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Brexit - ciao Britain? She doesn't go anywhere
Yeah, coronation looks like an anachronism, but most (?) Brits love tradition, like Yankees - guns :)
If you are going to have a monarch, you have ot have a coronation, and while the Brits love tradition, said tradition brings in a lot of tourist dosh so from a cash point of view it is very much worth it.The so-called republican support is, as expected, vocal here, but it is hardly gaining much ground. I think for once i am actually with the majority - much better to have a king over there than have politicians pratting around here wanting to be President and costing real money.
Philip wrote: "Meanwhile coronation is failing to inspire in this household. Especially after statements stating that Camilla would not be crowned queen only for her to be crowned."As I understand it, that was a misunderstanding. They thought she had said "Never", when she had actually said, "Over my dead body!"
J. wrote: "Philip wrote: "Meanwhile coronation is failing to inspire in this household. Especially after statements stating that Camilla would not be crowned queen only for her to be crowned."As I understan..."
Yes, and the King has got his way or done what Camilla told him to do.
Horse 🐎 carriage looks refreshingly green these days
The whole thing looked a bit weird with all those supposedly serious people playing with historical artifacts, but I imagine some might've found the ceremony moving or inspiring
Nik, one way of looking at it is they are demonstrating they hold the record for the slowest and most convoluted procedure for putting on a hat.
Ian wrote: "Nik, one way of looking at it is they are demonstrating they hold the record for the slowest and most convoluted procedure for putting on a hat."Let him have his moment. He's a seventy-four year old man who has been beholden to his mother for his entire life. She picked his career path. She decided if he would be allowed to wed this woman or that. She set his daily calendar. She even decided in which house he could live.
He has what, ten maybe twenty years left to live? And that entire span will be spent being compared to his mother. Heck, the posh presenters at his BBC spent a good part of this past week comparing his big day to his mother's.
I pity him. He has never known true hardship. But neither has he been his own man. In the end he'll only be a historical footnote between Queen Elizabeth II and either his son or a British Republic. Just one more forgettable name on that aggravatingly long Kings List which British school children are forced to memorize, and which they quickly forget as adults.
But I'm just an uncouth American, so take that with a grain of salt.
Being born picked his life-path. It is true he has no real freedom to do anything. Right now, short of abdicating, he does all those ceremonial jobs that those who can do things prefer not to.Britain and the Commonwealth are effectively representative republics. When the king has no power it is hardly a monarchic government. Charles is effectively another Edward VII.
Papaphilly wrote: "Yes idiot younger sons...."That makes two things. Maybe this could be the start of a terrible friendship.
I'm going to go public on something I've kept between close family and friends until now. It's a big admission but I've got to come out and say it...
While I voted for Brexit in good faith at the time, I now regret it. If there was another referendum now, I would vote rejoin.
If I'd been with this group longer, you'd realise this is a massive u-turn for me. It would be like Papaphilly becoming anti vax or Ian shouting Slava Ukraini. I've been a hard-core leaver since the Maastricht Treaty debate, almost 30 years' ago.
Reason for u turn is after 3 1/2 years of Brexit, it's clear that our politicians and civil servants don't have the appetite or ability to find Britain a new role in the world. We are either joined at the hip with the US or EU - there appears no other choice.
Perhaps the Remainers were right - as far back as Suez probably shows that we don't have the international clout anymore to do anything differently.
So to the choice...
If the US was full of Js it would be an easy one. But it's not. Another term of Biden is looming and all the anti-conservative, revisionist nonsense is going to get ramped up even further. Even if the Republicans win, the woke tide in the outer areas of the Anglosphere appears unstoppable. And what happens over there, always finds its way here.
In Europe, however, conservatives are enjoying huge electoral success. Politicians like Orban and Meloni are people we could do business with to safeguard our traditional values. Europeans seem to respect these values more than anglos. And we'd be much stronger at safeguarding these values if we worked together.
Do a u turn and eat humble pie or keep digging ourselves into a hole? I'll have a large helping of humble pie please :)
While I voted for Brexit in good faith at the time, I now regret it. If there was another referendum now, I would vote rejoin.
If I'd been with this group longer, you'd realise this is a massive u-turn for me. It would be like Papaphilly becoming anti vax or Ian shouting Slava Ukraini. I've been a hard-core leaver since the Maastricht Treaty debate, almost 30 years' ago.
Reason for u turn is after 3 1/2 years of Brexit, it's clear that our politicians and civil servants don't have the appetite or ability to find Britain a new role in the world. We are either joined at the hip with the US or EU - there appears no other choice.
Perhaps the Remainers were right - as far back as Suez probably shows that we don't have the international clout anymore to do anything differently.
So to the choice...
If the US was full of Js it would be an easy one. But it's not. Another term of Biden is looming and all the anti-conservative, revisionist nonsense is going to get ramped up even further. Even if the Republicans win, the woke tide in the outer areas of the Anglosphere appears unstoppable. And what happens over there, always finds its way here.
In Europe, however, conservatives are enjoying huge electoral success. Politicians like Orban and Meloni are people we could do business with to safeguard our traditional values. Europeans seem to respect these values more than anglos. And we'd be much stronger at safeguarding these values if we worked together.
Do a u turn and eat humble pie or keep digging ourselves into a hole? I'll have a large helping of humble pie please :)
I guess if you share it here then you want to hear some feedback/input even if it's from a remote observer. While I understand the sentiment, 3.5 years is too short a span to judge whether it turns out negative or positive. For better or worse, you've paid a huge price for this move and it hasn't played out, not even half of it. Looking at UK's recent history: one would say it suffered the greatest demise of a century, losing all those assets: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi... , another would say it's a transcendence letting those who don't want go and feel Ok about it.
Many want clout, national idea, pride (not that one) , but how to achieve it you'd need to reinvent yourselves or maybe learn to be happy without clout, like maybe Slovaks or Finns do. Who remembers that Uruguay was once a football powerhouse? :)
I'm not that sure about United States of Europe's bright future. It too is bogged in brewing internal conflicts. Not sure, you'd be better inside than outside.
If you look possible unions - an axis of UK, Poland, Ukraine looks promising, as the countries are on the same pages more often than not. Or northern/Baltic format - UK, Scandi, Baltics (I just finished watching Vikings Valhala with a Northern Empire making an impression :)).
The current leaders are not the ones that were few generations ago, who needed to deal with wars and fundamental issues. These are small fry - dealing with paraphernalia - a dollar here, a dollar there, but maybe the war will be a wake up call.
You need someone to make Britain Great again :)
Using force seems kinda passe, but returned to the scenery big time, ideology was pretty much substituted by moneymaking, rock-n-roll - already invented, in space - you are not among the leaders. You still have banking, insurance, gold fix and maybe some hidden levers of once most influential dynasties in the world and kingship :).
Not the worst springboard into the future :)
Tbh, Nik, the post was more just to get it off my chest but thanks for fascinating reply.
Despite our differences of opinion on causes of Ukraine conflict, I'm in no way attached to Russia, and we're certainly not flavour of the month over there. Let's look forwards not backwards....
A Ukraine, UK, Poland alliance sounds very exciting. I'd never considered it before. Ukraine's natural resources and the UK's banking system. Each country's military prowess (although the wokerati are doing their best to downgrade our own standards). Poles v much remind me of old school Brits. We're cut from the same kind of cloth.
With all those weapons the Americans have given you, we could be a global powerhouse! A close alliance of independent nation states, with common values.
No batch of politicians lasts forever. Perhaps this changing world will see a new group of exciting visionaries emerge and turn this scenario into reality?
Despite our differences of opinion on causes of Ukraine conflict, I'm in no way attached to Russia, and we're certainly not flavour of the month over there. Let's look forwards not backwards....
A Ukraine, UK, Poland alliance sounds very exciting. I'd never considered it before. Ukraine's natural resources and the UK's banking system. Each country's military prowess (although the wokerati are doing their best to downgrade our own standards). Poles v much remind me of old school Brits. We're cut from the same kind of cloth.
With all those weapons the Americans have given you, we could be a global powerhouse! A close alliance of independent nation states, with common values.
No batch of politicians lasts forever. Perhaps this changing world will see a new group of exciting visionaries emerge and turn this scenario into reality?
Oh, and I knew Uruguay had won 2 World Cups, including the 1st one.
Nice one :)
Nice one :)
Is a turnabout an example how one visit to Paris can change steadfast beliefs? :)
Beau wrote: "I'm going to go public on something I've kept between close family and friends until now. It's a big admission but I've got to come out and say it...While I voted for Brexit in good faith at the ..."
Actually, the UK has "gone somewhere". It has just joined the trans Pacific partnership, which is a rather large economic zone. And the UK will not have to make the huge payments it made to the EU.
One might ask, are Brits geographically challenged to think they are in the Pacific, but there we have it. My view is the economic opportunities will exceed those of the EU. but what do i know?
Beau wrote: "I'm going to go public on something I've kept between close family and friends until now. It's a big admission but I've got to come out and say it...While I voted for Brexit in good faith at the ..."
Regret is a fool's game. Before you get misty eyed over European culture and law, let Giogia Meloni remind you what lies behind those velvet curtains.
https://youtu.be/q-C8ogD6E8c
I've been feeling Brexit regret for a while, Nik. It wasn't due to a trip onto the continent, although I have been looking into a trip to Brussels some time soon and plan on singing Ode to Joy on the Eurostar :) I do like the sound of the UK, Ukraine, Poland alliance too. There could be a place for Hungary too.
Boris tainted Brexit for me, and Nigel seems more interested in Trump than what's going on over here. The former was always a chancer and the latter is becoming a bit of a let down.
Ian, for me, Brexit was never about just trade.
Boris tainted Brexit for me, and Nigel seems more interested in Trump than what's going on over here. The former was always a chancer and the latter is becoming a bit of a let down.
Ian, for me, Brexit was never about just trade.
Nor should it be, Beau, but it occurred to me that the UK can't go much further than to the Pacific. J's link is a big wake-up regarding what else is going on.
I know you're right about regret being a fool's game, J. If I was a politician who'd campaigned for Brexit for 25 years + and changed my mind once it happened, I'd look a right mug. But the luxury of being just a member of the public is that I can voice my changing thoughts more freely. I'll just pretend I was mislead, or something ;)
I watched the Meloni clips. She's a firebrand. A little bit too confrontational for my liking but I agree with the underlying sentiments.
Let's face it tho, this self hatred of our old values, and all the crazy wazy thought processes that come with it are being driven by the Anglosphere, and there seems to be more resistance to it on mainland Europe.
Also, I think a bit of karma has come my way after mocking people suffering with Trump Derangement Syndrome. I am now diagnosing myself as having Biden Derangement Syndrome, and just want to get as far away from him as possible. The thought of being his lapdog is too much to bear.
I watched the Meloni clips. She's a firebrand. A little bit too confrontational for my liking but I agree with the underlying sentiments.
Let's face it tho, this self hatred of our old values, and all the crazy wazy thought processes that come with it are being driven by the Anglosphere, and there seems to be more resistance to it on mainland Europe.
Also, I think a bit of karma has come my way after mocking people suffering with Trump Derangement Syndrome. I am now diagnosing myself as having Biden Derangement Syndrome, and just want to get as far away from him as possible. The thought of being his lapdog is too much to bear.
Following Beau's comment on the The Trump Card thread ref Brexit.It has been very poorly managed right from the start even Cameron's calling of referendum and the EUs response.
Tory infighting and ineffectual formal government opposition didn't help.
Johnson road in on a wave of just get the damn thing done. He did, badly and then COVID. More self-inflicted harm and now the Conservative will probably face a Blair like removal from power.
Starmer has said no to rejoin but that doesn't mean no to the single market i.e. Norway or Switzerland relationship. Even the current incompetents have slipped towards that path rejoining the scientific research group.
Turning to Beau's comment on populism and the mistakes. At the moment economic peril is the only thought "The economy stupid" was a great slogan but it still applies.
Governments appoint yes men/women to support their power. The current executive in the UK is full of them. Meanwhile incompetence in the civil service can't be dealt with because its exceeded everyday by ministers who know nothing about their briefs. Grant Schapps as Defence minister is as bad as some pacifist labourite.
The education and other building mess is a shambles of decades of maladministration as is the state of railways and water. Far too much money disappeared off-shore to Conservative donors.
The EU won't fix that and labour cannot afford to renationalise. So we'll wobble on. The left of labour from Dep leader down are waiting for their chance. The right of the Conservatives are happily giving them it.
The EU smiles and waits. They'll extract a heavy price for a return.
I view Cameron as a card player, who placed a bet he couldn't afford to cover if he lost.
Brexit couldn't be made good because the establishment, consisting of senior politicians and civil servants, never supported it and have neither the desire nor capability to make it work.
Boris swung the referendum and 'got it done' but he was never a true Brexiteer like Nigel or the ERG. He was a late comer - a chancer, who never actually wanted it but thought that aligning himself with Eurosceptics would make him a future leader. He was right on that but his premiership was a letdown, regardless of where on the political spectrum one stands.
I was probably ready to change sides shortly after the referendum. I've always loved Europe, just not the EU as an institution. Finding myself aligned to people like Michael Howard, who talked about sending gunboats to Gibraltar, horrified me, as did having lazy f***ers like David Davis negotiating with our European friends holding blank pieces of paper, because he thought they would simply roll over on everything. FFS, these people are supposed to be PROFESSIONAL politicians!
What kept me aligned with Brexiteers post 2016, until recently, were the UK Remoaners, who seemed to think calling us thick, ignorant racists would win us over. Contrast that with mainland Europeans, who were perfectly charming, and very convincing, in their arguments for us to think again.
From Suez to Truss, I think it's now clear that we can't go anything alone. Do we become a complete American puppet or return to the EU?
I love Americans generally, and admire the American Dream, but there's some truly warped stuff coming from over there right now. The Anglosphere is dying. Let's get back into the EU, find likeminded European allies, and try and change it for the better from within. Then, together we are stronger.
Brexit couldn't be made good because the establishment, consisting of senior politicians and civil servants, never supported it and have neither the desire nor capability to make it work.
Boris swung the referendum and 'got it done' but he was never a true Brexiteer like Nigel or the ERG. He was a late comer - a chancer, who never actually wanted it but thought that aligning himself with Eurosceptics would make him a future leader. He was right on that but his premiership was a letdown, regardless of where on the political spectrum one stands.
I was probably ready to change sides shortly after the referendum. I've always loved Europe, just not the EU as an institution. Finding myself aligned to people like Michael Howard, who talked about sending gunboats to Gibraltar, horrified me, as did having lazy f***ers like David Davis negotiating with our European friends holding blank pieces of paper, because he thought they would simply roll over on everything. FFS, these people are supposed to be PROFESSIONAL politicians!
What kept me aligned with Brexiteers post 2016, until recently, were the UK Remoaners, who seemed to think calling us thick, ignorant racists would win us over. Contrast that with mainland Europeans, who were perfectly charming, and very convincing, in their arguments for us to think again.
From Suez to Truss, I think it's now clear that we can't go anything alone. Do we become a complete American puppet or return to the EU?
I love Americans generally, and admire the American Dream, but there's some truly warped stuff coming from over there right now. The Anglosphere is dying. Let's get back into the EU, find likeminded European allies, and try and change it for the better from within. Then, together we are stronger.
My personal reasons for supporting Brexit were because of the EU hierarchy not anti-European. I am half Dutch on my mothers side. I still have relatives in the Netherlands as well as friend living in Spain and France.I think the EU massively failed to persuade people like me of the benefits. There was too much corruption and nepotism whilst the EU Parliament was so undemocratic it was laughable. Much Proportional Representation was list based. The real power was in the Commission chosen and elected by the elite. Unfortunately that hasn't changed.
If we think the UK's Parliament is unrepresentative then the EU makes us look brilliant.
I don't want to be anyone's puppet and even outside the EU we are the 6th or 7th largest economy by GDP. Unfortunately that GDP is mostly held by a small elite. It does not translate to workers pay or conditions. Levelling up is a joke and virtually no money is spent. It's all gone to friends of cabinet members or senior civil servants. Subsidies for the rail networks haven't gone to improve services. instead they have gone overseas which is why there is no money to pay off rail workers. (Those unions are also playing their own games.)
I don't have many answers. Perhaps rejoining is all that is left but that will mean the Euro and handing control to the German banks whilst paying for new roads in Portugal
Very interesting post, Philip. I agree with all your points.
We have what should be a great Parliament. The mother of all parliaments. The idea of decisions being purely made in this elected parliament, by approachable representatives of sensibly-sized constituencies was intoxicating to me. It's why I became a Brexiteer.
However, the people in Parliament might be of indifferent quality but even if they were the best, could we run an independent course?
We know - past US presidents have said and acted to prove it - that if a country goes against their agenda, they will tank that country's economy. On our own, outside the EU, we're vulnerable. We got a little reminder during the reign of Truss.
Where Remain went wrong in the referendum was to use 'project fear'. People had had enough of those tactics by then and were turned off by them. Remain should've focused on the positives of membership. Then, they would probably have won.
You're right the structure of the EU is wrong but the only way to change it is from within. Some of the Central and Eastern European members would be useful allies in achieving this.
Still, we are where we are. Seemingly, drifting aimlessly into decline. I feel rejoin will gather momentum in the latter part of the next parliament. Either that or we'll be on our way to becoming the 51st state. Under no circumstances do I want the latter to happen.
We have what should be a great Parliament. The mother of all parliaments. The idea of decisions being purely made in this elected parliament, by approachable representatives of sensibly-sized constituencies was intoxicating to me. It's why I became a Brexiteer.
However, the people in Parliament might be of indifferent quality but even if they were the best, could we run an independent course?
We know - past US presidents have said and acted to prove it - that if a country goes against their agenda, they will tank that country's economy. On our own, outside the EU, we're vulnerable. We got a little reminder during the reign of Truss.
Where Remain went wrong in the referendum was to use 'project fear'. People had had enough of those tactics by then and were turned off by them. Remain should've focused on the positives of membership. Then, they would probably have won.
You're right the structure of the EU is wrong but the only way to change it is from within. Some of the Central and Eastern European members would be useful allies in achieving this.
Still, we are where we are. Seemingly, drifting aimlessly into decline. I feel rejoin will gather momentum in the latter part of the next parliament. Either that or we'll be on our way to becoming the 51st state. Under no circumstances do I want the latter to happen.
Ha ha, Philip, just imagine your face if we were the 51st state and Trump was President, or mine if it was Biden, then Harris.
I'd emigrate to France and encourage wider family to come with me.
I'd emigrate to France and encourage wider family to come with me.
It might happen. I was wrong about Trump first time. He may yet get through or block all his criminal and civil cases and any that may yet arise. As long as his supporters of newly financed hedge funds, keep paying his legal bills for multiple legal teams that change frequently (that looks like a tactic) he may be able to delay. Judges seem to be getting wise to the tactic, but who knows. He will appeal every case too, if he can.
As for Brexit, I just don't know. I didn't think the vote would exit therefore mu vote was part protest. How do I protest now?
A Prime Minister who when he was Chancellor still held a Green card processing his wish to live and work in America married to a billionaire tax avoider. A man who states he didn't cut education funding for new builds when he did just that. He claims 50 a year but only 4 last year. He's following the Trump path of alternate facts even more than Johnson. Of course he supported Johnson.
Beau will recall the expenses scandal in the UK - we should have put all 650 in prison at the time. Even those that didn't take money but ignored those that did. That includes all the Sinn Fein ones who have been elected but never taken a seat but still taken all the money.
many of the current lot should be in Prison not sitting on a commons bench.
I think a lot of people voted Brexit as a protest. I know many who did to give Cameron a bloody nose. It worked, but at what cost?
Horse play aside, I accept that you know far more about the Trump situation than I do. You are doing a very comprehensive job in bringing his antics to our attention. I'm in a bit of a quandary because while I don't approve of him, I approve of the other side even less. This leads to moments of devilment when I want him to succeed. But, deep down, I know it wouldn't be for the best.
Ah, the expenses scandal! A recent example of when our investigative press/ media can be the best in the world. I know you won't agree with this, but the absence of that level of scrutiny during covid really disappointed me. There were so many questions I wanted answered - not those tame WhatsApp messages, the real questions - but The Telegraph, Guardian et al were missing in action. Anyway, I'm not sure any of us have the appetite to rejuvenate that thread to 2020-2 levels :)
Brexit is more interesting. It's entered a new phase now but I don't think the issue is over.
Horse play aside, I accept that you know far more about the Trump situation than I do. You are doing a very comprehensive job in bringing his antics to our attention. I'm in a bit of a quandary because while I don't approve of him, I approve of the other side even less. This leads to moments of devilment when I want him to succeed. But, deep down, I know it wouldn't be for the best.
Ah, the expenses scandal! A recent example of when our investigative press/ media can be the best in the world. I know you won't agree with this, but the absence of that level of scrutiny during covid really disappointed me. There were so many questions I wanted answered - not those tame WhatsApp messages, the real questions - but The Telegraph, Guardian et al were missing in action. Anyway, I'm not sure any of us have the appetite to rejuvenate that thread to 2020-2 levels :)
Brexit is more interesting. It's entered a new phase now but I don't think the issue is over.
A couple of thoughts:First, it seems to me that the UK's best shot at a great independent future was when you first decided to do it. Obviously, that is when Brexit had the greatest popular support. Beyond the approval, you still had the most popular monarch in over a century upon the throne. Could there have been a better diplomat for bringing the Commonwealth into an alliance?
Second, before you start making decisions about the future of your islands, you need to ask yourselves a very important question. What is the UK's value add?
In any supply chain you have the sources of raw materials which feed into refiners, fabricators, manufacturers, markets, and at every point transportation. Each point after the raw material adds value. To give a relevant example, if you still had steel foundries, and had worked out a deal with Australia, cheap Australian iron ore could have become more valuable British steel, hence a value add.
So what are the British value adds?
J. wrote: "A couple of thoughts:First, it seems to me that the UK's best shot at a great independent future was when you first decided to do it. Obviously, that is when Brexit had the greatest popular suppo..."
Warm beer and a sense of humour and... OK we'll settle down to our post imperial diminished status.
J, that was exactly what I hoped for. I can only presume the Commonwealth scenario is impractical or the movers and shakers don't want it. All roads seem to point to EU or US.
Our strengths - banking, skilled in areas of high-end engineering and (maybe still) quality of military, although the last one isn't what it was. Looks like we're a leader in green energy too. Although I don't share the enthusiasm for the rush to net zero, I welcome this as it makes sound long-term strategic sense.
I gather Rishi has also been pimping us to Biden as some sort of testing ground for AI, so you'll be able to watch robots chasing us round with carving knives on the tele before deciding on whether you want to go down that route too.
Our strengths - banking, skilled in areas of high-end engineering and (maybe still) quality of military, although the last one isn't what it was. Looks like we're a leader in green energy too. Although I don't share the enthusiasm for the rush to net zero, I welcome this as it makes sound long-term strategic sense.
I gather Rishi has also been pimping us to Biden as some sort of testing ground for AI, so you'll be able to watch robots chasing us round with carving knives on the tele before deciding on whether you want to go down that route too.
Before you all want to return to Europe, note that Eastern Europe continues to be a huge financial hole for the EU. That was largely funded by Germany, and it was in Germany's interest to do this because it stopped the inevitable rise in value of the D-mark when the Euro could be kept low by the PIGS. But now with the price of energy going up, German heavy industry will become uneconomic for a totally different reason. So now, who bails out the eastern Europeans? Forget about the nice places you like visiting. Someone has to fork out very large sums of money and it is not going to be Germany. So if you want back into the EU, be prepared to pay, and pay, and pay.
J's point is something to think about: where is your value add?
Another point is if this is not working becuase of incompetent politicians and incompetent and uncooperative civil servants, the solution is simple - fire them.
At the moment, Beau's first venture was correct. The British financial markets are the UK's largest value add. Mercantile markets use contracts for delivery at preset prices to simultaneously capitalize commodity production and turn those commodities into negotiable instruments. Stock markets capitalize industry by generating even more negotiable instruments. And banks literally create money through fractional reserve banking. The London casino excels at all three. That's why I think Brexit was the right choice for the wrong reason.As big as British banks are, the Germans are as big and getting bigger. If the UK remained tied to the Eurozone, it would have only been a matter of time until the Germans absorbed the British banks. Once that happened, Britain would be a vassal state of the EU.
Britain needs to reinvent itself and seek alliances where it can play a leading role otherwise 50 years from now they can become an obscure country nobody cares to consider. Speaking that horribly accented English can still be an advantage of a sort
Ian, you can fire people but what is the point when those who will step in to replace them are the same? In the words of The Who, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. You reject both bosses and embrace populism (or some other alternative) and if that choice doesn't consist of a crook or nut job, the media and wider establishment will present them as being one anyway.
I haven't forgotten Nik's UK, Poland, Ukraine special alliance, but like the Commonwealth scenario, it requires too much imagination on the part of our leaders.
Therefore, it all comes back to EU vs US. As I said before, if the US was full of Js (and the other active American members), the choice would be easy. But it's not. Right across the Anglosphere, from Australasia to UK to North America, there are bad things happening. I feel there are more people in Europe who believe in small c conservative values (note the word small), which is why I hope our future lies with them.
I haven't forgotten Nik's UK, Poland, Ukraine special alliance, but like the Commonwealth scenario, it requires too much imagination on the part of our leaders.
Therefore, it all comes back to EU vs US. As I said before, if the US was full of Js (and the other active American members), the choice would be easy. But it's not. Right across the Anglosphere, from Australasia to UK to North America, there are bad things happening. I feel there are more people in Europe who believe in small c conservative values (note the word small), which is why I hope our future lies with them.
Nik's comment about the UK needing to reinvest itself and Beau's comments about the decline of the Anglosphere and the US in particular have a point of commonality.The British Empire was a thing because of two influences. First, being an island nation, Britain's future was always going to forged on the sea. Second, allowing the Industrial Revolution to run meant that the UK could have a huge value add on all of the trade brought in on the sea.
Admittedly, British manufacturing and naval prowess took a massive hit during the War. But mainland Europe took a bigger hit and has largely outstripped Great Britain in the modern era. I think the problem is that for the last eighty years the UK has followed a course of Socialism which has dismantled her industry, saddled her with gluttonous entitlement programs, and stripped many of her citizens of a sense of personal responsibility.
When Beau attributes various wokeries to the USA, he is misunderstanding the dynamics at work. Demographically, the USA was a rural nation until late in the twentieth century. Consequently, our politics routinely tracked more conservative than our British cousins. The driving forces of the USA's current socialist spasms are left-wing intelligentsia and clout chasing wannabes who all esteem European Socialism.
At the end of WW II, there were a couple of years of misery for Germany, then there was Marshall aid. The US effectively helped Europe rebuild. At the same time British industry was busy doing the wrong things, while Britain got the bill for repaying all the loans it had taken out. Britain was nearly bankrupt, and unfortunately, all the talk about having beaten the Germans meant the working class thought they deserved the rewards that should flow.Basically, Britain had to sell out just about everything that was worth selling. I recall when I was in Australia I drove into a small town with only one garage - for British Motor Corp. I had blown a bottom hose on my Datsun 1600 - one of the most successful at the time Japanese cars. It turned out a bottom hose for the standard Austin worked just as well. Austin had sold its design to the Japanese and persisted making the older less desirable car simply because it needed the money. Strictly speaking, Britain lost WW II. For much of the next 40 years or so it was busy closing down stuff, and Germany, starting from scratch again, became an "economic miracle". Fighting a prolonged war is not a good thing unoless you can afford it.
One could also claim that this was deliberate policy by US - i.e. painful loans to UK against Marshall aid to Germany and elsewhere.Post war did give us NHS (a huge public benefit and now a huge public cost) The Labour government also spent money nationalising everything in site and then demonstrating how useless politicians are at running anything, including the car industry.
The UK's wartime inventions and progress were thrown away from computing to jet engines.
Just today we've had announce a failure of the latest round of offshore wind bids. We currently operate the largest 4 in the world. This was despite warnings for months and a recent example in Ireland that the bid conditions wouldn't work. The Government pressed ahead anyway.
J, mixed economies, strong public services and safety nets for people who fall on hard times are positive things, and by no means incompatible with small c conservatism.
Wokery is not positive. It doesn't benefit society or help anyone. It's a cancer of the mind that destroys societies from within. The Anglosphere elites invented it, while remaining advocates of neo liberal economics.
That's because wokery is a desire to be seen to be doing good while not actually giving two hoots about those less fortunate than oneself. It's all about optics, which is why it invents crazy situations and grievances, without ever addressing the issues that really affect people.
It's given us the worst of both worlds. If Anglo wokes thought they were mimicking European culture, it shows they're fools.
I agree with Ian's and Philip's points about the post WW11 era. I also think Mrs Thatcher bears some responsibility for the current state of the nation's public services/ utilities. While I admired her stance on the Falklands and the image she cultivated abroad, her privatisations were effectively (as Macmillan pointed out) selling off the family silver.
I've visited most Western European countries and would have to say our current public services are the worst, combining both poor quality and high prices.
The only possible reason I can imagine economic migrants pass through the mainland on their way here is that the mainland don't shower them with free gifts. The Anglo wokes do, and yet we have a far bigger problem with homelessness and poverty. Crazy!
Wokery is not positive. It doesn't benefit society or help anyone. It's a cancer of the mind that destroys societies from within. The Anglosphere elites invented it, while remaining advocates of neo liberal economics.
That's because wokery is a desire to be seen to be doing good while not actually giving two hoots about those less fortunate than oneself. It's all about optics, which is why it invents crazy situations and grievances, without ever addressing the issues that really affect people.
It's given us the worst of both worlds. If Anglo wokes thought they were mimicking European culture, it shows they're fools.
I agree with Ian's and Philip's points about the post WW11 era. I also think Mrs Thatcher bears some responsibility for the current state of the nation's public services/ utilities. While I admired her stance on the Falklands and the image she cultivated abroad, her privatisations were effectively (as Macmillan pointed out) selling off the family silver.
I've visited most Western European countries and would have to say our current public services are the worst, combining both poor quality and high prices.
The only possible reason I can imagine economic migrants pass through the mainland on their way here is that the mainland don't shower them with free gifts. The Anglo wokes do, and yet we have a far bigger problem with homelessness and poverty. Crazy!
One of the most unfortunate aspects of the Falklands was it gave Thatcher the freedom to carry out a number of policies that were not exactly helpful. Equally, the post-war Labour government with its fit of nationalization managed to combine with Thatcher the worst of possible worlds. Nationalization in a "democracy" seldom works because the politicians have no idea how to make things work, but they can't keep their sticky fingers out of the operational aspects. However, there is no point in worrying about that now. What has to happen is that Britain pull itself together. It has a great educated workforce - they have to use that knowledge to improve their lot. The problem with reconstructing an economy is you cannot do it overnight, irrespective of politicians' "promises".
As to the UK's war debts to the USA:To begin, most of the support which the USA sent to Great Britain during the War fell under the Lend Lease Act. As such, we never expected to be repaid for that. To my knowledge, the only stuff which we took a final accounting of was military equipment still in inventory after the Armistice. That's why there are films of stuff being thrown overboard of Allied ships following the Armistice. If Davey Jones had it, it wasn't in inventory; just like every fired bullet, dropped bomb, and eaten sack of flour.
The bulk of the debt to the USA was incurred during reconstruction. At that point the UK borrowed about $4 billion at 2% apr fixed over fifty annual payments. It should be noted that during that entire period the US Federal Reserve's stated policy was to maintain a 2% per year rate of inflation, so in terms of US dollar value the UK was paying only what they borrowed. And during periods of excess inflation, the UK was getting a discount on their principal. The only real arguments were over exchange rates.
Ultimately, the USA and UK settled the debt in 2006, with the UK having paid around $7 billion towards the loan over more than fifty years. The loan went over term because over the years the UK asked for, and was granted, numerous deferrals. In short, you're complaining about a sweetheart loan.
J. wrote: "As to the UK's war debts to the USA:To begin, most of the support which the USA sent to Great Britain during the War fell under the Lend Lease Act. As such, we never expected to be repaid for tha..."
I wasn't denying lend lease as a loan, I was comparing with Marshall Plan give away (exaggerating again). Yes Germany had a tough time for a couple of years and East Germany for decades. UK didn't completely stop food rationing until 1954.
Philip wrote: "J. wrote: "As to the UK's war debts to the USA:To begin, most of the support which the USA sent to Great Britain during the War fell under the Lend Lease Act. As such, we never expected to be rep..."
Ian was also blaming the debt.
Let's look at British food rationing. The linked videos covers the average Brit's experience of it fairly well.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj...
Compared to the average continental, the British were eating well.
As was stated in the video series, rationing was about controlling for limited imports. During the War it was because of U-boats sinking ships. But after the war it was because of currency control. Simply put, the UK government didn't want pounds leaving the UK. If you can't easily spend British pounds outside of the UK, then it's pretty hard to import anything. So how much molasses gets produced in England?
Yes, I know they were fighting a trade deficit. But the best way to fight a trade deficit is with exports, like Range Rovers, Jaguars, etc. To do that they needed to secure funds to lend industry in order to rebuild. Wasn't that a large reason why the UK took out the cheap American loan?
Ian stated that the UK sold the design for his Datsun to Japan to pay off war debts. Is that true? Or was British Leyland so woefully mismanaged that they sold their future to their competition? Were the UK's problems because of others, or because of their own mismanagement?
Just to clarify, I did not mean to imply the British sold off the Dqatsun design to pay off war debts, biut I did mean to imply the company was nearly bankrupt and it had to sell off something. The problem Britain had was that its manufacturing industries had been busy making spitfires, tanks and the like. There had been no real domestic manufacturing. So it would take quite some time to reorganize. It is true the nationalizations that took place did not help much.As for Britain getting out of its bind by exporting, exporting to whom? The US was prosperous, but it was the most powerful manufacturing centre on the planet. Europe was devastated, as was much of Asia. As for food rationing, New Zealand had it for some time after the war because large amounts had to be exported elsewhere to people who were starving otherwise, and this did not earn big money because they couldn't pay for it either. The world was a mess at the time.
A further problem for British manufacturing was it still had to import a lot. It could not export cars, had it been possible to make them, because there was a huge shortage of rubber. I know that in NZ immediately after the war there was a real problem with tyre replacements. I suspect this was not so much a problem in the US because the abiity to pay higher prices meant the US would scoop up what was available.. This was not some masterful stroke by the US but merely supply and demand at work with the limited supply going to those who could pay more.
Ian wrote: "Just to clarify, I did not mean to imply the British sold off the Dqatsun design to pay off war debts, biut I did mean to imply the company was nearly bankrupt and it had to sell off something. The..."Just for the sake of argument let's ignore Canada, and grant that is completely valid for the 1940s. I'll even throw in the 1950s. Why didn't the UK hit the same wave as the Germans and Italians during the the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s?
World, Writing, Wealth
Books mentioned in this topic
Thirty Years from Now (other topics)Against the Double Blackmail: Refugees, Terror and Other Troubles with the Neighbours (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Nikolai Gogol (other topics)Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (other topics)
George Santayana (other topics)
Polls showing news that >60% of young want to rejoin EU while failing to mention that >60% of young voted to stay in
Meanwhile coronation is failing to inspire in this household. Especially after statements stating that Camilla would not be crowned queen only for her to be crowned.
Charles has very hard act to follow. 15 Countries have new monarch doesn't need coronation to confirm that, but polls suggest multiple will vote to go Republic.