Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion
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Time Regained
Time Regained
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Week ending 11/08: Time Regained, to location 50412
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Did they give any explanation of the difference Jonathan? Wish I had the Penguin edition for TR, the notes are sure to be interesting.
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I read the first few pages. For some reason I found the writing a bit more complicated than it has been in the previous volumes. Did you feel this at all, guys?
I can't say I noticed that Renato, but its been several months since I read this volume. You may be more sensitive than I to such changes.
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No, there's no mention in the Penguin book as to why this was done.
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Last night I reached an interesting point where he was mentioning that he never payed attention to what people actually said, that he was always analyzing them and making psychological observations... but I was too sleepy and had to stop. I'll re-read that bit tonight and continue...
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"Then the personage remarked and listened, but only at a certain depth and in such a manner that observation did not profit."
I did not see the guests because when I thought I was observing them I was radiographing them. From that it resulted that in collating all the observations I had been able to make about the guests in the course of a dinner, the design of the lines traced by me would form a unity of psychological laws in which the interest pertaining to the discourse of a particular guest occupied no place whatever."
I remember we discussed his dinner parties scenes and the narrator's interactions in them in earlier volumes, I think Vol. 3 specifically. It's nice to see him "explaining" why there was so much about the guests but not really their words... I'm interested to see where this will lead!
There is just too much in this book! lol I didn't recognize the passage you cited Renato so I copied a phrase from your quote to search the text. Turns out I highlighted the same passage! But then I guess I highlight 30-40% of the text in one color or another.It is an interesting passage.
Which brings me to "what the hell is radiographing"? Turns out its XRays! Marcel, the dinner guest with the Xray eyes! Make a great scifi flick.
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And it's a very accurate description of the way he analyzes his characters...
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Dave wrote: "Which brings me to "what the hell is radiographing"? Turns out its XRays! Marcel, the dinner guest with the Xray eyes! Make a great scifi flick."Proust tends to wait 1,000 or 2,000 pages to return to a point:
From "Swann's Way:"
And so, when Françoise was going to their house, some miles from Combray, Mamma would say to her with a smile:
“Tell me, Françoise, if Julien has had to go away, and you have Marguerite to yourself all day, you’ll be very sorry, but you will make the best of it, won’t you?”
And Françoise answered, laughing "Madame knows everything; Madame is worse than the X-rays” (she pronounced the “x” with an affectation of difficulty and a self-mocking smile that someone so ignorant should employ this learned term) “that they brought here for Mme Octave, and which can see what’s in your heart”—and she went off, overwhelmed that anyone should be caring about her, perhaps anxious that we should not see her in tears:
Mamma was the first person who had given her the heart-warming feeling that her peasant existence, with its simple joys and sorrows, might be an object of interest, might be a source of grief or pleasure to someone other than herself. MP
I am continually amazed at how aware of technological progress he was. Xrays were only discovered in 1895.
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Renato said "was he being ironic and I missed the mark? " I think you got it right on both counts Renato -it was ironic but he's calling attention to his powers of (Xray) observation by denying them so strongly ( I always thinks of Hamlet's comment about his mother - me thinks the lady doth protest too much).
Renato wrote : "It's interesting to note how Goncourt's descriptions are different from those ones we've read before... I guess he's really mocking the power of observation here" From what I've read in the after read stuff, the spoof of the Goncourt's Journal is seen as brilliant. He spends pages afterward discussing it. Basically what he sees versus what to Gongourts see is a replays of his argument in Contra Saint Beuve. They see the superficial while he sees the essential.
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Renato wrote: "Yes, that's what I took from it. I thought it was really brilliant. I was actually bored reading that section until I realized what was going on and his intentions. "So much to uncover!"
And it is endlessly exhilarating...to discover another layer or manuscript.
Not unlike the discovery of Laure Hillerin's. When I have more information, maybe next week, I will post it on the "Time Again" thread.
In the section where he is discussing the Verdurin's extremely luxurious salons (pages 61/62 in Modern Library Classics ed.) Proust says that the Verdurin's luxury and wealth went on increasing "at a time when other very rich people were economizing, because part of their income was frozen." Curious why it was that a part of the Verdurin's wasn't also frozen. Some outside source may comment on this but I would not know which.Also, I really enjoyed Proust's descriptions of Paris during the hours after 9:30 when the lights were all suddenly turned out. Some lovely and poignant passages. Also his discussion of St. Loup's courage and the true nobility of his character as it had saddened me to hear some of his less noble actions such as his marital betrayals of Gilberte, etc.
MMR wrote: "Curious why it was that a part of the Verdurin's wasn't also frozen. " Good eye for detail MMR. Having already finished the book I know that your question will be answered in the text at some point but I don't remember when. I find this so typical, Just a hint at something which might easily be overlooked, but if you notice, it is followed up very casually later. Its like panning for gold. I agree with you about the descriptions of wartime Paris.
Saint Loup becomes such a complex character. I have a couple of observations I caught on rereading but I'll wait until the end of the week.
I got a real laugh out of how M. Guermantes characterized the telegrams that Saint Loup sent to Gilberte "Cannot come. Lies follow."
A couple of small details that I didn't notice the first time: Saint Loup used Cocaine "excessively" at Tansonville (next to last page this week)."Although Saint Loup and I did not attend the Lycee and Sorbonne together...) - An example of how Proust slips significant details in so casually. I have wondered how Marcel got educated since there is so little reference to school. So there are years of Lycee and at the Sorbonne that are only casually mentioned here.
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"Although Saint Loup and I did not attend the Lyc..."
I know, I was amazed with this little bit of info about the excessive use of cocaine. I wonder if it was actually illegal at the time...after all it was used in Coca-Cola originally.
I just checked online and found that it was made illegal in the U.S. in 1922.
Interesting. I wondered how much Cocaine was "normal" usage.
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Good point. I was struck by Marcel's ability to just "let it go" when he go no answer.
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I loved this little section as well, MMR. It reminded me of a similar passage in The Guermantes Way when Marcel visited St-Loup in Doncières. He goes for a winter's nighttime walk around the nearly deserted town, looking up at the 'amphibious' inhabitants of the houses.
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He keeps claiming that he doesn't think about Albertine but then he's obviously thinking of her when he asks Gilberte about her. Also, in the section describing his walk through wartime Paris he says:
Ah! if Albertine had been alive, how delightful it would have been, on the evenings when I had dined out, to arrange to meet her out of doors, under the arcades!He then says 'But alas, I was alone...'
This was my favourite part of this week's reading.
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I was curious as to why Proust mentions Octave as 'I'm a wash-out'?
And who is Juliette? Marcel says: 'I saw a lot of Andrée at this time. We did not know what to say to each other, and once there came into my mind that name, Juliette, which had risen from the depths of Albertine's memory like a mysterious flower.' Was she one of the band of girls?
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I usually avoid reading introductions to books before I've finished them as they often contain spoilers but I've skimmed through the introduction to the Penguin version trying to avoid the bits where he comments on the narrative and concentrate on the parts about the different editions.
In this introduction Ian Patterson mentions that the first edition was put together by Robert Proust and Jean Paulhan in 1927 but he says that it was 'not entirely an accurate presentation of what Proust had written.' Clarac and Ferré published a revised text in 1954 in which they moved back the start point of the book by seven pages - n.b. this explains the difference between the Penguin & MKE versions. He explains that the 1988 Pléiade version restored the original start point as well as many corrections, insertions etc.
The English translation history is even more confusing. Moncrieff died before he could translate it and so Sydney Schiff translated it. In the U.S. it was translated by Frederick A Blossom. In 1970 Andreas Mayor translated it based on the 1954 Pléiade edition which was updated by Kilmartin and then Enright in 1992 - this is my Vintage version. Patterson also mentions that Mayor 'also did quite a lot of unacknowledged editing of his own, transposing the order of sentences or omitting words or phrases, occasionally sentences. Enright did not correct all these.'
Oh dear! I'm caught in the dilemma again: MKE or Penguin? I'm tempted to jump back to Penguin for this last volume....
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Goodness it does sound confusing. When I was listening to the Audio I got exasperated when I learned that Montcrieff had not translated TR. I guess because of copy-write issues, the reader-Narrator and another gentleman had done a private translation. So what they were reading was not available to me. So I was brave and read the last volume without Audio. Well, by then I was used to Proust's style so it was not that difficult.I've mentioned before that in my reading I don't really find myself aware of translations. I've read Moncrieff, then parts in Penguin and now in MKE mostly. I'm just not sensitive enough to discern differences.
Meanwhile, in my continuing obsession - I bought a 3 volume set from Abe's books translated by M & K in 1981. My God, the three volumes weigh in at 8.4lbs! Each volume is as thick as an unabridged dictionary. I'm a wus now and want my books to weigh what my iPad weighs. I'd have to set these volumes on the kitchen table to read them. But the do have a nice indexed synopses at the end of each volume.
Those Prinet paintings are nice. I never heard of him either,
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Phew! Heavy maaan! I first became aware of Proust by seeing these ****ing huge books at my local library - they were the old 3-volume Penguin version. I was intrigued, but they used to scare the crap out of me!
That BBC4 Proust program Marcelita recommended talks some about who reads Proust today and are more people reading now. I enjoyed it and they thoughtfully avoid spoilers.
Oh, and I did an electronic search of The MKE whole book and Penguin Vol 2 and came up empty on Juliette. I also thought she was a member of the little band.
@Jonathan: "A young man with regular features, carrying a bag of golf-clubs, sauntered up to us. ... In a frigid, impassive tone, which he evidently regarded as an indication of the highest distinction, he bade Albertine good day.
'Been playing golf, Octave?' she asked. 'How did it go? Were you in form?'
'Oh, it’s too sickening; I’m a wash-out,' he replied.
'Was Andrée playing?'
'Yes, she went round in seventy-seven.'
'Why, that’s a record!'
... He was the son of an immensely rich manufacture..."MP
Regarding 'Juliette,' this is the only time she is mentioned.
Another piece of evidence...this volume suffers from the early death.
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MMR. wrote: "In the section where he is discussing the Verdurin's extremely luxurious salons (pages 61/62 in Modern Library Classics ed.) Proust says that the Verdurin's luxury and wealth went on increasing "at..."MMR, I wanted to follow up on the issue of why the Verdurin's income was not reduced. I thought the answer was ahead in the text but I'm switched if I can find it. The key is that M. Verdurin is an industrialist. This is only mentioned once in the text that I know of and after searching the etext for logical words I am unable to find it. Patrick Alexander tweeted this a couple of years ago in his continuing project to tweet the whole book, so I guess it is somewhere behind us. Anyway the Aristocracy's wealth was mostly in land and perhaps some conservative investments like bonds. Most of the able bodied farmworkers got conscripted so farming income was reduced. Income from bonds (especially govt bonds) may have been disrupted as governments made promises to pay after the war as they tried to save costs to pay the huge costs of the war. Proust himself (childlike in his ability to manage his finances) lost a significant portion of his income during the war because bank transactions between Germany and France were suspended in the weeks leading to the war. Proust had a substantial amount of money in a German Bank that was frozen for the duration of the war, denying him the interest income of the balance. Meanwhile the income of industrialist like Verdurin soared during the war and they got immensely wealthy from war profits.
I'm not sure where I'm at in the reading of Time Regained. I've not had much luck finding the quoted stopping points, so I'm hesitant to write my comments or even read too far ahead with your comments for fear of spoilers. But, I wanted to say that I'm finding it tremendously interesting how MUCH people change over the years. What was in-style is not completely out of style. Whose company was once highly sought after is now a virtual outcast. The opinions that were so strongly argued are now strongly argued against. Only, the narrator doesn't seem changed as much as everyone around him. More experienced, maybe, but opinions and behavior haven't changed much.
Excellent points Sunny, especially about the Narrator.
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Renato wrote: "That's from Volume 2, Marcelita?"Yes, good memory Renato!
Stop at paragraph beginning "“Are we in for a long war?” I said to Saint-Loup. “No, I believe it will be very short,” he replied."