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Using Real History in Time Travel
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Just to be clear, my books are:Beyond the Elastic Limit
Piercing the Elastic Limit
Tales of the Elastic Limit
Oh yeah, they all deal with the Elastic Limit of Time, a term used in the books but also a metaphor for the human imagination.
Just saying
What is an "elastic limit"? It sounds like time can bend, but not break, or perhaps that the historical timeline can bend, but not be changed in some respect?
Good question, Jim, thanks for asking:In my scenario you cannot encompass Time itself, it's too vast & the machinery used would consume too much power trying, a problem encountered in one of the books.
However, within containment, a rigidly-controlled flow can be generated, but only when held within a specific range of threshold, known as the Elastic Limit.
This created distortion must remain within strict parameters or it will exceed its threshold, a phenomena known as passing Beyond the Elastic Limit, not a good thing, but something nonetheless that does happen in another book.
Of course, when the theory (& practice) is used properly, wonderful benefits are produced, as in my latest book, which as a consequence can be read backward.
Time is fluid, after all.
Hope this clears everything up, thanks.
Thanks Mika, #5: (*Mika deleted her post #5, which was a techinical definition of Elastic Limit)Time though, not metal, but glad you get the idea.
Jargon, however, (the specialized language of any discipline) is also covered in every Epic Fable on the Elastic Limit:
BEYOND, Part Three (chapters 7, 8, 9); PIERCING, chapter 6; TALES, chapter 6
Mika, thanks for your post which opened this point:Jargon is a recurring theme in all Elastic Limit Epic Fables, both as a concept and discipline, but also as a character and this convention is used many times in all books.
For example, Primus is either a god, a conception, a Corporation or a Theory to be proved, yet each variation always encompasses universal human tendencies that govern personal choice.
Yet these heavy concepts are couched within simply told narrative layered and intertwined to encompass the personal choices everyone must make, regardless of circumstance in any given Timeframe.
Literature taken as a discipline employs much jargon also: a Short Story is a contained piece, a Novel has broader plots and characters, a Fable is simple but has a point while an Epic has universal appeal.
'Universal appeal' is jargon as well when talking Epics, for the story is always secondary by definition, and the real meat is held within the changes characters undergo, the choices they make, and the people they become thereby, and this transformation is something that everyone can relate to, at least in theory.
I write Epic Fables about Time; simple yet complicated.
Paradox, you know, is always the chance you take.
This is covered in the books, too.
Just saying
I have used some real history in Hide in Time. The outcome of the battle of Waterloo plays a pivotal role and someone takes a huge chance on Wellington winning. I've also used a real person who made a fortune on the stock exchange by being the first to know the outcome.I like the idea of having a few real events to pin the rest of the story on.
The fact that you have so many historical facts incorporated into your books, Howard, makes them much more interesting, I think.
Thanks Anna.Waterloo is full of Historical significance & from many differing points of interest.
It's a great choice.
Good luck to you.
Mika, History is not an exact science & while striving for the truth it contains many mysteries & they're built in, as it were.I use these, for often the record is mysterious enough & being so, it's ripe for the picking.
Also, my machine tells me what really happened.
Heh heh heh
Howard wrote: "I use these, for often the record is mysterious enough & being so, it's ripe for the picking..."Good point, Howard. Sometimes it's just as valuable to find out what is NOT known. "Ripe for the picking," as you say, for some savory TT Historical Fiction. You do it well.
Well, Paul, from your fine book I can tell that we both know that History is just the backdrop & not the point.Also, I suspect we both know that there are plenty of books that don't make this distinction & they are the ones that 'lecture' or just list the dry facts & such are a burden to read or, in my case, attempt to read.
Still, good story telling will out, true History or not.
My latest book is historical fiction not time travel like my first but it is the same principle occurring. Some of the events are true but who knows what one man said to another before being hanged. There's scope for the author to create what might have happened.
So true Anna.My Epic Fables are in large part dialogue driven yet paced within an authentic context & I try to shed light on the lesser known points within each Historical setting as opposed to only stating the known record.
The best response I get are from those who don't, as a rule, read History & are thereby pleased by this aspect, which is only secondary to the overall SiFi plot.
Every good writer of Historical fiction treads ahead with made up dialogue; Arthur Conan Doyle wrote two books on an ancestor of mine, Sir Nigel Loring, who was an English Knight in the Hundred Years War & his use of dialogue is not the point of these adventure tales.
Be bold & employ language to enhance not to lecture & you will have a fine outcome no matter your genre.
As I said, good story telling will out.
I wish you luck.
Hello to all fellow time travel afficionados!
Time travel and alternate history/historical fiction has been at the center of nearly all my books (available for free online on GR), and this particular subject is a passionate one for me. Time travel is for me the perfect excuse to, first, show and describe history and historical characters to the readers, and second to create 'what if' situations that would fascinate my readers. I have written a complete, 7-book series featuring a Canadian time traveler from 2012 who creates and leads an organization called the Time Patrol, based at first in the 34th Century. First book of the series is Codename: Athena
. My books feature tons of actual historical characters, both in the past and present, many very well known publicly, but always treated according to their true character and with respect (for those who deserve respect. Stalin and Hitler? Meeh!)
History is always worth reading about, even through some fiction.
Time travel and alternate history/historical fiction has been at the center of nearly all my books (available for free online on GR), and this particular subject is a passionate one for me. Time travel is for me the perfect excuse to, first, show and describe history and historical characters to the readers, and second to create 'what if' situations that would fascinate my readers. I have written a complete, 7-book series featuring a Canadian time traveler from 2012 who creates and leads an organization called the Time Patrol, based at first in the 34th Century. First book of the series is Codename: Athena
. My books feature tons of actual historical characters, both in the past and present, many very well known publicly, but always treated according to their true character and with respect (for those who deserve respect. Stalin and Hitler? Meeh!) History is always worth reading about, even through some fiction.
Michel #14:Thanks for the post Michel; you are one prolific author & as such, you've made your own mark on history.
Good luck to you.
Hello to all fellow time travel afficionados! Time travel and alternate history/historical fiction are also at the center of my new novel, "Hitler's Time Machine," published December 20. As Michel suggests, time travel and alternate history fit together very nicely. In "Hitler's Time Machine," I have characters named Adolf Hitler, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Lou Gehrig, James Gavin and Heinrich Himmler among others, but are they the real people with these names or some alternate version?
I come to fiction for the first time after writing non-fiction for 60 years, much of it military history. My previous four non-fiction books were about World War II, so "Hitler's Time Machine" was a natural.
Robert #16:Robert, yes, I love alternate History & used this device in my 1st Epic Fable, but when I write about 'real people' or employ plots involving real Historical Context, as in my 2nd & 3rd books, the facts are always true.
Good luck to you.
Thank you, Howard. In "Hitler's Time Machine" I kept a lot of big things intact (spoilers coming) but changed a couple of small things.I used the real historical dates for Franklin D. Roosevelt's summer vacation in 1908, the whereabouts of Winston Churchill in 1910, the Pearl Harbor attack in 1941 and the invasion of Sicily in 1943.
But in "Hitler's Time Machine," I used incorrect dates for the presence of Hitler and Himmler in various locations, Rommel being strafe4d by a Spitfire, and the Philadelphia Experiment (which isn't real history, anyway ... is it?)
Michel & Robert:As an example of my use of Historical Fiction, here's a paragraph from the 'Notes on Context' page found at the end of my new book of short stories concerning the Elastic Limit of Time:
'Historic figures mentioned in Part Two of this collection are genuine, and the circumstances surrounding them are accurately portrayed; for example: Archimedes of Syracuse was indeed murdered after his doomed city fell, the events of the ill-fated Battle of the Solent took place as described, William Clark did send fossils to President Jefferson as depicted, and Albert Einstein’s father truly was a pioneering electrical engineer.'
Howard's latest post brings to mind a couple of questions.In "Hitler's Time Machine," I resisted the urge to explain to the reader which things were real and which weren't. In fact, I resisted the urge to provide any explanation at all. I wanted the reader to encounter blood on the floor in the first sentence and arrive at the end scratching his head.
A friend who helped with this project persuaded me to write a very brief introduction to "Hitler's Time Machine" (just a couple of sentences) and to put acknowledgements in the back (just a couple of short paragraphs). I would have preferred for the reader to encounter nothing but the first and last sentences of the book and the stuff in between.
But how realistic does realistic have to be? I needed to have Roosevelt make a visit to 2430 E Street Northwest but could find no record that he ever had. I had him make the visit anyway. I needed a large, American, four-engined flying boat in the Mediterranean, so I put a PB2Y-1 Coronado there, even though PB2Ys served only in the Pacific. Bottom line: I tried to have most of the real historical figures do things that seemed realistic.
Robert #20:Robert, relax, Historical Fiction is by definition fiction, so I see nothing wrong with what you do; the proof is in the pudding.
My point is that my work is couched within reality, for example:
Julius Caesar won the 1st Roman Civil War at Munda, in Southern Iberia in 45 BC & in Part One of my 2nd Epic Fable he meets a mysterious Oracle there who, of course, is more than he seems.
In Part Two, Christopher Marlowe's life as an Elizabethan spy (as well as being a great writer) is explored & this is incorporated into what historically happened to him as a consequence.
As well, much of the chapters on Robert Schumann (Part Three) take place in the insane asylum in which this master musician was committed & later died.
All of the auxiliary characters & situations covered are factual, as in Schumann's doctors & the treatments they used on him, etc. but how these real people interact is just the basis, or backdrop, of the Time Traveling adventure tale & that's the real point, not the History involved.
Yet a Time Travel author need not stick to this proposition; it's just that I do.
In your case, nothing wrong there, as I said.
Carry on & be bold; I strive to do this.
Just saying.
Howard wrote: "Robert #20:
Relax, Historical Fiction is by definition fiction, so I see nothing wrong with what you do; the proof is in the pudding.
My point is that my work is couched within reality, for examp..."
I actually had one reader comment that I had mentioned the wrong variant of an aircraft engine in one of my stories (had it used in 1940, vs 1943, not that too many people would know the exact manufacturing dates of the HERCULES XIX vs that of the HERCULES XIII). Some readers can be very nitpicky about historical details, but an author can only spend so much time researching every little detail, if he wants to have some time left to write the book itself!
Relax, Historical Fiction is by definition fiction, so I see nothing wrong with what you do; the proof is in the pudding.
My point is that my work is couched within reality, for examp..."
I actually had one reader comment that I had mentioned the wrong variant of an aircraft engine in one of my stories (had it used in 1940, vs 1943, not that too many people would know the exact manufacturing dates of the HERCULES XIX vs that of the HERCULES XIII). Some readers can be very nitpicky about historical details, but an author can only spend so much time researching every little detail, if he wants to have some time left to write the book itself!
I second Howard there. You're responsibility is to write a good story. The level of historical accuracy and revelatory information is strictly up to you. When I read anything with historical facts I find interesting, I always look them up to see if they are true or fictionalized. That's my job as the consumer. As long as you make no claim to the contrary, I think the reader understands, or should understand, that you are presenting a work of fiction and it should be seen in that light.
I think any of us who write about time travel to the past have to cross this bridge. Whether it's a story like yours which centers on historical events or one that has a narrow interpersonal theme, they all have to deal with at least the context of a time which has actually existed.
The airplane example is a perfect illustration of where historical facts should not stray. Readers will nitpick that to death. IMO I believe a reader wants to know that you, the author, did the homework and researched your subject otherwise they will feel cheated, and their review will reflect their disappointment.So playing with a historical event is totally acceptable, but the author best explain why it was changed. Even the token "Nonsense, everyone keeps telling us the battle took place here when it actually took place there" will do.
#'s 22, 23, 24:Well, I'd agree that if you're using technical jargon it should be precise, yet this is a non issue for me given I don't go there, choosing instead to use little-known but accurate History as opposed to inventing it to fit my purpose.
Still, given that my use of the known Historical record will stand scrutiny, my narrative is always wide-open in terms of Time Travel.
I never beat people over the head; I draw them in & have simply used History to do so.
No problem.
Howard wrote: "#'s 22, 23, 24:
Well, I'd agree that if you're using technical jargon it should be precise, yet this is a non issue for me given I don't go there, choosing instead to use little-known but accurate..."
There is certainly nothing wrong with your approach, Howard. My point was that, however thorough you are in doing research, someone can always find a different historical source to contradict you (may or may not be right or accurate, as historians have a tendency to contradict each other on many things, including major historical points). In this specific case, the HERCULES XIX model was mentioned in the source I used. Since my story had a lot to do with importing technical knowledge from the future and thus improving the weapons used by the British in 1940, I had to go into that level of detail. I just wish that the reader who remarked on it paid as much attention to the story as a whole.
Well, I'd agree that if you're using technical jargon it should be precise, yet this is a non issue for me given I don't go there, choosing instead to use little-known but accurate..."
There is certainly nothing wrong with your approach, Howard. My point was that, however thorough you are in doing research, someone can always find a different historical source to contradict you (may or may not be right or accurate, as historians have a tendency to contradict each other on many things, including major historical points). In this specific case, the HERCULES XIX model was mentioned in the source I used. Since my story had a lot to do with importing technical knowledge from the future and thus improving the weapons used by the British in 1940, I had to go into that level of detail. I just wish that the reader who remarked on it paid as much attention to the story as a whole.
W says that playing with historical events is totally acceptable. "Totally" might be an overstatement. Readers love the historical detail in a fiction novel. I just published a time travel historical adventure entitled Lorenzo's Daggers, set partially in Renaissance Italy. The people who have read my novel tell me they loved the many historical details in and around which my characters interact. That part of the novel is as important to them as the adventure, suspense or time travel aspects of the book. I think the readers would be very upset (or at least disappointed) if the historical facts were clearly false or strayed too far from reality. So what does this all mean? I think perhaps it means that as writers we must be respectful of the readers sensibilities. For example, it may be okay to telescope the dates of historical events if those events are far distant. But it would not be okay to depict D-Day as being only a few months after the Pearl Harbor attack. Similarly, I think it is okay to depict real historical characters interacting with each other your fictional characters. I think readers understand that they are reading fiction. But having George Washington sit down to dinner with King George (unless what you were writing was clearly farce) would probably not be acceptable. Working out hard and fast rules for all this is impossible. But we must be sensitive to the readers expectations in reading historical fiction. Does any of this make sense?
Michel #26:Again, nothing wrong with that approach, I just don't employ it in my Epic Fables.
Ron #27:
Unexpected pairings or circumstances are fine with me if the context is properly laid & my readers should always leave their expectations behind, given they won't apply.
Our old moderator Tej once obsessively checked the facts in my 2nd Epic Fable only to find them sound, but he also advised wearing a seat belt when reading my stuff.
I'd agree.
Here's the review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
It certainly all depends on the story you're writing. Done well, any "unexpected pairing or circumstance" could work.
Griffin #31 states: 'we never get anything real in fiction'Griffin, well said; see #21.
And Ron #30:
As for unexpected circumstance, see my next post, a short story from my newest book of Epic Fables which demonstrates how I handle a specific occurrence in Time but also much more, for it not only deals with an historic human paradigm shift but also touches on ideas covered in the stories surrounding it, thus providing a natural flow to the overall narrative.
In other words, it's not about the facts but how you employ them.
And read the post following also, for context.
The Adroit Advantage TakerOr
The History of Turning Things Around
---------------
There once was a little man whose nearest neighbor was very clever. This neighbor had learned to split trees along the grain, a neat trick considering there were no metal tools. He used wooden wedges pounded by wooden mallets.
If that weren’t enough, he’d learned to join the planks he split. He somehow notched the ends to interlock, as the fingers of your hands could. At last, employing judicious use of rawhide strips, he then invented the storage box.
This opened up lots of possibilities. Thin boxes with a strap made a strong shoulder-held carrying case while thicker boxes could be dragged, again using straps. Dogs could pull a good load this way, or people if one didn’t have a dog.
But the clever man’s neighbor owned a nice ox, and it was always in high demand to pull the plow of his fellow farmers. He was lucky he’d inherited it from his mother’s brother, someone he’d never met. This uncle was from a distant land whose people had first tamed the massive, but now docile beasts of burden.
Years before, his mother as just a child had been taken in war, but that conflict had long ago been resolved and the unknown uncle had held no other heirs.
The hereditary ox was a marvel for, although their use was known, they were scarce and therefore hard to come by. The little man’s animal was the first, and so far, the only one in the area. This rendered it a most valuable commodity.
The man’s clever neighbor had made for him a big box for his ox to pull, and the large bovine could drag much with it, also a service of high demand. Yet at some point, the bottom planks of the box would always break apart under the strain. His neighbor had given him many replacements, but they broke, also.
Next he’d tried strapping hides to the bottom of the box, but while helping some, this action had failed to alleviate the problem.
This current state of affairs would soon change though, and all because of him. After much consideration, the little man now thought he knew how to remedy the situation, and it would be easy. Yes, he was very clever too, or so he thought.
Always a heavy thinker, the diminutive man, who was leading his ox that was pulling the box, came to a brook. It was hot out. He stopped to water himself and his beast, and they drank deeply.
“Are you hungry, my friend?” asked a nearby voice.
Both the ox and his startled owner looked to a tall stranger, who sat holding a large apple on the opposite bank of the gentle stream. Then the oddly dressed man held up a sack made of stitched animal skins. It was lumpy and heavy looking.
“I’ve aplenty,” he said with a smile. “They’re very sweet. Your ox would think so, too.”
At this time, tasty apples were hard to come by, for not all such trees created palatable fruit. Yet, planting the seeds of those that did never produced an identical crop, instead just growing many variants. And, the knowledge of grafting vegetation, the only way to assure a standardized yield, would remain hidden for eons.
So, a while later the men sat side by side with their feet in the cool water, each one savoring an apple. The ox had already eaten three in rapid succession. Now it was more than content to stand in the brook and slowly chew his juicy cud.
The little man was explaining his big idea to the stranger and, indeed it was a simple one. Why not attach limbs to the bottom of the box? These limbs, he pointed out, would run the length of the structure, and thus keep it off the ground.
This, he was confident, would be a great improvement changing everything. The limbs would then drag the ground, not the ground on the box. What could be easier?
Yet the stranger acted as if he didn’t understand, making a face and shaking his head. Of course, he did understand. He understood many things, and most were concepts the little man beside him would never know, or even know of.
This stranger was a stranger in more ways than one for, unknown to his companion, he was in fact a time traveler currently occupied with a critical mission.
He picked up a flat rock and handed it to the little man. Then reaching about, he picked up two short, nearly straight sticks. These he handed over, also.
“Show me,” he requested.
The little man placed the sticks parallel on the ground between them. Then he put the rock atop them. Next he demonstrated, by sliding the rock over the twigs.
“Problem eliminated,” he pronounced, pleased with himself.
“This is good,” the stranger agreed. But then, after taking a bite of his apple, he added, “I see another way, though. It’s a much better way of pulling things.”
“How? he was asked.
The determined time traveler took hold of the rock. Instead of sliding it over the sticks as his companion had done, he moved it the other way. He pushed it against the twigs, which now both twirled neatly underneath it.
“You’d use logs,” he advised. “You and your helper just need to find some way to attach them. Is this not a better solution?”
Making the connection, the little man agreed, and said so.
He soon hurried off most anxious to try out this novel idea, naturally to be claimed as his own innovation. His clever friend, he knew, would somehow work out any complicated details. So, he pulled on his ox that pulled the box.
The contented stranger, still eating his apple, watched them go.
Just to followup:I write Epic Fables; simple stories that hold a higher meaning.
#32 is short, only 2 pages on my machine, also unassuming with, I'd hope, a natural flow containing a beginning, a middle and an end; a Fable.
But beyond that it's Epic in nature, for it deals with big things in human History; not only farming itself but the rise of agriculture in general & it mentions domesticated animals (in this case dogs & oxen) & also touches on the beginnings of commerce, war & common law in evolving societies, which are all singular concepts that I cover elsewhere in the book.
As well, always trying to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, I consistantly use Myth in my Epic Fables & do so here by employing an apple, an object ripe in human mythology unconstrained by time or place; already universally applied, that is.
This literary device, by the by, is ever conducive to both allegory & metaphor.
Another such device is used in the multiple title, each a play on words, but doubly so given the first is known only by context to the other stories in the collection & every short story in the compilation also employs this added twist.
All of this nicely plays into the overall theme of the book, for each chapter therein deals with human beings making choices that lead to new connections (unexpected pairings) & this simple concept is one highly covered by all of my Epic Fables concerning the elusive Elastic Limit of Time.
Of course, the 'proof is in the pudding' as I've said, with the real question remaining is it any good?
I leave that up for others to decide; just wear a seat belt, as Tej said.
Hope this clears things up.
Howard wrote: "In other words, it's not about the facts but how you employ them...."Who's to say this "Turning Around" episode didn't happen exactly as you wrote it? OK, it's extremely unlikely, but the possibility of such reasoning and implementation is certainly based in history, and readers recognize that and appreciate.
Historical research teaches us the facts, but also what we DON'T know, golden opportunities for fiction writers. Although, as Ron pointed out, having George Washington sit down to dinner with King George might take some extra care (and writerly courage).
Paul #35:Well Paul, three chapters in the new book do have unlikely supper guests -- Dinner with the Doge, Clash of the Redheads & Reversing Gravity -- but they are all longer stories so for brevity I went with Turning Things Around.
But any chapter included would suffice for the discussion at hand.
King George & Washington are both mentioned in the book by the way, but they don't share dinner.
Just saying
Time Travel
Books mentioned in this topic
Codename: Athena (other topics)Hide in Time (other topics)
My Epic Fables on the Elastic Limit of Time employ true History, and the situations described therein are all accurately portrayed.
Here’s a partial list to demonstrate (the book titles are in caps), and any questions posted will be answered in this thread, thanks:
GENERAL PREHISTORY:
Neolithic (Ancient Humans): BEYOND, chapters 1, 3; TALES, Part Three (chapters 9, 10, 11, 12)
Early Human Society Forms: BEYOND, chapter 1, 2, 4, 5; TALES chapters 10, 11, 12
Religious Belief Codified: BEYOND, chapters 2, 5, 10; PIERCING, chapter 5
Rise of Agriculture: BEYOND, chapters 2, 5; TALES, chapter 11
Early Commerce: BEYOND, chapters 2 & 5; TALES, chapters 9, 10, 11
Discovery of the Wheel: TALES, chapter 10
Written Language Begins: TALES, chapter 9
ANCIENT HISTORY:
Language as Symbols: PIERCING Part Two (chapters 4, 5, 6); TALES, chapters 6, 9
Archimedes of Syracuse (Higher Mathematics, Scientifically Applied Warfare): TALES, chapter 8
Julius Caesar vs. Pompey the Great (Rise of Empires): PIERCING, Part One (chapters 1, 2, 3)
MIDDLE AGES:
Henry VIII (Age of Modern Sailing Ships, Onset of Science), TALES, chapter 7
Politics of Elizabethan England: PIERCING, Part Two (chapters 4, 5, 6)
Christopher Marlowe, William Shakespeare (Classical Literature Established for the Masses): PIERCING, Part Two (chapters 4, 5, 6)
EARLY MODERN:
Robert Schumann, Johannes Brahms, Felix Mendelssohn & others (Classical Music Rises to the Fore): PIERCING, Part Three (chapters 7, 8, 9)
Thomas Jefferson (Age of Fossils, Modern Higher Education Established): TALES, chapter 6
MODERN HISTORY:
Albert Einstein (Science Accepted as an Established Discipline): TALES, chapter 5
History of Commerce: BEYOND, chapters 2, 4; TALES, chapter 9, 11
EXPLORING HUMAN CONCEPTS:
Good and Evil: BEYOND
Business Run Amuck: PIERCING
Evolving Human Society: TALES, Parts Two and Three (chapters 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
TIME TRAVEL EXPLAINED:
Theory and Hardware Needed: BEYOND, chapters 7, 8, 9; PIERCING, chapters 9, 10, 11, 12; TALES, chapters 2, 3, 4
Paradox Avoided: TALES, chapter 2
Loops in Time: BEYOND, chapters 10, 11, 12; PIERCING, Part One (chapters 1, 2, 3, 4); TALES, chapter 2
Alternate Timelines: BEYOND, all chapters; PIERCING, chapter 12; TALES, chapters 2, 3