Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion
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Time Regained
Time Regained
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Week ending 11/22: Time Regained, to location 52285
*sigh* I just found the new stopping point for week-ending 11/22. Only, in my translation, it's "here is our master of tomorrow," said the butler to Francoise, showing her "Guillaume". She opened her eyes wide, then pointing at the feminine personage beside him in the picture, she added, "And there is the Guillaumesse." I searched for "lord and master to be" and "pointed to the feminine personage" and "Williamess" and obviously didn't find them. So, I'm accidentally ahead of the group.But, I simply can't stop now. I'm too involved. LOL!
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LOL, kidding! Enjoy the book and we'll discuss everyone's thoughts once we're all on the same page! :-)
Renato wrote: "Nice excuse, Sunny!LOL, kidding! Enjoy the book and we'll discuss everyone's thoughts once we're all on the same page! :-)"
:)
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Once again, our narrator was quite the voyeur! Not only he likes x-raying people while talking to them, he also enjoys doing it without them being aware of his presence!
I confess I was a bit shocked at Charlus's tastes though... but to each its own, right?
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"In this book in which there is not a single event which is not fictitious, in which there is not a single personage "a clef", where I have invented everything to suit the requirements of my presentation, I must, in homage to my country, mention as personages who did exist in real life, these millionaire relations of Françoise who left their retirement to help their bereaved niece."
And there he goes again tangling all my thoughts! I'm glad we're close to the finish line so we'll finally see the big white rabbit!
Renato wrote: "I believe this section is among the ones I read faster! So much going on, it was fun and enticing.Once again, our narrator was quite the voyeur! Not only he likes x-raying people while talking to..."
Yes, this part is really fun. I commented extensively on this week's reading in my initial comments filed in the last week folder.
I would encourage everyone to pay close attention to the letter quoted that the Narrator receives from Charlus. And pay particular attention to the paragraph before that letter which describes the circumstance and timeframe in which the letter is written.
Renato wrote: ""In this book in which there is not a single event which is not fictitious, in which there is not a single personage "a clef", where I have invented everything to suit the requirements of my pre..."
I'm still uncertain what this passage means. On the one hand it seems like one of many times that the author insists his characters are fiction. I don't understand who the real life exception is, and I don't understand why an "homage to my country" compels disclosure. Perhaps Penguin notes, Marcelita, or Carter's bio can help us.
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"But he had at that time been so seriously ill that he had made his will, then he had partially recovered before falling into the condition in which we shall see him later on the day of an afternoon party at the Princesse de Guermantes'"
The afternoon party is the last chapter of the book... I'm so curious! And the narrator is telling us of a letter he received some ten years after that event...
I believe you already suspect this Renato, but Proust does not give answers on the last page (or in the last section). He only hands out blank paper and invites the reader to pose questions and answer them as best they can.
Dave wrote: "Renato wrote: ""In this book in which there is not a single event which is not fictitious, in which there is not a single personage "a clef", where I have invented everything to suit the require..."
See Carter on the "ideal" French character:
Larivière, Marcelle (?-1920), Niece Of Céleste Albaret's Husband Odilon
http://www.proust-ink.com/proustaz/l....
"In this book in which there is not a single incident which is not fictitious, not a single character who is a real person in disguise, in which everything has been invented by me in accordance with the requirements of my theme, I owe it to the credit of my country to say that only the millionaire cousins of Françoise who came out of retirement to help their niece when she was left without support, only they are real people who exist. And persuaded as I am that I shall not offend their modesty, for the reason that they will never read this book, it is both with childish pleasure and with a profound emotion that, being unable to record the names of so many others who undoubtedly acted in the same way, to all of whom France owes her survival, I transcribe here the real name of this family: they are called—and what name could be more French?—Larivière." MP
There were also other "real people."
From Carter's Proust-Ink website:
"In addition to a number of historical figures, who are mentioned or quoted, one finds some of Proust's acquaintances, including Sarah Bernhardt, Henri Bergson, Count Bertrand de Fénelon, and Anna de Noailles, to name only a few. The one person to whom he does pay an extended homage is his housekeeper Céleste Albaret. His parody of her speech is a fine example of Proustian layering in that she also mocks his—and the Narrator's—gestures, habits, and fussiness about food." Carter
See Sodom and Gomorrah 4: 331-37, 448, 716; The Captive 5: 12-13, 176.
http://www.proust-ink.com/proustaz/l....
Example of Proust's dear friend, Bertrand de Fénelon, who died in WWI.
"...she would have been afraid of offending the gentle bard of Télémaque by calling him bluntly Fénelon—as I myself did with every reason to know, having as my dearest friend the best, bravest, most intelligent of men, whom no one who knew him could forget: Bertrand de Fénelon—and invariably said 'Fénélon,' feeling that the acute accent added a certain softness." MP
Carter on Proust's friendship with Fénélon (start page 304...remember the hat scene with the Baron?).
http://books.google.com/books?id=NxTa...
): http://books.google.com/books?id=NxTa...
Thanks Marcelita, you never fail to be so helpful!
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Yes, I imagined so. I'm curious to see in which condition Charlus was in that party...
Dave, you mentioned previously that you feel the "end" of the book is about a couple of dozens pages. Are we already reading it?
The whole last section (going to and attending the Princesses Reception) is the "ending" Renato. I read somewhere it was the last 200 pages.
I would also add Renato that near the end of the book a significant new character is introduced. Shortly after that the Narrator shifts to interior monologue for the remainder of the book. I rushed through that monologue in my haste to finish. I now realize that by doing so I sold Proust and myself short. That final monologue is very insightful. It may not be all that clear on the first read, but if you reread (even if only partially) and consider some of the references it becomes very helpful in understanding the book. At least that is my experience.
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Once again, our narrator was quite the voyeur! Not only he likes x-raying people w..."
When reading this originally I was a bit unsure whether the letter was written to Marcel as the paragraph before it just says that the letter was left for him and the letter itself was only addressed to 'My dear friend'.
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"In this book in which there is not a single event which is not fictitious, in which there is not a single personage "a clef", where I have invented everything to sui..."
Thanks for all the links Marcelita. I'm going to enjoy perusing all the info you've added for us when I've finished ISOLT.
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Charlus's sexual tastes and Jupien's hotel certainly take centre stage in this week's reading. It must have been very daring to write about a male brothel at the time, but especially where the 'workers' are all soldiers of WWI.
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Thanks, Dave. I'll try to read that part patiently! Interesting that he'll introduce a new character so close to the end...
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BTW if a priest goes to a brothel of any sort then wouldn't he go incognito?
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Oh wow... 92 years ago!
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Yes, good point! Very daring.
I have to say I found Charlus's tastes very funny, wanting them to be mean, evil men that would murder people for no reason so he'd feel more pleasure in being spanked.. LOL omg at that!
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LOL that was a good one as well!
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The whole scene where the narrator was going home during the bombing kind of made my heart race a bit. I figured nothing bad would happen to him, but when it was mentioned that Saint-Loup was looking for his lost object, I thought the narrator would casually drop that he had been killed.
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Yes, he just wants the real thing; real murderers and cutthroats...and they have to look similar to Morel.
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At the end of this part is this great quote:
The horror that grand people have for the snobs who strive so hard to make their acquaintance is also felt by masculine men for inverts, and by women for every man who is too much in love with them.
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I really enjoy when he does that. I remember back in Vol. 5 he went from playing music in the piano, to talking about music, then artists, and then Morel.
Hmmm, go off to a doctor's appointment and miss out on some good discussion. Damned that Dr Cottard! He is too slow and too old! And I'm still picking leeches out of my hair!
Jonathan wrote: "I notice on the Wikipedia page that Proust died on 18th November 1922."Not sure what you had in mind mentioning the date of Proust's death Jonathan, but I know that I was focused on his death for the longest time thinking that his death somehow defines the length of the story.
A very helpful question I eventually came to start trying to answer is: from what point in time (approximately) is the Narrator telling the story?
Jonathan wrote: "For me, the funniest part of this week's reading was when Marcel bumps into a priest in the brothel and says: 'It was that very rare thing, almost unheard of in France, a rotten priest.' - I'm assu..."Now Jonathan, lets be charitable, the priest was there to hear confession from the sinners. And even Proust would be astonished to hear that 100 years later the priest might be there to marry the solders!
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Not sure what you had in mind mentioning the date of Proust's death Jonathan, but I know that I was focused..."
I only meant that it was 92 years ago today.
What do you mean that Proust's death defined the length of the story? Do you mean that he would have continued adding bits if he'd lived? I thought he had an original plan and apart from the Albertine material that he inserted he'd more or less kept to it.
I'm hoping to find out more about this side when I start my post-ISOLT reading. :-)
Jonathan wrote: "Renato wrote: "I have to say I found Charlus's tastes very funny, wanting them to be mean, evil men that would murder people for no reason so he'd feel more pleasure in being spanked.. LOL omg at t..."As you will see when you get to my original comments in the last week, I had a unique interpretation of the brothel section. But although I eventually realized I was way out in left field, I left it since it still makes sense to me.
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He! He!
When I was reading it I originally got confused and thought I was reading something by Zola...what with all the squalid sexual stuff and the priest-bashing it was an easy mistake to make!
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I haven't read any of your notes on the last week yet. What message numbers are your brothel notes? Are there any major spoilers? If not, then I may read them.
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I've asked myself that from time to time... I wondered that if it was the narrator on his dying bed reminiscing on how his life was (or could have been...)
Does this get an answer/get resolved in the text or is it just something we'll wonder and speculate forever? :-)
Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "I notice on the Wikipedia page that Proust died on 18th November 1922."Not sure what you had in mind mentioning the date of Proust's death Jonathan, but I know that ..."
I live in my own shell, I didn't know today's date!
What I meant was I kept trying to fit the events in the book to the years of Proust's life. Of course that does not work.
You are right, he had a plan. The end was written at the beginning. Albertine and WWI were added.
As for whether he would have kept on adding, my guess is the publication of each volume narrowed the scope of what he could change.
Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "As you will see when you get to my original comments in the last week, I had a unique interpretation of the brothel section. But although I eventually realized I was way out in left fi..."My Brothel comment is message 4. The previous three messages do not contain spoilers but message five does contain spoilers.
Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "A very helpful question I eventually came to start trying to answer is: from what point in time (approximately) is the Narrator telling the story?"I've asked myself that from time to..."
Proust does not answer the question Renato. We are in White Rabbit country now. This is one aspect that separates ISOLT from a summer beach read. What I have started calling "the point of narration" is an opinion each reader must decide and make use of when rereading. It is not that hard, especially when you read to the end. Throughout the book Proust gives implicit and explicit clues about the answer and there are a number of these clues before the end of the book.
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Interesting comments Dave. I'm still not sure if it was a good idea to include the 'war stuff'; it seems a bit out of step with the rest of the novel, especially when he's skipping over most of the period by being in the sanatorium. And it looks like the last section takes place after the war anyway - presumably that will be the ending that he originally wrote before the war.
Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "My Brothel comment is message 4. The previous three messages do not contain spoilers but message five does contain spoilers. "Interesting comments Dave. I'm still not sure if it was ..."
I think he struck a good balance between acknowledging and using the war for his story without letting the war take over the story. I read somewhere that some said he "gave into Nationalism" about the war. I don't see that at all. Some of the funniest scenes are in the war and he is extremely sarcastic about so many aspects of society in the war. If he had published after the war such an obiously contemporary story without referencing the war talking about homosexuality would have been then least of his problems.
Oh, and I see the sanatorium as a useful narrative device to get out of covering the war years in too much detail.
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Interesting comments Dave. I'm still no..."
Well, it's a decision he had to make and I can't say whether it was right or wrong. I think if I were in his position I would have ended the novel before the war but then I don't know if that would have upset some of his subsequent chronology.
Jonathan wrote: "And it looks like the last section takes place after the war anyway - presumably that will be the ending that he originally wrote before the war." As far as I know, the ending is as he originally wrote it, perhaps with the addition or subtraction of a character or two, nobody important that I remember. References to time become relative and I cannot remember any historical clues like we have seen in the past.
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I agree. It does feel like he's trying to skip over the war period; in which case why not end it before the war?
Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Oh, and I see the sanatorium as a useful narrative device to get out of covering the war years in too much detail."I agree. It does feel like he's trying to skip over the war period;..."
My guess would be the characters are not yet old enough. A major theme is change over time and he "planned" for a certain number of years to make his point. I've never seen this discussed though.
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Are you aware of the two 'Proust's Additions' books by Alison Winton?
I think one of them is available from my library's county store so I may check it out. They may be a bit too technical though.
Renato wrote: " I wondered that if it was the narrator on his dying bed reminiscing on how his life was (or could have been...)"Your answer is what to me seems like the "circumstance of narration" Renato. What I'm trying to suggest is a calendar year or group of years the text indicates the Narrator is telling the story from. This can never be more than an approximation and you can change your mind as you come across new information. "I don't know right now but I'm looking for clues" is a fine answer too. I would say the best results are those you decide on your own based on what you read. To me it is an important "stake in the ground" from which each reader must anchor their understanding of the story. We can discuss why it is important after we finish.
I've finished my second review where I discuss my rereading experiences. I'll post it after we finish the book. That may help and I'll answer question. But this White Rabbit stuff is not intuitive and each explanation I read merely reflects the reader's experience reading the story.
As we all know now, Proust is a very uncompromising writer. He was a genius, the rest of us are condemned to play catch up ball trying to figure out his book. He has the highest expectations for his readers. Sentences too long? Suck it up and soldier on! Thirty pages about a man tossing and turning seems excessive? Suck it up and soldier on? Book waaay too long? Suck it up and soldier on. As far as I know he never spoke or wrote anything about what we are calling the White Rabbit. He expects us to figure it out on our own. He's comfortably resting in his cool Pere Lachaise Tomb. The rest of us just have to soldier on.
Jonathan wrote: "I'm quite interested in the 'nuts & bolts' of how he wrote ISOLT and how it evolved over the period that he was writing it. That's why I'm looking forward to reading the Carter bio next year. I'm n..."I had not seen those books but I doubt I will read them. I'm very much into interpretation of the text as published and have almost no interest in the "nuts and bolts" as you say. Having said that, I'll say I have cheated a bit and looked at Carter's bio specifically to see if info on nuts and bolts would help my understanding. I gave up in frustration. Books that convey such info need to learn the value of tables and graphs. Page after narrative page of this type of prepublication material was sent to or from the publisher on this date tells me nothing. The volume numbers don't correspond to any of my publications, no indication of specific textual material being edited. Its like the adage you don't want to watch sausage being made. But lots of folks find that fascinating.
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Ops, sorry, misunderstood your question then! So to know approximately the year he's narrating the story is important? I confess that's something I wouldn't normally pay attention to - unless it'd help me figure out his age.
Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014
Books mentioned in this topic
Proust's Additions: The Making of 'A la recherche du temps perdu' (other topics)Proust's Additions: The Making of 'A la recherche du temps perdu' (other topics)
Paris at the End of the World: How the City of Lights Soared in Its Darkest Hour, 1914-1918 (other topics)
Stop at "“There’s our lord and master to be,” said the butler to Françoise, showing her “William.” She goggled, then pointed to the feminine personage who stood by his side and said: “And there’s the Williamess!”"