashed his toys and then, to the consternation of his mother, defiantly sat down on the railway tracks. Robert even made a little speech for her to overhear: ..." Carter

Although I do not read The Search as an autobiography, I do enjoy seeing where Proust has taken experiences, cut them up, thrown them in the air, and reconfigured them into a jigsaw puzzle-novel.

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "er...Marcelita, what is the tale about Robert and the goat? "

I laughed out loud at this sentence!

[Jonathan]

Marcelita wrote: "From Carter's biography:

"The early draft of what became the 'farewell to the hawthorns' in the Search recounted an incident involving Robert, forced by his parents to leave behind a pet goat. ..."

Thanks Marcelita, that's great. I can still remember flying into a rage when I was a child. I remember my parents getting rid of loads of comics I had and being furious about it. To them it was just rubbish lying about but to me it was more important. I just love the hawthorns scene though as I think we can all remember doing something similar: declaring that we'll never forget or change, that adults are silly and don't understand.

I'm looking forward to reading the Carter bio - probably won't be until 2015 though.

[Dave]

What a neat story, and such interesting memories dredged up. Jonathan, I had a whole chest of drawers full of Disney comic books my mother threw out which infuriated me. At some other point I got pissed at my parents and packed some toys in a small square suitcase and marched through the living room where my parents were sitting and announced I was running away. My father said "Have a good trip." I stormed back to my room and slammed the door. Proust speaks for all of us in one way or another I suppose.

We hadn't heard from you in a few days Marcelita. Glad you are back.

[Renato]

Neat stories indeed. Don't resent your parents though. They probably were aware that it's best not to look at such important childhood items again as you'd risk altering the old impressions by adding new ones, thus tainting the original and far superior memories they held within!

[Dave]

No Renato, I don't resent my parents any more. But your well written Proustian sentiments probably have less to do with my forgiveness than the fact they have been dead for several decades and I've been in therapy for ten years! ;)

[Jonathan]

I shall never forgive them for killing my beautiful comics, they were my life, my everything. I'd pledged to never leave them, to be faithful to them....how I cried! :-)

[Ben]

I think the 'library scene' must rate as my favourite part of the whole ISOLT (thus far!). Whether the thoughts expressed were truly held by MP or were merely put into the mouth of the narrator, they contain some of the most profound thoughts on the relationship between time, memory and art that I have read anywhere. Not to mention page after page of quotable quotes. Sublime!