Week ending 09/20: The Captive, to page 277 / location 42180

[Renato]

Use this topic thread for all The Captive discussions through page 277 / location 42180

[Jonathan]

I've got no time for re-reading this week; I'm just going to dive straight in...well, I've read the synopsis from last week to get my bearings :-)

[Renato]

I reread some bits, specially where the vendors were screaming outside!

[Dave]

When the vendors are hollering outside it reminded me of being at my in-laws house in Mexico. I really like that!

[Jonathan]

In a note that Albertine sends to the narrator she uses 'Marcel' several times. I wonder if it's only Albertine that will use his name in the rest of the novel?

[Jonathan]

When talking about Morel's 'algebra lessons' the narrator goes on to say that Charlus:

...was too caught up in the toils of his own social life to be able to unravel the tangled skein of Morel's occupations. The visits he received or paid, the time he spent at the club, the dinner-parties, the evenings at the theatre, prevented him from thinking about the problem, or for that matter about the malevolence, at once violent and underhand, to which (it was reported) Morel had been wont to give vent and which he had at the same time sought to conceal in the successive circles, the different towns through which he had passed, and where people still spoke of him with a shudder, with bated breath, never daring to say anything about him.

We don't really know anything about Morel at this stage but this makes him out to be a bit of a psycho! Feared throughout the land!

He goes on to say that Morel is mad as well. Are we to take that literally?

[Jonathan]

So, when Marcel drags...er, I mean gets Francoise to drag Albertine from the theatre and has her by his side he then starts to moan that her presence bores and tires him. Isn't this just totally unreasonable!?

He also claims that Albertine's presence is preventing him from going to Venice. But why? Why not go with her? Her presence prevents him from flirting with other women...damn that Albertine!

He enjoys walking about with a pretty girl, but only as long as she's with him. He remembers that what he found attractive about Albertine was that she was some sort of wild 'mysterious bird' but now that she's captive in his house he's no longer interested.

Just when we think 'does he not realise the unreasonableness of his expectations' there's a passage where he almost comes out with a good summary of his own thoughts:

We consider it innocent to desire, and heinous that the other person should do so.

This 'quirk' of his helps to explain a lot of his actions. He also mentions that the same applies to lying, i.e. it's ok for him to do it but it is unbearable in others, especially those that he loves.

[Jonathan]

Proust likes teasing us but here he doesn't even bother pretending that we'll find out further on in the novel:

In the case of Albertine, the prospect of her continued society was painful to me in another way which I cannot explain in this narrative.

[Jonathan]

This picture of a woman (Miss Muriel Gore) in a Fortuny dress by Oswald Hornby Joseph Birley is pretty much how I imagined Albertine to look:

[Jonathan]

Marcel is certainly a bit weird:

But if Albertine could have looked less young, not so pretty, less able to turn heads in the street, that is what would have pleased me.

I like the way that the narrator feels reassured that Albertine is at home alone when he's off out at the Verdurin's. How can he be sure that she hasn't sneaked out or let someone in the house? Yes, Françoise is no doubt keeping guard but I'm surprised that the narrator has no doubts on this matter.

[Jonathan]

When the narrator gets talking about Swann's death we get this little bit where we're surely hearing Proust speaking rather than the narrator:

And yet, my dear Charles Swann, whom I used to know when I was still so young and you were nearing your grave, it is because he whom you must have regarded as a young idiot has made you the hero of one of his novels that people are beginning to speak of you again and that your name will perhaps live. If, in Tissot's picture representing the balcony of the Rue Royale club, where you figure with Galliffet, Edmond de Polignac and Saint-Maurice, people are always drawing attention to you, it is because they see that there are some traces of you in the character of Swann.

It's surely odd for a novelist to draw attention to the real-life influences of a character in their book; maybe more common these days but it must have seemed strange then. Would it have made Proust more open to being prosecuted as well, for 'defamation of character' or other such laws?

The painting in question is the Le Cercle de la rue Royale which is in the 'Paintings in Proust' book or a high quality online version can be found on the French Wikipedia site and the person in question is Charles Haas, who is standing in the doorway on the far right-hand side of the picture.

BTW, a Google 'image search' reveals loads of excellent paintings by Tissot; many of which are familiar.

[Jonathan]

Brichot mentions that the Verdurin's former house was partially burnt down; is that the first time that's been mentioned? I wonder what happened? It's probably not relevant, but you never know with Proust.

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "This picture of a woman (Miss Muriel Gore) in a Fortuny dress by Oswald Hornby Joseph Birley is pretty much how I imagined Albertine to look:"

I'm used to imagining her like this:



It's the cover for the english e-book I use for reference sometimes. It's the Moncrieff translation.

Speaking about different editions: in mine, there are several paragraphs that contain a note saying that they were absent from the original Portuguese translation, but included since they were in the last French edition from Bibliothèque de la Pléiade.

So in this week's section, I wanted to quote this funny part where the narrator mentions Charlus was nicknamed 'la Couturière' (something like "the seamstress", as in this passage he was talking about Albertine's dresses), but it wasn't in the english edition above:

"A cet égard M. de Charlus eût mérité le surnom qu’on lui donna plus tard, 'la Couturière'."

Does your edition include it, guys?

This all started when he stated that Charlus had a keen eye for detail that himself didn't - yeah, right...

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "We don't really know anything about Morel at this stage but this makes him out to be a bit of a psycho! Feared throughout the land!

He goes on to say that Morel is mad as well. Are we to take that literally? "

He must be. After all, he's in a relationship with Charlus!


Jonathan wrote: "In a note that Albertine sends to the narrator she uses 'Marcel' several times. I wonder if it's only Albertine that will use his name in the rest of the novel?"

I was wondering that myself. It seems it is. I wonder why he made that choice though...

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "It's surely odd for a novelist to draw attention to the real-life influences of a character in their book; maybe more common these days but it must have seemed strange then. Would it have made Proust more open to being prosecuted as well, for 'defamation of character' or other such laws?"

Once again, when you think he hasn't payed much attention to someone's death, he leaves it for the next volume! Finally some words and sadness about Swann's death! I remember saying that it was odd that a character that was the hero of the first volume received such a cold treatment after dying...

His words about death this time reminded me of a José Saramago book that I like very very much: Death with Interruptions.

I also found it very unusual the way he mentioned it though. Dave, even here, it's not Proust 'talking' at all? He started talking to Swann (fictional character) but then addressed a real person (Haas). That's really confusing.

Well, the narrative is very confusing. The narrator stated many times that he should start writing, and then that he gave up etc, and out of nowhere he acknowledges his romance once again... it's such an interesting mix up of the narrator in his twenties (is he still in his twenties in this volume? I'm a little lost now...) with an older narrator... does that make any sense?

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "This 'quirk' of his helps to explain a lot of his actions. He also mentions that the same applies to lying, i.e. it's ok for him to do it but it is unbearable in others, especially those that he loves."

Spoiled. Is that any other word to describe him? :-)

I find it really interesting to read about him and to analyze his thoughts and actions... I often find it funny how he's unreasonable. But if I knew him in person, I would have screamed at him by now... heck, a long time ago, actually. And unfriended him on Goodreads as well!

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "Marcel is certainly a bit weird:

But if Albertine could have looked less young, not so pretty, less able to turn heads in the street, that is what would have pleased me."

This reminded of a relationship I was in. The person didn't like when I uploaded a profile picture in Facebook where I looked nice as it obviously meant I was putting myself out there and being disrespectful... the craziness!

[Renato]

One of the highlights this week for me was how he went from playing music and singing - is that a first? I didn't know he could play the piano... - to talking about music, then artists, and then Morel! What a way to connect everything starting with the Vinteuil sonata...

[Renato]

Also, I've commented before on who was the captive here... I guess both are:

"I was more of a master than I had supposed. More of a master, in other words more of a slave."

One is the other's captive... they exchange places as master and slave...

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "This picture of a woman (Miss Muriel Gore) in a Fortuny dress by Oswald Hornby Joseph Birley is pretty much how I imagined Albertine to look:

"

I really like that painting Jonathan, Albertine is not beautiful. She is described elsewhere as plain. I think that painting captures "plain" nicely.

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "When the narrator gets talking about Swann's death we get this little bit where we're surely hearing Proust speaking rather than the narrator:And yet, my dear Charles Swann, whom I used to know whe..."

It is just so hard to keep my mouth shut on these "who is "speaking" comments. I stand by what I said before. I couldn't begin to try and explain it without spoiling the "first read" experience and terribly confusing those still reading. As for real life persons, cameo roles are not uncommon in novels and I don't think the Code Napoleon treats libel and slander as laws based on English Common Law. Historical event occasionally occur also which is how I came up with my little chronology - only to find out later it was "beside the point".

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "Brichot mentions that the Verdurin's former house was partially burnt down; is that the first time that's been mentioned? I wonder what happened? It's probably not relevant, but you never know with..."

I missed that. Not mentioned elsewhere that I know of. Could be seen as symbolic I guess.

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "This picture of a woman (Miss Muriel Gore) in a Fortuny dress by Oswald Hornby Joseph Birley is pretty much how I imagined Albertine to look:"

I'm used to imagining her like this:..."

I like Jonathan's painting better Renato, better suits my imagination based on what's to come.

Charlus is very talented, of course folks tease him behind his back - for his sexuality but also out of jealousy I suspect.

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "We don't really know anything about Morel at this stage but this makes him out to be a bit of a psycho! Feared throughout the land!

He goes on to say that Morel is mad as well. Ar..."

Interesting how Proust leads readers around by the nose in there perceptions of characters over time. An aspect of one of his major themes and quite realistic, my opinion changes over of others.

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Marcel is certainly a bit weird:

But if Albertine could have looked less young, not so pretty, less able to turn heads in the street, that is what would have pleased me."

This re..."

He he, looks are in the eye of the beholder, she's plain in the narrator's opinion later.

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "One of the highlights this week for me was how he went from playing music and singing - is that a first? I didn't know he could play the piano... - to talking about music, then artists, and then Mo..."

I take it your speaking of Charlus? As I said, he is genuinely talented and has a sophisticated taste for art, music etc. As opposed to the members of the little group, who are poseurs.

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "Also, I've commented before on who was the captive here... I guess both are:


"I was more of a master than I had supposed. More of a master, in other words more of a slave."

One is the other's ..."

Excellent quote, and quite profound. I have a comment on this topic at the last week of the volume.

[Dave]

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "It's surely odd for a novelist to draw attention to the real-life influences of a character in their book; maybe more common these days but it must have seemed strange then. Would ..."

My best advise Renato is try not to get tripped up on "who is speaking" etc. Renato. I wasted a lot of time trying to overthink. Looking back, I just don't think anyone reading the novel the first time can possibly "get it right"- and I think that is Proust's intent. Once you finish, you can start sorting it out. Again, rereading gives the discipline and structure in my mind to sort it out. I'm finding passages that I just blew by without a thought first time which, come to find out, have great significance later in the novel.

[Renato]

Dave wrote: "I take it your speaking of Charlus? As I said, he is genuinely talented and has a sophisticated taste for art, music etc. As opposed to the members of the little group, who are poseurs."

No, I was talking about the narrator: he played the piano and sang!

[Renato]

That's good advice, Dave. I keep trying to figure everything out and get too attached to details...

[Dave]

Yeah, the Narrator is a "legend in his own shorts" (as we say here in Texas)

[Jonathan]

Renato wrote: "So in this week's section, I wanted to quote this funny part where the narrator mentions Charlus was nicknamed 'la Couturière' (something like "the seamstress", as in this passage he was talking about Albertine's dresses), but it wasn't in the english edition above:..."

It's funny that you mentioned that section Renato, because I recognised it but just looked for it in my Vintage (MKE) version, but couldn't find it. Then I remembered that I actually read the last twenty pages of this week's read from the library Penguin version I have - this was because my kindle needed charging and the Vintage version is on my kindle. The narrator goes on to say that he wished that Charlus had written books.

My Vintage version, however has seven passages as an addenda; the problem is that they're marked by a tiny asterisk in the text and their position can be easily missed.

[Jonathan]

Renato wrote: "I find it really interesting to read about him and to analyze his thoughts and actions... I often find it funny how he's unreasonable. But if I knew him in person, I would have screamed at him by now... heck, a long time ago, actually. And unfriended him on Goodreads as well! ..."

Ha! Ha! Yes, in person he'd be a nightmare...but as a character in a book he's very interesting. I don't know why this volume is considered to be worse than the others - I'm finding it very readable.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "I really like that painting Jonathan, Albertine is not beautiful. She is described elsewhere as plain. I think that painting captures "plain" nicely. ..."

I think that Miss Muriel Gore is quite beautiful, not plain. :-) The problem with Albertine's beauty is that we only have the narrator's view and as he flips between loving her and hating her it's difficult to come to any conclusion. Even when he's afraid of her beauty attracting everyone who comes into her orbit this might just be the narrator's jealousy ratcheting up another notch. For the record, I think of Albertine as a bit of a beauty.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Interesting how Proust leads readers around by the nose in there perceptions of characters over time. An aspect of one of his major themes and quite realistic, my opinion changes over of others...."

I like this aspect of novels where we see things from different viewpoints. Proust does this brilliantly and he also shows us how people and their standing in society changes over time or as we find out more details. This aspect of ISOLT is portrayed very naturally.

[Jonathan]

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "I take it your speaking of Charlus? As I said, he is genuinely talented and has a sophisticated taste for art, music etc. As opposed to the members of the little group, who are poseurs..."

Making the most of the fact that I was alone, and half closing the curtains so that the sun would not stop me reading the notes, I sat down at the piano, opened Vinteuil's sonata which happened to be lying there, and began to play...

He's playing the piano in this volume, horse-riding in the last volume...what's next? yodelling?

[Dave]

Yes,, beauty is in the eye (or more accurately the mind) of the beholder, and we behold the other characters in ISOLT through the narrator's "eyes". I enjoy looking at the paintings but I never fix in my mind a book character from a visual source. I'm becoming more OCD about that in my old age. The biggest challenge in that regard for me is to try and imagine the Narrator as someone other than the classic Proust portrait with the big round eyes. Michelangelo screwed up God for me, He'll always be an old man with a long white beard in a nightshirt flying across the ceiling.

[Dave]

A key point of the novel is what the Narrator is NOT doing!

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Yes,, beauty is in the eye (or more accurately the mind) of the beholder, and we behold the other characters in ISOLT through the narrator's "eyes". I enjoy looking at the paintings but I never fi..."

It doesn't usually bother me too much as I don't have a strong visual sense...by that I mean, when I read a book I'm not actually visualising it as such....so it doesn't overpower the 'sense' that I get from reading it...I don't really visualise the narrator when I'm reading it anyway.

[Jonathan]

Sometimes Proust's similes and metaphors leave me a bit cold, or baffled, but I really liked the way that Charlus, whilst striding along the street with some ruffians in his wake, was likened to a shark with smaller fish following it.

[Renato]

Dave wrote: "A key point of the novel is what the Narrator is NOT doing!"

What a tease!!

[Dave]

Yes, I like the shark simile! Almost all of these details you and Renato point out I have overlooked or forgotten. I find it amusing in his longer sentences Proust sometimes includes four or five similes about the same thing! Like he had all these good ideas and decided on "all of the above". The world is better off that he didn't have someone like Max Perkins for an editor. OK M. Proust, you can have a simile in this sentence, but only one! You choose.

[Dave]

Ha, ha Renato! Its hiding in plain sight. Think about it.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Yes, I like the shark simile! Almost all of these details you and Renato point out I have overlooked or forgotten. I find it amusing in his longer sentences Proust sometimes includes four or five s..."

Reading the early volumes, I did, at times, think that Proust could have done with an editor. Reading this volume, where he didn't have the opportunity to add more material, I'm wondering if all he needed was to have someone to stop him tinkering, as this volume seems a lot more 'immediate' and fresh than the others. Admittedly, it's a bit more chaotic, but then I don't mind that.

[Dave]

One of the things I've learned in the outside reading is that he is perhaps the most masterful at capturing a moment of time, an internal moment if you will and writing it in a way that conveys great meaning as well as beauty. A sentence I saw referenced in the Cambridge Companion to Proust (and which, again, I had passed unnoticed) so impressed me I memorized it (75 words, a shorty for Proust) and carry it around in my head to "play with". Its become my own personal train timetable. I have found so much meaning in that one sentence as it relates to the rest of the book, that I could speak extemporaneously for 40 minutes or so. It is from Guermantes Way, just after Mme Stermaria fails to show for the lunch date. If you want to look it up it begins, "Weary, resigned, occupied for several hours still with its immemerable task, the grey day stiched..."

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "Sometimes Proust's similes and metaphors leave me a bit cold, or baffled, but I really liked the way that Charlus, whilst striding along the street with some ruffians in his wake, was likened to a shark with smaller fish following it."

I found that one really good as well.


Jonathan wrote: "He's playing the piano in this volume, horse-riding in the last volume...what's next? yodelling?"

LOL I hope he does it soon!

[Renato]

Dave wrote: "Ha, ha Renato! Its hiding in plain sight. Think about it."

Damn it, I really have no idea! What he's not doing... he's not being reasonable, haha. He's not... living? :-O LOL.

Don't tell me though :-)

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "Ha! Ha! Yes, in person he'd be a nightmare...but as a character in a book he's very interesting. I don't know why this volume is considered to be worse than the others - I'm finding it very readable."

I'm with you on this. I'm really enjoying it so far, as much as I did with the previous ones.

[Renato]

"They buried him, but all through that night of mourning, in the lighted shop-windows, his books, arranged three by three, kept vigil like angels with outspread wings and seemed, for him who was no more, the symbol of his resurrection."

While speaking about Bergotte's death, there was this quote... I found it so stunning and moving. I got chills while reading it...

I could picture A la recherche keeping vigil for Proust... and here we are, 100 years later talking about him. His books really were the symbol of his resurrection...

[Dave]

Yes, Bergotte's death is very moving.