Readalong and Q&A with Andrew Barrett - The Third Rule

[David]

Betsy, I f you enjoyed Third Rule, you'll love the next in the series, Black by Rose. I did.

[Betsy]

David, I value your opinion and your recommendations = thank you ! It certainly has gotten some sterling reviews!

[Ann]

Just popping into this thread to say that I'm 15% into the book - not sure yet how it will all hang together, so I'm waiting until then before joining the chat...

[Annette]

I loved the book and although it was over 600 pages it certainly didn't seem it. I like the fact that I know most of the locations in fact I have been past Bishopgarth this morning and it made me think of the book. I certainly didn't see it coming about the doll, I thought oh hell the poor child will be dead when she gets back. I too have recommended your books to others.

[Betsy]

Annette, How cool that you know of the places of which Andrew writes and his settings. I'm sure that really enhances your reading , as I can only imagine these places in my mind. Yep, that doll scene really got your attention, didn't it ?! It was just another instance of a good writer giving us a wow! factor. Glad that you liked the book too!

[Betsy]

Have been thinking a lot about Mick.
Mick's boss at the paper is giving Mick one last chance to come up with a good story. The story will be about the effects of The Rules on everyday people, and Mick focuses on the plight of Lincoln Farrier and his son. Mick feels the injustice here and this story becomes his passion.

I liked, Andrew, that you gave him this chance to showcase his skills/ ability and that you had him, through much adversity, do a great expose.
Did it have to end for Mick as it did?
Did you feel that there was no other choice ?

[David]

Ditto on the doll, it caught me out too. Great build up to that scene. You must have been chuckling as you wrote it, Andy.

[Kirsten]

Just finished my last Kindle Unlimited selection, so have now downloaded this book as my next book. Reading the blurb is really intriguing. I do love a dash of dystopia in my fiction!

[Andrew]

Betsy wrote: "Andrew, I have finished your wonderfully written book and I had many favorite parts: Since I loved both Eddie and Mick, when they were together, usually drunk, their banter back and forth between t..."

Hi Betsy, many thanks for the compliments! It makes me happy to hear that you enjoyed Mick and Eddie’s banter – I like to think they became (if they weren’t already) very good friends. I’m especially pleased you took note of Eddie declining Jilly’s offer because I wrangled over that decision for hours myself before committing; I have to be true to Eddie, and I like to think I know him pretty well. He smelled a rat and did one.
I won’t deny I feel a little sorry you didn’t enjoy the final 20%, everyone likes different things, and I’m just pleased you took so much from the first 80%. I’m delighted you offered 4-stars though, which is pretty good 

[Andrew]

David wrote: "Betsy, I f you enjoyed Third Rule, you'll love the next in the series, Black by Rose. I did."

Thanks very much for recommending Black by Rose, David :)

(Don't tell anyone, but it's my favourite book!)

[Andrew]

Betsy wrote: "David, I value your opinion and your recommendations = thank you ! It certainly has gotten some sterling reviews!"

If you do read it, Betsy, I hope it ticks your boxes! :)

[Andrew]

Ann wrote: "Just popping into this thread to say that I'm 15% into the book - not sure yet how it will all hang together, so I'm waiting until then before joining the chat..."

Looking forward to seeing you here, Ann :)

[Andrew]

Annette wrote: "I loved the book and although it was over 600 pages it certainly didn't seem it. I like the fact that I know most of the locations in fact I have been past Bishopgarth this morning and it made me t..."

Thanks, Annette! It's wonderful to hear when someone likes your book, it really is. It's especially good when people recognise the places you've written about - there's a sort of connection there, isn't there.

It's such a shame that West Yorkshire Police has sold Bishopgarth; it's an iconic estate, and was a centre of excellence known throughout the policing world. It used to accept officers for training from right across the globe.

Here's a fact for you. The old bar in Bishopgarth (closed down long before the estate was sold - because we don't allow that sort of thing on police property, goodness me!) was called the Mitre's Well. I always loved that name, made me smile each time I saw it.

Bishopgarth also featured quite a bit in the first trilogy, but especially in Stealing Elgar.

[Andrew]

Betsy wrote: "Annette, How cool that you know of the places of which Andrew writes and his settings. I'm sure that really enhances your reading , as I can only imagine these places in my mind. Yep, that doll sce..."

I'm really happy both you and Annette liked Spencer, the doll, Betsy. That was another aspect of the whole book that took a lot of thinking about. (view spoiler)[ Originally Spencer was a real kid, but the more I wrote of their story, the more I couldn't see a way of fitting all the attributes of a real kid into the show. And one day I slipped a few words into Christian's mouth about how crazy she was, and it just clicked. The doll was born. And of course, if it had been a real child, Christian wouldn't have taken the hammer to it - he did it to hurt her, but he also did it to wake her up from her 'silly' daydreams. (hide spoiler)]

[Annette]

Hi Betsy, yes it does enhance the reading for me. I should have started at the beginning Andrew, I have another couple of your books but I am a bit bogged down with Netgalley at the moment, All the better for the wait no doubt.

[Annette]

Glad you did what you did with doll Andrew

[Andrew]

Betsy wrote: "Have been thinking a lot about Mick.
Mick's boss at the paper is giving Mick one last chance to come up with a good story. The story will be about the effects of The Rules on everyday people, and ..."

I liked Mick very much towards the end of the book. I don’t know why this is, but during the first two thirds of the book, I imagined him being a slim middle-aged man, yet in those final scene in the cottage, I always saw him as a fat old man (no disrespect meant to fat old men, by the way!). Even now, I still can imagine ‘both’ Mick’s.

Like many of the characters in The Third Rule, Mick was there to serve a purpose, and I think he did it very well. (view spoiler)[ he interviewed both Deacons and got some juicy information; he broke into Henry’s house and helped discover the body, and he decoded Henry’s secret, and ultimately, he gave his life so that the truth could be told. I do think he died happy though, in the knowledge “that a story like the Deacons’ lands in an old journo’s lap once every twenty lifetimes” (hide spoiler)] .

But despite my liking him very much, there was no further tale for him to tell. He was never going to appear in another Eddie book (though there is a journalist in Black by Rose), and I couldn’t see an ending that was, for me anyway, as exciting as the one I wrote.

[Andrew]

David wrote: "Ditto on the doll, it caught me out too. Great build up to that scene. You must have been chuckling as you wrote it, Andy."

I was! I had hoped people would see it as Annette and Betsy did, how cruel a mother Alice was to leave her hungry child, and then Christian does that to him. The poor mite, hehe :)

[Annette]

I worked for Trading Standards down Balne Lane before they moved to Gildersome so I used to go to the Staff Club which also had a bar.

[Andrew]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Just finished my last Kindle Unlimited selection, so have now downloaded this book as my next book. Reading the blurb is really intriguing. I do love a dash of dystopia in my fiction!"

That's great to hear, Kirsten. I'm pleased the blurb intrigued you; most writers will tell you what a pig those are to write, and this was no exception. There are so many individual stories going in The Third Rule that to rule almost all of them out of the blurb was quite a hard task. Anyway, I hope you're enjoying it :)

[Andrew]

Annette wrote: "Hi Betsy, yes it does enhance the reading for me. I should have started at the beginning Andrew, I have another couple of your books but I am a bit bogged down with Netgalley at the moment, All the..."

Annette, you have started at the beginning of the Eddie Collins series. Next up is Black by Rose (much shorter and far more pacey) and then Sword of Damocles, followed by a short (very short!) story called The Lift.

The first series (The Dead Trilogy, as it was known back then) featured a CSI (back then called SOCO) named Roger Conniston. I wrote that series around the turn of the century so is considerably less, erm, less sophisticated (?). However, my favourite of that particular series is Stealing Elgar - loved writing that!

[Andrew]

Annette wrote: "I worked for Trading Standards down Balne Lane before they moved to Gildersome so I used to go to the Staff Club which also had a bar."

Ah, the Trading Standards building in Gildersome is just over the road from a very important police building (you probably don't even know it's there), and that's the place Eddie works in Black by Rose onwards in what I've christened the Major Crime Unit's building. (Eddie hates it, by the way, ahaha).

Used to have a bar? Have they shut all theirs down too? Sad times...

[Betsy]

Andrew, You give us SO much through your explanations and comments. I can't thank you enough for just taking this amount of time with us! It means a lot !!

Since we're trawling through the characters, I must say that
Stuart is a slimeball, IMO. I guess that he hates Eddie as much as he does out of professional jealousy.
I guess that there are usually "Stuarts" in many work-related settings, but in the school in which I taught, we seemed to be one happy group so I never personally knew a "Stuart". Too bad that he got "fried" though; wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Have any of you ever known or worked with a "Stuart" , someone who would go to such great lengths to disparage a co-worker ? Another guy whom I didn't like either was Detective Investigator Benson who was so ready to convict Christian w/out the facts; he just judged and wanted the whole thing done with, but he did apologize later, I think.

And I must ask: what is a WANKER? Sirius calls Henry one; Eddie calls Stuart one and Stuart says to Eddie, "You're still a drunken wanker," I get the connotation if not the specific meaning? Must be a British thing :)

[David]

Andy, one of the intriguing aspects of all your Eddie Collin's books, for me, is the forensic investigating and the way you handle it in your writing. On many occasions both in film and books this aspect of police work is almost magical as they find that incriminating piece of evidence and quickly solve the crime. In your writing it comes across as being so much more realistic and therefore believable. I think it is stronger because it is not overplayed, in fact I'd say you almost gloss over it.

I know you work in that field, so you're obviously obeying a golden rule and writing what you know. And finally, a question: Did you purposefully avoid pushing the reality of forensic investigation, or did it just come naturally? I imagine you sat before your keyboard and walking through the imagined crime as if you were investigating a real one.

PS Black by Rose is my favourite collin's book too, but Sword of Damocles comes close IMO.

[Kath]

Another vote for Black by Rose here! It's as good as it is because we already know characters from TTR.

I'll leave Andy to explain wanker! I'm looking forward to this. Yes, it's a peculiarly British insult.

[David]

You mirrored the thought that I didn't type, Kath.

[Andrew]

Betsy wrote: "Andrew, You give us SO much through your explanations and comments. I can't thank you enough for just taking this amount of time with us! It means a lot !!

Since we're trawling through the charac..."

I based Stuart on a colleague with whom I shared a mutual dislike that more than once almost resulted in fisti-cuffs. He was just as I described Stuart; one of those rare breeds that swans through life without a care, criticising everything in his path. ‘Slimeball’ is the perfect description. Each time I wrote a scene with him, I would imagine my colleague and the words just flowed, ahah.

And Benson is just horrid! Out for his own gain all the time. It’s not known, but (view spoiler)[ between the end of The Third Rule and the beginning of Black by Rose, he’s demoted from DCI to DI because of his behaviour. Of course, in reality, he’d have been dismissed for his actions (hide spoiler)]. But despite all that, I kept him on because I felt he had the necessary drive in a character that I needed in Black by Rose, and of course he and Eddie are enemies: what better than these two appearing side by side throughout a book, sparring and bickering!

Ah, now we’re onto something that made my jaw drop when I saw it.

The literal translation of the word ‘wanker’ would be a person who jerks off, I think. In British English it’s meant as an insult. In the latest short story I’m writing, someone calls Eddie a wanker (I know, hard to believe, right?), and he defines it thus: “If you look up ‘wanker’ in the (Eddie) Collins dictionary you’d see: n taboo slang, a worthless or stupid person, bossman, esp Audi-driver.”

[Andrew]

David wrote: "Andy, one of the intriguing aspects of all your Eddie Collin's books, for me, is the forensic investigating and the way you handle it in your writing. On many occasions both in film and books this ..."

Hi David ;)
Thanks for the comments – they really do mean a lot! With each book I write, I try to inject a little forensic ‘magic’ but I’m extremely wary of writing too much about it, since some people are turned off by it – though I think you should expect to find some in a ‘police procedural with a forensic slant’ (that’s how I used to describe the books). Still, I understand that any procedure, even forensics, can be very boring to read about, especially if described in too much detail. People don’t want to know how many forms you fill out, they don’t want to know how a DNA swab will follow either the GF111 route to have it laboratory analysed, or whether it’ll go via the MG21 path dependent upon whether we have a suspect in custody or not, and also, have we taken elimination DNA samples? They don’t want to know that sometimes we photograph fingerprints before we lift them in case they’re damaged by the lifting process. And if we do photograph them, then we have to electronically transfer the images to the fingerprint bureau as well as scan an image of the actual lift, and of course send the physical lift too. Crazy, right!

Thanks to programs like CSI Miami, all the background stuff is miraculously washed away and we’re left with just the glamour (what glamour!). But I suppose that’s good; people really don’t need that kind of detail in a work of fiction. With me, they get the overview of the process we adopt at crime scenes, and then they get the lab result (if needed). The true story is the people, the characters, and how they interact with the each other and with elements of the story. If I do gloss over it it’s because the detail would be boring, or it would add nothing to the story, or it would be there to show the reader how utterly wonderful the author is at his day job; all things that belong outside a novel.

I generally decide what evidence I need from a crime scene to link it to another crime scene in the book or to a specific character. Then I do as you say: I walk through the scene in my mind and try to find that evidence. In The Third Rule (view spoiler)[ I needed to be able to place Christian at Alice’s murder scene, and since they lived together, we could forget any traces of DNA being of much value, and of course fingerprints were out of the window. However, if we put his footwear there in her blood, we have something damning to put to him in interview. It says he was there as her blood was spilt (or shortly afterwards) – he knows something about it, he can’t deny being there at the time she died, or for however long it took for her blood to dry out after the event. In the end, I’m not too sure now if Benson nailed that in interview or not or whether other details were put to him instead, but it was there should I have needed to use it (hide spoiler)].

Oooh, dear. Apologies for the very long reply!

Thanks very much for saying Black by Rose is your favourite Collins book – it’s mine too :)

[Andrew]

Kath wrote: "I'll leave Andy to explain wanker! I'm looking forward to this. Yes, it's a peculiarly Briti..."

Scaredy cat!

(You too, David!)

[Kath]

I'm not scared. I'm a laydee!

[Andrew]

Aw no, laydee's don't know what a wanker is ;)

[Kath]

They know rather a lot of them, however!

[David]

Not always a true insult, if you knew some of the guys I used to work with. British humour!

[Sean, Moderator]

I am about 55%. Lost a little concentration last 2-3 days due to family problems.

[Betsy]

I think that I will keep "wanker" out of my vocabulary . Thank you for the heads up, Laydee Kath :)

And, you're right, Andrew, many readers' eyes glaze over with TOO much forensic detail; I know that mine do. An overview is just fine w/ important evidence noted, as I tend to focus on character interaction, etc.
However, that being said, I do think that it's interesting how the smallest, seemingly inconsequential things can lead to big discoveries e.g. Eddie is examining the green Jag and finds that someone has tried to burn it by stuffing an expensive shirt cuff into the fuel pipe and, guess who wears that particular Oxford and Hunt brand of shirt which leads to .... things like that I see happening on TV programs, etc. , but I guess that it happens more regularly. Anyway, that got my attention!

[Dave]

I wasn't 100% certain of the definition (in context) of wanker, but my Kindle provided it--turns out I did know the meaning!

[Dave]

Finished. And yes, the various threads--which seemed so disparate earlier in the book--came together nicely in the end. In any novel I'm looking for: is the writing good (meaning, does it evoke strong imagery and emotions), are the plot and characters entertaining, and is the book put together with professionalism.

On all of these points, Andrew scores very well--especially with the imagery and character development. Although the characters overall are rather dark (it is a distopian plot), I certainly felt like I knew them, and this wasn't always a comfortable feeling. But, I'm fairly certain that's what Andrew was trying to achieve--and he succeeded!

[Betsy]

Before this slips out of my mind, again.... how I love A Ha moments!
The suicide note that Farrier supposedly wrote and left, Andrew, was a stroke of genius. How I applauded you on that !
And then, they knew it was a murder.

[David]

Betsy wrote: "Before this slips out of my mind, again.... how I love A Ha moments!
The suicide note that Farrier supposedly wrote and left, Andrew, was a stroke of genius. How I applauded you on that !
And then..."

I'd forgotten that (some time has passed since I read Third Rule) it was a great piece of plotting.

[Kath]

I hadn't forgotten. I read the original a couple of times and then I read the new version. These a-ha moments are what keep you turning the pages.

[Betsy]

Well, guys, I am about finished with all the things that I wanted to ask Andrew , and what a pleasure he has been !

Probably the only thing about which I am still unclear is this:
The whole "Henry's secret" was confusing to me.
Mick to Eddie, "Help me find the secret he wanted me to have."
How did Henry even know it would be Mick who was involved here?
Then they find an envelope w/ a crossword puzzle inside and I didn't get that at all. Did the puzzle just point to a location, or what?
I can't believe that IF George Deacon wanted to know the "secret" that Henry was holding over his head, he would have had Sirius use a little torture and bingo.... secret exposed.
Help me figure this out, please.

[Andrew]

Sean wrote: "I am about 55%. Lost a little concentration last 2-3 days due to family problems."

Sorry to hear that, Sean. Hope everything's back on track :)

[Andrew]

Dave wrote: "Finished. And yes, the various threads--which seemed so disparate earlier in the book--came together nicely in the end. In any novel I'm looking for: is the writing good (meaning, does it evoke str..."

That's very kind of you to say so, Dave. It sounds as though you enjoyed the book :) Always very pleasing to hear that it brought a little entertainment to someone.

As for imparting a feeling of discomfort on a reader... well, I'm not complaining about it :) After all, I felt discomfort writing it, so it should transpose through to the reader if I've done my job well, so I'm happy to hear that you share my discomfort.

I think probably the most discomforting scene for me was when (view spoiler)[ Sam died. I have a son, Lewis, who was about 4 when I wrote Sam's death. One day Lewis ran out of our garden, down the drive and onto the road. I was chasing him, but just couldn't seem to gain. I remember saying over again, "No, no, no..." as he ran out, praying there was no traffic around. Fortunately it all turned out okay for Lewis and me. During the not so fortunate outcome for Sam, I imagined how I'd feel if someone awful had happened to Lewis - I mean, really imagined it to the point where I was in tears. It was horrid. And some of that emotion came back again when I was writing Jilly's harrowing, tormenting scenes of grief. (hide spoiler)]

Anyway, so glad you came along, Dave :)

[Andrew]

Betsy wrote: "Before this slips out of my mind, again.... how I love A Ha moments!
The suicide note that Farrier supposedly wrote and left, Andrew, was a stroke of genius. How I applauded you on that !
And then..."

Thanks, Betsy! I wondered if Sirius could really be that dumb, or neglectful. But I decided it was an easy enough mistake to make, even if the stakes were as high as that, so I let it roll :)

[Dave]

Andrew wrote: "Dave wrote: "Finished. And yes, the various threads--which seemed so disparate earlier in the book--came together nicely in the end. In any novel I'm looking for: is the writing good (meaning, does..."

Yes, that scene was really tough to read. Hard to keep dry eyes.

[Andrew]

Betsy wrote: "Well, guys, I am about finished with all the things that I wanted to ask Andrew , and what a pleasure he has been !

Probably the only thing about which I am still unclear is this:
The whole "Henr..."

Hi Betsy 
How did Henry even know it would be Mick that was involved here? He didn’t. Henry had already selected another journalist from The Times (if I remember correctly), whose name slips my mind right now.

I think Mick’s tenacious attitude, his firm but none-aggressive ‘interview’ technique (view spoiler)[may have won Henry over in convincing him that Mick should be the one to expose his father after his own death. (hide spoiler)]

The crosswords bit. (view spoiler)[ Henry used a two-part ‘puzzle’ to send Mick a coded message telling him where the evidence against his father was. The first part was a blank crossword puzzle located under Henry’s wardrobe in a place where Mick’s eyes had roamed during the interview with him. The second part, delivered separately for an even greater degree of security by a time-delayed email, when overlaid with the first, gave the location.

Also inside the crossword puzzle was a message from Henry, expressing his sorrow at killing Sammy, and what a nasty man his father was. You may have missed that part, Betsy, as I recall you saying Henry had no redeeming features at all. It was revealed in the final pages. (hide spoiler)]

I guess that if you didn’t get any of that then I didn’t do a very good job. I didn’t want to make it too easy for the reader, but it seems I might have made it too difficult. Shame really, because those crosswords were an absolute nightmare to format!

About the lack of a torture scene to help George get the information from Henry. (view spoiler)[ Who says Sirius didn’t torture him before he killed him? Although I never mentioned it in the narrative, can you say that it didn’t happen – I wasn’t there when Henry died, remember? I dare say that Sirius offered Henry a bargain – a quick death for the information versus a slow, painful and embarrassing death if he didn’t cooperate. One thing’s for sure, Henry knew he was going to die, and he made it fairly obvious Mick was going to get the secret, and so I think he’d even anticipated torture, perhaps. Either way, he was determined not to give it up before he died. (hide spoiler)]

Thank you very much, Betsy, for all your questions. It’s been a real treat for me to chat to you about the book, and I must say some of your questions have had me rolling back the years as I tried to think of the reasons behind some plot line or another. If you do go on to read the rest of the series, I’d love to hear from you!

[Betsy]

Thank you, Andrew, for providing me and our Good Thriller readers with wonderful insights into your writing process and sharing your comprehensive, thoughtful explanations. They were invaluable !!
The Good Thriller Discussion group is very fortunate to have such a responsive, private tutor :)
With your exceptional talent, you will continue to have an exciting writing career, which I will certainly follow.
Many thanks and best regards! Over and out....

[Kirsten]

Andrew wrote: "Betsy wrote: "Andrew, I find your concept of The Third Rule intriguing and it would certainly appeal to many people who think that criminals sent to prisons get off very well with their prison life..."

As a US resident, I wonder how the gun deaths got so high? Isn't access to guns limited in the UK?

As to the death penalty a deterrent, I agree it's not. Of course, in our country, we have the lengthy appeals process. In California, there are lots on death row but it's been decades since an execution. But then there is Texas....

[Kirsten]

Andrew wrote: "This made me smile wide, Betsy, because one of the aims for the book was that it should make people think about this. I tried to put forward points for and against capital punishment, and even vari..."

I think it depends on the person. I remember when Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, was being sentenced. Many of his victims' families didn't want him executed. (He wasn't, as he helped locate all the victims.) One in particular struck me, he said he had to forgive him, he hadn't yet, but he was working at it.

[Kirsten]

Betsy wrote: "I think that I will keep "wanker" out of my vocabulary . Thank you for the heads up, Laydee Kath :)

And, you're right, Andrew, many readers' eyes glaze over with TOO much forensic detail; I know ..."

Whenever I see the word "wanker", I imagine it being used by Andy Dalziel with Warren Clarke's voice!