Week ending 07/12: Sodom and Gomorrah, to page 164 / location 30940

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "re: Surgis bros. All I could think of was that for Charlus it was the novelty factor though I'm unsure why he would have been less interested if they had different mothers or fathers.

Everyone sho..."
That may be Jonathan. novelty for Charlus' conquests and novelty for the reader to make Charlus seem odd.

It might be interesting to create a deSade group just to se who would sign up.

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "I decided to re-read this week's section before continuing as I think I rushed the reading last week. Does anyone else do this? I find that the relatively relaxed schedule gives me the ability to do this if I wish. "

I've never re-read any entire week's section, but I do with parts here and there all the time.

[Dave]

I think that is a great idea and a benefit of the schedule. I have reread sections where I felt my first reading was too distracted. The party being narrated this week seems to have outsized importance in the book. The narrator thinks of it a number of times later and there is a "structural" connection with an event later in the book.

[Jonathan]

I certainly feel that I gain a better understanding when re-reading. I don't always do it of course but I decided to switch back from the Penguin translation to the MKE version as the Penguin version was starting to annoy me; it was especially annoying during the party episodes where there were multiple characters.

Reading Proust with this group and with this schedule has encouraged me to slow down my reading. I find it counter-intuitive that reading a long book has slowed down my reading rather than speeding it up, but there we are...

[Dave]

How is the Penguin Edition annoying with multiple characters Jonathan?

For myself, I feel Proust has moulded me into the reader he needed me to be to appreciate his novel. At the beginning, I was a "head down, shoulder to the wheel, lets get through this" reader. It was in next week's reading (a comment you already read Jonathan) Proust "clicked" for me and I began to enjoy the journey without constantly looking at the odometer to consider how far I had to go to finish.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "How is the Penguin Edition annoying with multiple characters Jonathan?..."

I've posted some messages on the Translations page. In summary, the Penguin translations seem to follow Proust's punctuation regarding dialogue closely, but it's a total mess as far as I'm concerned. It looks like Montcrieff tidied it up and made sense of it which makes it more readable. But the Penguin kindle version for S&G not only had all this dialogue confusion but it had typos as well. Also, some of the sentences were just gibberish. The Penguin translations for vol.2&3 were pretty good but I've made a final decision: from hereon I'm reading the MKE version...sorted!

[Dave]

Thanks for explaining that. I used the Montcrieff translation for volumes 3-6 to conform to the translation of Naxos Audiobook. Montcrieff died before translating Time Regained and the Audiobook used a private translation so I returned the Audiobook and I'm reading some public domain translation. I was nervous at first of reading without my audio crutch, but since I know the characters voices And how to pronounce names and places it has been pretty easy.

In the translations I used I often wondered how hard it is to keep track of who says what in dialogue when reading because mostly the lines are written without indicating who is speaking. I've had to sort that out a few times in the last volume. I depended on the audio reader to indicate that when listening.

[Jonathan]

Er...so, I'm re-reading this week's section in the MKE (Vintage) version and I've reached the point where the narrator mentions the 'interesting story with the queen, the barber and the bus conductor' and there's a note directing me to the Addenda (the Penguin version just had a note saying that it wasn't included in the finished text) where the story, which was in Proust's manuscript, is included - it's about 8 pages long. I'll have to find an easy way of posting it.

[Renato]

Really? Now I'm curious to read it! I wonder if Marcelita knows if it's online somewhere...

[Dave]

Jonathan wrote: "Er...so, I'm re-reading this week's section in the MKE (Vintage) version and I've reached the point where the narrator mentions the 'interesting story with the queen, the barber and the bus conduct..."

Please do Jonathan, that story is alluded to in an important section in the last volume.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Please do Jonathan, that story is alluded to in an important section in the last volume. "

Ok, check out the thread in the Supplementary Reading folder. Enjoy! :-)

N.B. THIS MATERIAL POTENTIALLY CONTAINS SPOILERS so if you're worried about things like that it may be best to avoid it. It is material that was in the manuscript but not in the published edition. The choice is yours.

[Dave]

Great job Jonathan! Interesting, funny, and important. I am assuming there is no hard evidence as to why Proust left this out. Having read all of S & G I have some possible reasons to suggest. I will post a comment about this at the end of S&G. When the group gets there we can discuss our collective impressions.

[Renato]

Thanks a lot, Jonathan! Gonna check it out! :)

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "Great job Jonathan! Interesting, funny, and important. I am assuming there is no hard evidence as to why Proust left this out. Having read all of S & G I have some possible reasons to suggest. I wi..."

Unfortunately, I have no idea why it was left out Dave. I wonder if Marcelita knows? I can only think that it reveals too much of the relationship between Charlus & the Princess - this might be why in the sentence that replaced it Proust mentions a 'queen' rather than a 'princess'...possibly.

[Dave]

On reflection Jonathan, and after I wrote out my comments, I believe it reveals too much information in several respects. You and Renato will have to see how it affects your reading of S & G. But my recommendation is that you move your reference to the Addendum to the last week of the volume for others in the group. Generally it gives too much information in a number of ways that I believe Proust meant to be disclosed later in the volume.

[Jonathan]

Dave wrote: "On reflection Jonathan, and after I wrote out my comments, I believe it reveals too much information in several respects. You and Renato will have to see how it affects your reading of S & G. But m..."

Thanks for the advice Dave. I've added a note to say that there are possible spoilers then people can make up their own minds. I think it belongs in this week's read as that is where the original material appeared.

Personally I'm not particularly worried about finding out future material as I've inadvertently discovered things along the way anyway and it hasn't spoiled things as far as I'm concerned. I don't seek it out but it doesn't worry me. But others may not want to read it at this point so the choice is theirs. Thanks.

[Dave]

Good decision Jonathan, let folks decide for themselves. Perhaps the Carter biography will discuss the publication process and shed additional light.

Hope you enjoyed the World Cup. I'll probably finish "Time Regained" this evening.

[Jonathan]

Wow! The end of ISOLT.

When are you planning on starting the Carter bio? We've made tentative plans to start it after we've finished ISOLT.

[Dave]

I'll wait for you guys on the bio. I'm going to read the Howard Moss' book "Magic Lantern of Marcel Proust" and Roger Shattuck's "Reader's Guide to In Search of Lost Time". I've dipped into both and they are exactly what I'm looking for post-ISOLT reading.

If I finish early enough (hell, whatever time I finish) I'm going to pour a whiskey, select some French Chamber music from my records that I imagine Vintuel' Sonata might have sounded like, and contiplate my induction into Proust's Jockey Club. :) Not every day you scratch something off your bucket list.

[Renato]

Jonathan wrote: "I recently (re)watched the films My Father's Glory & My Mother's Castle based on Marcel Pagnol's books. These are superb films (as well as Jean de Florette) and thoroughly recommended to all Proust fans, but I've never actually read anything by him; his books are difficult to get in English - another reason to learn French."

Jonathan, thanks a lot for these recommendations. I watched My Father's Glory & My Mother's Castle yesterday and I really, really loved both. I can only imagine how good the books are!

[Jonathan]

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "I recently (re)watched the films My Father's Glory & My Mother's Castle based on Marcel Pagnol's books. These are superb films (as well as Jean de Florette) and thoroughly recommen..."

I'm glad you liked them Renato. It was the Combray part in SW that made me think of them again. They're the sort of films that I could watch every five years or so. Sadly, I've never read anything by Pagnol though I have got a copy of The Water of the Hills here that I intend to read sometime soon - again these were made into brilliant films: Jean de Florette & Manon des Sources; but you've probably seen those? And the other day I watched another Pagnol-inspired film, The Well-digger's Daughter which was good but not as good as the others mentioned. What is it with these Marcel P's?

[Renato]

Actually I haven't seen those either, Jonathan! Already on my list though. And hopefully my project of learning French to read ISOLT actually happens so I'll be able to read Pagnol as well.

The beginning of My Father's Glory reminded me so much of the Combray part in SW! I wonder if he was influenced by Proust? I looked for any information about this on his Wikipedia page but there was no mention of it.