Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion
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The Captive / The Fugitive
The Captive & The Fugitive
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Week ending 10/04: The Captive, to page 462 / location 444610
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Jonathan wrote: "Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "I thought Albertine's line about lying was interesting, and true - she lies out of love, whereas the narrator lies to gain control and sees Albertine's lying as disobe..."I'm certainly with you there Jonathan. As you will see in my comments at the end of the volume, I am completely in Albertine's corner at this point. But later I realized it was because I knew all the dirty laundry in the Narrator's mind. I let myself be carried away by emotion, he was a fiend and she was a damsel in distress.
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That's certainly intriguing...
I share your frustration Renato, she is like a big fluffy cloud, No matter what aspect you look at, if you get close, there is nothing there.It was this aspect of this volume and the next that I found so frustrating.
Someone famous (perhaps Gide) said that Proust offered the most pessimistic view of human relationships of any author he knew.
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The first 75% of Volume 6 was a challenge for me. I just couldn't see the point of so much I read there.
But my reaction was to read longer (listening at the narration at the same speed but for longer periods of time) to get through it.
Are we still thinking about what the narrator is not doing folks? I didn't know the answer either of course - I didn't even know the question!
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That's what I mean but your second statement also shows the perils of thinking too much about this before you finish.
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I'll be finishing this volume in the next few days as the weekend will be busy. Can't wait to read your full thoughts about Vol. 5! :-)
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I'll be finishing this volume in the next few days as the weekend will be busy. Can't wait to read your full thoughts about Vol. ..."
I'm also going to read the rest over the next few days as it's more convenient.
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Dave wrote: "Renato wrote: "How old is the narrator supposed to be in this Volume?"Gonna get mysterious again on you Renato, answering your question is a major spoiler."
Great question... excellent answer! LOL!
It really is nice to have you back making frequent comments Sunny!
Dave wrote: "It really is nice to have you back making frequent comments Sunny!"Awwww. Thanks, Dave!
Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "Gonna get mysterious again on you Renato, answering your question is a major spoiler."That's certainly intriguing..."
I don't see how speculating on the age of the narrator could be a "major spoiler", considering that Proust was less of a stickler for dates and chronological details. However, if we identify the narrator with Marcel himself, the latter being born in 1879, he would be about 22 at the time he features himself in "The Captive", the novel being situated in 1901 approximately.
See chronology in French at:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronolo...
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And he might very well have been, considering that he was no youngster when he wrote La recherche. The character of the narrator himself might have been that of a young man, but seen through the eyes of more mature self.
Andree, I agree that to focus chronology is not all that useful, but there is some use. Proust was born July 10, 1871. I believe the "hero" of the book is perhaps 10 years younger than that based on events in Swann Way. I've seen several "chronologies" of the novel that I don't agree with that place events too early based on historical events and people that Proust includes in the book (such as seeing airplanes before their first flight). There is a very specific political event and person mentioned in The Captive that dates that volume in the Winter/Spring 1909 and the long day in that Volume most likely in February 1909. However, whatever the general dating in the book, I still maintain a full discussion of how old the narrator is is a major spoiler.
Most chronologies are pure conjecture and, considering, that Proust himself didn't seem too concerned with it, "killing" some of his characters and ressuscitating them afterwards, I don't think that we should either.I think it all matters very little. If Albertine is Agostinelli's alter ego, their affair obviously took place later (1907-08), which would be coherent with the narrator being thirtyish.
But I still don't get how speculating on the age of the narrator can be a spoiler.
As to the narrator's age in The Fugitive, I was wondering that also as I read the passage in which he was so in a fever of anticipation about going to visit Mme de Guermante that his mother intervened and persuaded his father to "allow me to remain in Paris." I can see a father possibly having some say over an 18 to 20 or so aged young man, but having that much say over an man of 30 would be ludicrous even in that era don't you think?Modern Library edition on page 764
I certainly agree with you on that MMR. He certainly doesn't seem 30 in his interaction with his parents here or elsewhere (like Venice). But to me he is not a "normal" man. Sickly, emotionally crippled, etc.As I've read I've taken to highlighting indicators of time passage, season etc to "keep tracking of passing years." In addition to sometimes referring to specific days of week, months and seasons, Proust sometimes mention specific historic events and persons (often government Ministers) involved in historically accurate crises. So my little informal time line really just tracks passage of time. Sometimes time periods jump around and in the end become very vague. After tracking the passage of time through the whole book, I came to the conclusion this was of very little help in understanding the book. But it is an interesting question that I'd enjoy discussing when everyone finishes the book.
Dr. Mark Caulkin's leads The Proust Society of America in San Francisco.His Proust website is http://www.tempsperdu.com.
There are two links about dates:
Novel: http://www.tempsperdu.com/chrono.html
Proust: http://www.tempsperdu.com/chronop.html
Thanks Marcelita, i have the Genet and Landy books and you've mentioned Mark Caulkins timeline. I've changed my opinion of the significance of the timeline yet again since the October post. My position on the specifics is that Proust was a genius and I am not so I need to try harder to understand details such as the timeline when there is talk of "Proust made a mistake.". All the highlighting I did regarding time and place still convince me these timelines you linked are off. It really doesn't matter but it is something that interests me.
Dave wrote: "Thanks Marcelita, i have the Genet and Landy books and you've mentioned Mark Caulkins timeline. I've changed my opinion of the significance of the timeline yet again since the October post.All the highlighting I did regarding time and place still convince me these timelines you linked are off. It really doesn't matter but it is something that interests me. ."
I don't see why your opinion is not as valid as another's. The Yahoo group might be a good place to "throw out" one of your lures and see what the response may be. ;)
I tend to be more of a "librarian," trying to post as many links as possible. Who knows who may stumble upon this thread in the future?
I hope, like the group: 2013: The Year of Reading Proust, this 2014 group will remain open for everyone to read.
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Thanks for the encouragement Marcelita. After I posted about the timelines I decided to start organizing what Hints I find to see how much I can sort out. Just for my own amusement. But I'll probably eventually post what I come up with here and maybe the on the Proust Group.Rather than loosely linking Search events, I now see the the purpose of the timeline as providing the span of time across which the changes occur which the Narrator observes. In my mind that gives it more gravitas. With characters and events in the plot, Proust can be very subtle and casual about significant facts. I believe he discloses the passage of and location in time the same way. Anyway, this little project will keep me occupied.
I also hope the group remains open, It is interesting how much discussion has been generated with a modest sized group.
Librarian? That seems too modest. Keeper of the Royal Proustian Treasure Vault perhaps.
I'm..."
Well, I think I'm realising that both of them are lying and playing games...but Albertine's lying somehow seems more 'normal', more humane...which sort of makes sense to me but I'd find it difficult to justify. :-)