Week ending 10/04: The Captive, to page 462 / location 444610

[Renato]

Use this topic thread for all The Captive discussions through page 462 / location 444610.

[Renato]

Guys, I'm having trouble finding the stop point for this week's read. According to the schedule posted, it stops right before the paragraph beginning: “Already for some little time I had felt...”

Can someone post a bit more of what goes after that, please?

Thanks!

[Dave]

Let me see if I can find it Renato.

[Dave]

"Already for some little time I had felt that I could no longer hold back the tears that came welling up in my eyes. And these tears did not spring from at all the same sort of misery which I had felt long ago when I said to Gilberte: “It is better that we should not see one another again; life is dividing us.”"

How spoiled I am, the damned iPad took more than TWO minutes to find that by searching the entire MKE Edition!

[Dave]

That is the beginning of an interior monologue that runs for several pages without paragraphing.

It occurs right after: "“It hurts me a thousand times more,” replied Albertine."

[Renato]

Found it, Dave, thanks! I searched for "mil vezes" which means "thousand times" and found it. :-)

[Jonathan]

You found it ok then? I notice that the break point is in the middle of paragraph in the Penguin edition - this made it difficult to find for me especially as it's a physical library copy.

[Renato]

Yes, it's always a bit challenging but I got it. I imagine how harder it is with a physical copy!

[Jonathan]

Ok, so the gloves are off! It's time for the bare-knuckle fight of the century! It's time for Charlus v Verdurin. There will be blood.

Although the Verdurins are quite obnoxious themselves I must admit I was looking forward to seeing someone stand up to the Baron....now if only someone would do so with the Verdurins. Maybe the best outcome would have been if they'd destroyed each other. :-)

[Jonathan]

When Mme Verdurin is trying to get Brichot and the narrator to agree to distract Charlus she mentions the sacrifices she's made for her friends and the narrator explains:

She was alluding to the circumstances in which she had forced him [Brichot] in the nick of time to break first of all with his laundress and then with Mme Cambremer, as a result of which Brichot had gone almost completely blind and, people said, had taken to morphine.

Er!...well I remember these incidents but I had been wondering why he'd gone blind, but just assumed it was just age-related. But this sentence implies a connection; when I first read it I thought 'does he mean what I think he means?' Ok, to be less coy - is the narrator implying that Brichot resorted to excessive masturbation? n.b. some Victorians believed that masturbation caused blindness.

[Dave]

Perhaps too much metaphorical self-gratification hanging out with the "little clan." ;)

[Jonathan]

I liked the little bits of self-analysis by the narrator, such as his lack of vanity inherited from his grandmother, his lack of self-importance and resentment, his slowness to anger, his lack of justice but his support of the underdog and weak.

I liked this quote in this section:

But the true nature which we repress continues nevertheless to abide within us. Thus it is that at times, if we read the latest masterpiece of a man of genius, we are delighted to find in it all those of our own reflexions which we have despised, joys and sorrows which we have repressed, a whole world of feelings we have scorned, and whose value the book in which we discover them afresh suddenly teaches us.

[Jonathan]

I'm constantly fascinated with the narrator's logic regarding Albertine; at one point his reasoning goes like this - I'm afraid that Albertine is thinking of leaving me which causes me to suffer so I'll have to prolong our relationship until I'm calm enough to break up with her. To do this, I'll insinuate that I want to leave her. Weird, but fascinating!

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "I liked the little bits of self-analysis by the narrator, such as his lack of vanity inherited from his grandmother, his lack of self-importance and resentment, his slowness to anger, his lack of j..."

I liked the quote Jonathan, but find the Narrator's self-analysis to be wanting. I acknowledge his grandmother lacked vanity (the only flawless character). Perhaps Proust was going for irony in the Narrator's glowing self analysis. I find him to be the opposite of what he self describes in at least half the characteristics. The remainder he will prove opposite of before this volume ends.

[Jonathan]

Well, Charlus certainly starts to spill the beans on his and everyone else's 'inversion' - "Three out of ten!!"

There are a lot of revelations about Swann & Odette and Odette & Charlus and Charlus & Swann...oops! you let that one out of the bag Charlus! I suspect that he did it deliberately.

I only realised in this section that we have Charles Swann, Baron Charlus and Charlie Morel.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "I liked the little bits of self-analysis by the narrator, such as his lack of vanity inherited from his grandmother, his lack of self-importance and resentment, his slowness to ang..."

Yes, I agree. I didn't mean to imply that I agreed with his analysis but it was interesting to hear how he viewed himself. I don't think he does it very often in the novel as it's mostly comments on the other characters or more generalisations, that admittedly include himself.

[Jonathan]

I was wondering how the narrator was going to keep his visit to the Verdurins a secret from Albertine, so I was amazed when he just comes out with 'Guess where I've been - at the Verdurins'...and he's surprised that she's annoyed!! Wow!

[Jonathan]

BTW I found Stephen Fall's comments on 'The Prisoner' interesting. His comments on the Penguin translations were very useful when I was trying to decide between the available translations.

[Dave]

Thanks for the lead on the Fall blog Jonathan. Unfortunately, as he mentions, I can't get the Kindle versions of the last three volumes in the US. I went to Amazon UK and found the Penguin editions, but no Kindle version, just a little green box in top right saying Kindle version was not available for my country from Amazon UK. A pox on Walt Disney and Sonny Bono! What is the street address of Windsor Palace so I can change my account settings and give a local address?

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Thanks for the lead on the Fall blog Jonathan. Unfortunately, as he mentions, I can't get the Kindle versions of the last three volumes in the US. I went to Amazon UK and found the Penguin editions..."

Yeah, it must be frustrating. I think it used to be possible to get round the Amazon nationality restriction by changing your home address but I don't think you can do it now - I never tried it though.

Is it possible to get them as epub books? Failing that get the physical books from eBay etc.

I'm actually back reading the MKE version but refer to a library Penguin copy now and then. When/if I re-read bits then I tend to use the Penguin version for that just to jazz it up a bit.

[Dave]

I've ordered books from Amazon UK before. I believe the Kindle books are available on the UK site. I've managed to bury myself in Proust related books so I'm good for now.

[Renato]

Wow, this week's read was packed with action. I was not expecting that at all!

Jonathan wrote: "Although the Verdurins are quite obnoxious themselves I must admit I was looking forward to seeing someone stand up to the Baron....now if only someone would do so with the Verdurins. Maybe the best outcome would have been if they'd destroyed each other. :-)"

I actually felt very bad for Charlus... perhaps because he didn't react as I was expecting him to... I thought he was gonna destroy everything with his mean remarks and make Mme. Verdurin cry!

[Renato]

Albertine said she only claimed to have known Mme. Vinteuil in order to make herself more interesting to the narrator. If that's true, I can't help but to laugh at the irony... that caused the narrator so many headaches and apparently all she wanted was to stay with him... do you think she was telling the truth here?

[Renato]

I remember there was a Theodore back in the 1st volume (or 2nd?). He worked near Aunt Leonie's house or something like that. Is this the same Theodore that's the brother of the maid of Mme. Putbus?

Also, we finally found out who that Crécy character who appeared in the last volume was: Odette's first husband! Did we know she had been married before Swann?

[Renato]

Because of the title of the next volume, I always assumed that Albertine would simply leave the narrator without any explanations. I took the title literally. But apparently - and this can change, of course - it was the narrator who broke up and told her to leave. So why The Fugitive...?

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "I'm constantly fascinated with the narrator's logic regarding Albertine; at one point his reasoning goes like this - I'm afraid that Albertine is thinking of leaving me which causes me to suffer so I'll have to prolong our relationship until I'm calm enough to break up with her. To do this, I'll insinuate that I want to leave her. Weird, but fascinating!"

I also thought this was fascinating. Isn't the "I'll wait till I no longer love her so I can break up without suffering" a recurring thing? I seem to remember there was something similar between Swann and Odette, and the narrator and Gilberte...

[Dave]

You still have a week's reading in this volume, right Renato? Patience, the Narrator changes his mind three times a page in this section.

[Renato]

Hahaha yes, I know! That's why I said it can still change... and yes, only one section left. I can't believe I'm about to finish Volume 5 already, wow!

[Dave]

The narrator's thoughts are laid out for the reader. But I can't help but feel that Proust is trying to show the inner turmoil of the Narrator that borders on madness - something not well understood in Proust's time. With this in mind, although the Narrator "gives explanations for decisions" I'm skeptical that they are rational or logical.

[Renato]

Dave, is there a reason for the narrator to introduce Albertine as his cousin and for him not wanting to be seen kissing her in public? Is this revealed later?

[Dave]

I don't remember that it is specifically revealed. I think I assumed it was because of concern that his society friends would assume she was a "kept woman" and disdain her as they did Odette. Remember, his mother did not approve of her "moving in" and Francois certainly doesn't approve. Yet he apparently asks her to stay in her room when friends come over. I suspect this is an instance when he thinks he is keeping a secret but everyone knows.

Remember, this whole volume occurs over 3 days in February (1909?). I think I figured out that Albertine only lived there a few months. During this volume mother is in Combray nursing a sick aunt, father is not referred to (my memory is that father more or less disappears from the novel in the last volumes) and mother too, with one significant exception.

I'd like to see a study of Proust's portrayal of family in the novel and its implications on the narrator. First time I read I was miffed that the narrator was so weird but that no psychological basis had established this weirdness. When I reread the "Combray" section of Swann's Way I was amazed at how clearly the narrator's interaction with his family pointed the way to the strange adult he would become.

[Dave]

Oh, I finished "Proust at the Majestic". I was touched that the night he died Celeste was helping him at his bedside edit the scene of Bergotte's death.
I read the book specifically for the account of Proust's funeral. I was fascinated by the route of the funeral cortege - the casket on a bier pulled by black horses. He lived south of the Arch de Triumph (near where Odette's house was in the novel?). After the service in a small nearby church it came north and turned West onto the Champs Elysee and traversed the entire city from East to West to get to Pere Lacaise. It moved so slowly that some mourners stopped to eat and the caught up. The book relates the different places and events in the book where it passed. Good book, I recommend it.

[Renato]

Wow, he died the night that he was editing Bergotte's death? I found that passage to be very moving, and now this... how sad...

[Dave]

Apparantly those that came to his apartment to view the body and learned this spread the word of his fanatical dedication to his art.

[Jonathan]

Renato wrote: "I can't help but to laugh at the irony... that caused the narrator so many headaches and apparently all she wanted was to stay with him... do you think she was telling the truth here? "

I'm really not sure, Renato, we've spent so long inside the head of the narrator that I think, even though we know he's a bit weird, we've been heavily influenced by his paranoia.

Did you find it refreshing to actually get to see things from Albertine's POV as well as me?

[Jonathan]

Renato wrote: "I remember there was a Theodore back in the 1st volume (or 2nd?). He worked near Aunt Leonie's house or something like that. Is this the same Theodore that's the brother of the maid of Mme. Putbus?..."

I've tried to avoid delving back into the previous volumes to find out about all these minor characters but I think I read a note somewhere that verifies your comment - that Theodore was related to the maid to Mme Putbus.

[Jonathan]

Renato wrote: "Because of the title of the next volume, I always assumed that Albertine would simply leave the narrator without any explanations. I took the title literally. But apparently - and this can change, ..."

Yes, I was expecting a similar thing to happen. I thought she wasn't going to be there when he returned - especially as the narrator kept saying things like 'because I'm certain that Albertine will be at home when I return' - could that be a Proustian double-bluff?

I liked Albertine's line: 'When I lie to you, it's always out of affection for you.'

[Dave]

That Proustian double-bluff lead me astray in a major way in the next volume.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "That Proustian double-bluff lead me astray in a major way in the next volume."

Ha! Ha! Sounds intriguing.

The most amazing thing for me was when he just tells Albertine that he visited the Verdurins, knowing full well that he'd talked her out of going there, and is then surprised that she's annoyed.

It was good to see that many of the narrator's fears were unfounded...though they're both expert liars...

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Oh, I finished "Proust at the Majestic". I was touched that the night he died Celeste was helping him at his bedside edit the scene of Bergotte's death.
I read the book specifically for the account..."

I'm looking forward to reading that book...all extra Proust material is on hold until I finish the novel though.

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "Did you find it refreshing to actually get to see things from Albertine's POV as well as me?"

It was refreshing, but it was only his account of her words... I wish we had moments of just Albertine so we could 'see' her better, but I guess this won't happen...

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "It was good to see that many of the narrator's fears were unfounded...though they're both expert liars... "

Plenty more fears where those came from....

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "I'm really not sure, Renato, we've spent so long inside the head of the narrator that I think, even though we know he's a bit weird, we've been heavily influenced by his paranoia."

Yes, look at what Proust is doing to us: we're overanalyzing people's words and actions and we're doubting everything!

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Did you find it refreshing to actually get to see things from Albertine's POV as well as me?"

Yes, look at what Proust is doing to us: we're overanalyzing people's words and actio..."

I think that is precisely the point Renato. I've mentioned before Proust's emphasis that we can never truly know another person. I never believed Albertine nor did I ever believe anything anybody told the Narrator about Albertine. She is just a big blank.

[Jonathan]

I thought Albertine's line about lying was interesting, and true - she lies out of love, whereas the narrator lies to gain control and sees Albertine's lying as disobedience.

[Renato]

How old is the narrator supposed to be in this Volume?

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "I thought Albertine's line about lying was interesting, and true - she lies out of love, whereas the narrator lies to gain control and sees Albertine's lying as disobedience."

But the thing is... is that even true? Why would she be telling the truth this time? I'm paranoid about her, haha!

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "I thought Albertine's line about lying was interesting, and true - she lies out of love, whereas the narrator lies to gain control and sees Albertine's lying as disobedience."

I'm more cynical Jonathan, how can we know what she says is true? We are (selectively) inside the Narrator's head, but we only have what somebody else says to go on with Albertine.

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "How old is the narrator supposed to be in this Volume?"

Gonna get mysterious again on you Renato, answering your question is a major spoiler.

[Renato]

What is really strange to me is the reason why she's 'with' him... why she keeps giving in to his ways... when it seems she doesn't really care:

When he was "I don't want to see you today", she was like "Ok, call me when you want me"...

When he found out she had a previous engagement to see someone, he said he was going along - to see her reaction - and she canceled it...

When he told her he loved Andree instead, she didn't seem to mind...

Now that he broke up with her, she's "Ok, if that's what you really want, I'll leave the house"... she seems so resigned to his decisions to use the "I only lie out of love" argument now...