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Readalong and Q&A with Andrew Barrett - The Third Rule
Betsy wrote: "Thank you, Andrew, for providing me and our Good Thriller readers with wonderful insights into your writing process and sharing your comprehensive, thoughtful explanations. They were invaluable !!..."
Sincere thanks, Betsy; you do say the most wonderful things – it’s very kind of you, and I do appreciate your sentiments very much. It’s been superb chatting with you, and I really hope we can do it again sometime.
Code 120. Out ;)
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Betsy wrote: "Andrew, I find your concept of The Third Rule intriguing and it would certainly appeal to many people who think that criminals sent to prisons get off very well with th..."Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Betsy wrote: "Andrew, I find your concept of The Third Rule intriguing and it would certainly appeal to many people who think that criminals sent to prisons get off very well with th..."
Hi Kirsten!
Access to guns here in the UK is strictly controlled. Of course that doesn’t mean there isn’t a glut of illegal weapons out there. In The Third Rule, I’ve amplified the problem somewhat (but not by much, I suspect) to create those figures I quoted. Gun crime over here is particularly despised, and I don’t think it would take too much of a rise in deaths for the public to cry out for radical action to be taken.
Here in Leeds, our gun crime is prolific among street gangs, and organised crime. And though I don’t specify a particular group of offenders, I guess they’re bad guys in The Third Rule too.
The death penalty is the central theme of the book. I was looking for something different that went before in the UK, and I was looking to implement very swift ‘justice’ so as to minimise costs. Some criminal trials go on and on for months, and cost millions. I think that part of reason they do go on for so long is because someone is making a good deal of cash out of them. I did some research in 2004 when I first began writing The Third Rule and was astonished that barristers earned somewhere in the region of £800 per hour. How on earth can that be justified! So, I aimed to cut costs, and I aimed to cut Legal Aid (now disbanded) so that people couldn’t take advantage of a lopsided system.
There were to be no long death row prisoners. Once they were found guilty, the evidence against them checked, then they were despatched in pretty quick time. And one aspect of the book that I got some applause for, was how it dealt with offenders and their cash. In TTR, offenders paid heavily for their defence, and if released back into society, they were still responsible for their legal fees, and must contribute to social funds to recompense those left out of pocket by criminal activity.
I should run for PM!
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Andrew wrote: "This made me smile wide, Betsy, because one of the aims for the book was that it should make people think about this. I tried to put forward points for and against capital punishment..."I forget now which country allows the victims or the victims’ family to choose the punishment. Perhaps there’s some merit in this?
For the two choices Eddie and Mick discussed within The Third Rule, kill them quickly or incarcerate them for long periods of time, neither has any more validity than the other – two sides of the same coin, really. Except is that coin ‘punishment’ or is it ‘retribution’?
All healthy food for thought
Dave wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Dave wrote: "Finished. And yes, the various threads--which seemed so disparate earlier in the book--came together nicely in the end. In any novel I'm looking for: is the writing good..."All music to my ears, Dave, thank you! :)
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "As you can see by my comments above, I *finally* started the book. WOW!!! I can tell you the scene in the school will not be forgotten soon.
I like that you have so many disparate threads and c..."
I remember one of my first readers said I should have ditched the school scene. I understood why they'd say that: it illustrated the need for the Rules, but it could have been told instead of shown, surely? Well, this was one of those pieces of advice I chose to ignore. I ignored it because I thought the school scene couldn't be 'told'; and it showed it in a way that would hopefully cause revulsion in the reader to the extent that they'd be welcoming the Rules too!
And oh what a breath of fresh air to hear that you like disparate threads! I've heard so very many people say how it confused them. Yet I suspect those people find the segmented opening to films easy to follow? Surely it's the same thing?
Anyway, it's wonderful to have you along, Kirsten :)
Andrew wrote: "Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Andrew wrote: "This made me smile wide, Betsy, because one of the aims for the book was that it should make people think about this. I tried to put..."Andrew, have you read A Clockwork Orange? I just finished that book for the first time and your thing about reimbursement reminded me of how Alex's property was all taken to pay the family of the person he killed.
There are place in the US where this happens: http://www.npr.org/2016/06/07/4810586...
Hello David,I finally finished the book this weekend!
It certainly has a noir feel to it - I'm not sure I really liked any of the main characters that much.
Which was your favourite character to write about and why?
Hi again. I think the reason I loved TTR so much was that it picked up the dichotomy in my own, and I suspect, many people's thinking. I don't agree with taking another life. It's two families grieving rather than one, because sadly, some people who choose to commit murder come from loving homes. Something goes wrong and, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right. However, it all changes focus if it happens to you or your family.There's also the feeling of terrible injustice if the old lady who is robbed with violence carries on struggling to pay bills while the thug who beat her up spends a 'holiday' in a comfortable cell with his own telly and three hot meals a day.
We all feel 'on the one hand' but 'on the other hand' about these things. There's probably no right answer but you came up from behind on these topics and your characters and scenes presented us with a great number of possibilities.
I'm a fan!
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Andrew wrote: "This made me smile wide, Betsy, because one of the aims for the book was that it should make people think about this...."Hey Kirsten. No but I have seen the film - weird!
Taking an offender's property as reimbursement to the victim or to the state is nothing new is it. I suppose though there will always be those who take it to the extreme - as in the New Mexico example.
I was hoping to illustrate that a new system like that employed over here, was designed to be as victim-friendly as possible with offender's money being paid into a pool whereby victim's possessions could be replaced, and where their elevated insurance premiums could be claimed back from. I wonder if there's actually any merit in this kind of thing in the real world?
The system in The Third Rule was also supposed to be harsh on the offender, treating them coldly in a conveyor-belt fashion while retaining that wonderful customer service we've all come to love, hehe.
Ann wrote: "Hello David,I finally finished the book this weekend!
It certainly has a noir feel to it - I'm not sure I really liked any of the main characters that much.
Which was your favourite character t..."
Hi Ann, I hope that you enjoyed the book overall, even though you’ll never be caught having lunch with any of the characters.
That’s a very good question, and one that’s caused me to pause and think a while. There are so many characters in this book that my auto-response of ‘Eddie Collins’ was challenged there slightly.
But only slightly. Yes, after careful consideration, I can confirm that I still enjoyed writing Eddie the most out of the entire ensemble. And the reason I enjoyed writing him so much I suppose is because he’s about as close to me personally as you can get. I’ve said elsewhere, that Eddie is a caricature of myself, and that’s still true. Even though I wouldn’t grab a victim of burglary by the throat, as Eddie did, I’ve come frighteningly close on more than one occasion.
I’m able to live out my extremes when I’m with Eddie – I’m not timid when I find myself writing a scene in the book that reflects one in real life at which I was timid.
And his reaction when Sam dies and at Sam’s graveside as he’s being attacked by Jilly, is exactly how I would have reacted. I know this because I delved quite deep into myself to write those scenes.
The big difference, certainly in this book, from myself and Eddie, is that he cannot control his drinking. I love a good whisky, but I also like to think I know when to stop – just the other side of merry works for me, and I don’t partake all that often, maybe once a fortnight or so.
But if I could narrow it down to a couple of scenes that I enjoyed writing because of the characters present, they would be at the Freaks Inc psychic meeting where Eddie is sussed by a medium and then Eddie walls him up (prior to breaking down in tears outside in the rain), and the second would be the three-way confrontation between Henry, Stuart, and Sirius. There’s nothing special about both of these scenes really, except I enjoyed writing the dialogue very much.
Did you ever warm to any of the characters? Ros perhaps, or could you empathise with Jilly?
Kath wrote: "Hi again. I think the reason I loved TTR so much was that it picked up the dichotomy in my own, and I suspect, many people's thinking. I don't agree with taking another life. It's two families grie..."Hi Kath.
Thanks very much; I’m delighted you enjoyed The Third Rule.
I’m with you in that taking someone else’s life shouldn’t ever be undertaken lightly. But, as it says in the book, “We’re not exactly short of people, so why keep the bad ones?”
I found the whole premise quite exciting to write about. There is no wholly right or wrong answer to any of the points it raises, but I’m delighted it’s got people thinking about them, and reacting to them too.
A lot of what the book aims at is one simple question: should serious offenders be rehabilitated or punished?
I’ll shrug my shoulders here, and let the debate continue.
David said Did you ever warm to any of the characters? Ros perhaps, or could you empathise with Jilly?I didn't warm to any of the characters but, for me, that's not necessary at all to enjoy a good story!
You write some very vivid scenes and I think it's those scenes and the characters that were in them which stand out for me.
If I had to pick out one of my favourites, it would be the scenes between Christian and Alice. More specifically, I think the scene when Alice is first left alone is particularly powerful - when she goes down in to the basement to satisfy her curiosity and her cravings.
As I said before, I found the story on the 'noir' side and you delve pretty deeply into the darker parts of the mind of your characters. Alice is a good example of that.
Ann wrote: "David said Did you ever warm to any of the characters? Ros perhaps, or could you empathise with Jilly?I didn't warm to any of the characters but, for me, that's not necessary at all to enjoy a go..."
Thanks for the comment, Ann. Sorry for the late reply, work got in the way and would not budge.
When I first began writing The Third Rule back in 2004, I decided I would allow myself freedom with the characters. I allowed myself to delve as deeply as I thought I should in order to experience what they were experiencing. That’s one of the reasons that the first edition was 260k words long.
But it was fun, and I enjoyed seeing everything in close-up. But overall, I think it was to the detriment of the book, which is why in 2012, about a year after its release, I decided to go over it one last time. I removed quite a lot of introspection because I’d had some comments from people who had found it boring. I don’t know if those people were expecting an action novel, but I took on board their comments and cut.
It now stands at 180k words, and I have to say I’m a whole lot happier with it.
Alice is kind of creepy, don’t you think? But then, she is suffering from a mental disorder not helped at all by the street drugs she’s on. But through the haze, she can see her goal and tramples on Christian to reach it.
One chap I enjoyed writing too, was Max. He doesn’t get a lot of airplay in the book, but I liked how he was driven by greed, and it ultimately turned him into a murderer. He loved his art too much for his own good.
David said, 'Alice is kind of creepy, don’t you think?..'She certainly is. I think that's why I liked her so much!
It's a balance isn't it, between keeping on track with the plot, yet showing your characters as you really want them to be?
Anyway, your skill in characterisation was definitely a high point for me.
Thanks, Ann, very kind of you to say so :)I must admit, I found it really difficult to keep away from self-indulgence and remember I was trying to tell a story. You're right it's a very fine line. I think I've learned so much from The Third Rule, and now try harder to keep on track. I think I managed that in Black by Rose, but only time will tell.
How did you feel about the ending, the scene in the cottage?
Not finished yet, but it is certainly a page turner!
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Not finished yet, but it is certainly a page turner!"That's really good to hear, Kirsten; hope you're enjoying it :)
Hi again! I know you enjoy writing Eddie and you last few books have featured him. I didn't like him at first but he's grown on me and I've enjoyed subsequent books starring him. I can see why you enjoy writing him (I often think of a blazingly clever, cutting remark half an hour after a conversation and you can make him do it on the fly) but do you have any plans to write something different? A non-Eddie story? The problem is, with a series, people need to go to the beginning so potentially you won't get customers for books later in the line.
David said, How did you feel about the ending, the scene in the cottage?Well, I agree with Betsy, who said,"That whole Alice/ Christian scene, IMO, was one of your BEST ! "
I found it sad and tragic. (view spoiler)
Yup, it was pretty powerful.
Kath wrote: "Hi again! I know you enjoy writing Eddie and you last few books have featured him. I didn't like him at first but he's grown on me and I've enjoyed subsequent books starring him. I can see why yo..."
Hi Kath, great to hear from you again!
Lots of people have commented how they disliked him to begin with, but gradually warmed to him as they went through The Third Rule, and even more once they’d tackled Black by Rose and Sword of Damocles. So it’s good to hear that you too felt a certain warmth towards him.
I do have plans to write something other than Eddie, yes. I have one story in mind – it’s really just a skeleton of a story right now – that I would struggle to fit Eddie into. It’s still crime fiction, but the story definitely belongs to the criminal and not Eddie. So if Eddie were in it at all, it would just be a cameo – so I might as well not have him in it.
Yes, I agree about people not seeing the series through, and that can be difficult when your first book, A Long Time Dead isn’t perhaps as strong as the ones that follow it; or in the case of The Third Rule are quite long, dissuading people from experiencing the rest of the series. I do fret about it, there’s not much I can do about it now. I also worry that people will hit the wrong book first and be confused because Eddie is part way through his own life-story.
Ann wrote: "David said, How did you feel about the ending, the scene in the cottage?Well, I agree with Betsy, who said,"That whole Alice/ Christian scene, IMO, was one of your BEST ! "
I found it sad and tr..."
Hi Ann,
Well I’m delighted that you found the whole series of events surrounding Alice, and the people surrounding her too, were powerful. I had a huge amount of fun – and not a little consternation – devising her story.
(view spoiler)
I wonder what your feeling are towards Henry, both in the SOCO office scene and during the interview with Mick. Did his demise make you change your mind?
If anyone has any more questions or just thoughts on The Third Rule or any of the other books in the Eddie series (or the Roger Conniston series), I'll be delighted to answer them.It's quietened down a little now, so I'll check in once a day until I hand over the baton.
Up to 59%, Andrew! Rocking book. In a way, it reminds me of Tom Clancy in the way all your disparate threads end up braiding together.I was wondering how much research you had to do in things like CSI, drug culture, psychics, government, etc.
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Up to 59%, Andrew! Rocking book. In a way, it reminds me of Tom Clancy in the way all your disparate threads end up braiding together.I was wondering how much research you had to do in things lik..."
Hi Kirsten, I’m so pleased you’re getting along well with it.
I take the Tom Clancy reference as a big compliment, thank you! I might even use that on a book cover, ahaha.
I do like to start my stories with all the cast of characters assembled and ready to go, and flick between them as their own story progresses until they all meld together, and then we can see the conclusion of the story as a whole through their own circumstances.
It’s how most films – and soap operas for that matter – are shot. People don’t seem to have a problem with that particular way of presentation in that medium, yet I’ve had more than my fair share of reviews complaining that readers can’t keep up with the different story threads. Tut.
Anyway, if it’s good enough for Mr Clancy, then it’s good enough for me too.
I’m very lucky in that I’ve been a CSI for just a few days over 20 years (I started 29th May 1996), and so I have a fairly good foundation for the CSI side of things including drugs – from a professional stand-point, you understand – having seen quite a few drugs deaths and other drug related crimes along the way. The psychic stuff I just made up. I mentioned in previous answer that I attended one or two meetings maybe 15 years ago. I went along to a group reading where you have rows of people all watching in awe as the medium struts his/her stuff up at the front, and I also went to a private reading where, I have to admit, I was startled by her accuracy.
I didn’t go alone, I was coerced into going, but I’m glad I went – if nothing else than for the chance to store some info to use in a book at some point. And that point just happened to be The Third Rule, so it came in very handy after all.
The government was a different kettle of fish altogether. I had to do some fairly intense research there. I learned a lot about how the politics mixes with the judiciary, how the sentencing guidelines council arrive at their decisions, etc.. It was fascinating stuff, but I remember wondering about the conflict between politicians and judges and wonder why we didn’t have a Justice Ministry; we have ministries for everything else! And then, as if by magic, we got a Justice Ministry just a few years after I wrote it!
As I’ve said before in this thread, the book is a lot shorter now than it was in its first edition, and the politics was one of the elements that took a particularly bad hit during the editing process. I had reams of stuff about the PAC organisation, including how they took their lead from the Suffragettes, and what their colour scheme represented, and so on. The book’s a lot better without it all too, but it does seem a shame to lose all that background shading, all that detail that made the story all the more realistic.
Wonderful questions, Kirsten, and I apologise for rambling on here so much – but it’s good to talk.
Thank you very much, Sean. I had a fabulous day :)
Mod
Enjoyed the characters, the way it came together.
Although a little long for me, and had family problems sadly in between.
But hope you like my review.
Hi Sean. Yes I certainly did like your review. I know the length of the book might be off-putting for some, but I'm so pleased you stuck with it, and that it worked for you. I've learned my lesson: keep it short (er). many thanks for being kind enough to leave a review, they're so very welcome!
Now that they've gotten their Brexit, it's time for the Rules!
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Now that they've gotten their Brexit, it's time for the Rules!"I never cease to be amazed how life imitates art ;)
I never thought the UK would leave the EU (this isn't turning political, don't worry), but The Third Rule is now one step away from becoming reality - and it's scary.
I should write myself as a millionaire, maybe that will come true!
Many thanks to Janet for this wonderful review for The Third Rule.Here's a link to her review here on Goodreads. I'm one rating away from my 400th - exciting!
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Sean wrote: "Read and done my review.Enjoyed the characters, the way it came together.
Although a little long for me, and had family problems sadly in between.
But hope you like my review."
Sean, Perhaps you can help me w/ this. HOW does one connect one's review to a link to it? I've looked at HTML formatting but don't know which to use or how. Thanks for your help!
Betsy,open your review, then copy and paste the html.
David, I appreciate your help ; unfortunately, I am an tech. dinosaur.I did open my review but there was no html to copy/paste, which I don't think I know how to do anyway. But thanks!
At the top of the webpage, Betsy, the www. Bit. Copy it, then paste it into the comment box.
David, I should not be taking up your time nor space here for others' comments b/c this "old dog" just doesn't get it; I have no idea what to do with the www., what "Bit" means and see no comment box.David, If you were here, I'd give you a big hug b/c you are a good friend and I appreciate that you have tried. It's OK, no problem :)
Andrew wrote: "Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Now that they've gotten their Brexit, it's time for the Rules!"I never cease to be amazed how life imitates art ;)
I never thought the UK would l..."
Dave Cameron is stepping down, is Boris the evil Deacon?
Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Now that they've gotten their Brexit, it's time for the Rules!"I never cease to be amazed how life imitates art ;)
I never thought..."
Oooh, how splendid, Kirsten! He looks the type doesn't he? A bit shifty... :)
Betsy wrote: "David, I should not be taking up your time nor space here for others' comments b/c this "old dog" just doesn't get it; I have no idea what to do with the www., what "Bit" means and see no comment b..."Hi Betsy. Did you manage to link your review?
Andrew wrote: "Betsy wrote: "David, I should not be taking up your time nor space here for others' comments b/c this "old dog" just doesn't get it; I have no idea what to do with the www., what "Bit" means and se..."No, Andrew, I was not able to do it. I feel foolish: the English teacher who always said to students to follow directions and David tried twice, with complete directions, but I just don't understand HOW to follow the directions but.... it's OK; I don't want to take up anyone's time or space :)
Hi Betsy, it's no problem, please don't feel foolish. Below is the 'link' to this page. I've used it as an example. If you right click in the bar across the top of the page that has this type of link in it, you'll see several options. One option is 'copy'. Then go to the page where you'd like to display your review, and put the mouse where you need to be, then left click. When your cursor is blinking, right click, and 'paste'.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...Well, Andrew, this is what I came up with following your directions. Perhaps when I post it, it will come up as a link, or not :) I am tenacious and I DO try.... here goes.
A Big thank - you IF it works !
OMG, I feel SO smart, lol! Do click on my link to read my review of THE THIRD RULE = hooray!Who in the world creates ALL this stuff to drive us nuts ?! And, why can't it be simple? But, maybe it is, to most people?
Great review, Betsy, many many thanks. I feel elated right now :)Try this link; it'll take you straight there ;)
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Mod
Thanks again! :)
Janet, I have had a great time, and met some wonderful people. I loved answering all the questions, though I should apologise for the length of some of my answers - I can get quite carried away :)Thank you very much for having me, and a special thanks to all those who posed those wonderful questions.
May I take this chance to post a link to my GR author page?
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...
I thought all your answers were great, Andy, and made for enjoyable reading. Congrats on a successful group read. I highly recommend book two people, Black by Rose.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Black by Rose (other topics)Black by Rose (other topics)
A Clockwork Orange (other topics)
Black by Rose (other topics)
Sword of Damocles (other topics)
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I can tell you the scene in the school will not be forgotten soon.
I like that you have so many disparate threads and characters. Will check back in soon!