World, Writing, Wealth discussion
All Things Writing & Publishing
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What's your message to the world?
Philip wrote: "Don't know why I hadn't chipped into this thread before.I have several messages to the world varying in mood
Go away...
Please read my stuff better still please buy my stuff
I'm brilliant - why ..."
-:)
We're reading your stuff, Philip and it's much appreciated. Nik, that's a good idea; they did it on another site; A Good Thriller and it was amazing how far reached they all were. It's good to see people where they are. I hadn't pictured you in Israel, I thought you were a sharp bar-trendy in the Big Apple having escaped form Ukraine. The weather here in Somerset, England is another beautiful day. We've had almost no rain for over a month and I didn't think I would be asking for it in April. The soil is rock-hard and I need to do some digging.
Having a family Birthday lunch which I am cooking so I must get on. Have a nice day everyone. TTFN
P.K. wrote: "I thought you were a sharp bar-trendy in the Big Apple having escaped form Ukraine..."-:)
Enjoy the cooking and further consumption and Happy Birthday!
I initially wrote my book as a solace to myself, for the book is a series of letters I wrote during very difficult times, often in disaster zones across the world. The letters mostly give me comfort when I am feeling down.I published them to give inspiration to others who may benefit from some of the stories of hope and endurance despite human suffering, and the good we can achieve together as a people if we work and strive together. My experiences have proven that to me and so, if by publishing the book, it can give a similar meaning to one other person in the world, I think that's a great achievement for me.
Saqib wrote: "inspiration to others who may benefit from some of the stories of hope and endurance despite human suffering, and the good we can achieve together as a people if we work and strive together..."Great message
Thanks everyone, I remember when I was in Haiti back in 2010, I wrote all my letters on an old beat up phone in the early hours of the morning with limited electricity. Somehow I felt the stories I was hearing and all that I was experiencing needed to be told in a giant text message of hope. I'm glad to have finally put those words into print and I look forward to reading other similar messages now.
Welcome, Saqib. I'm sure we are going to read those stories. I think you are going to teach us from your experiences rather than we teach you.
PARESH wrote: "Writing is the most silent and most far-reaching form of communication which allows us to introspect before putting up our ideas in front of the world and sharing our feelings with the outside worl..."Hear, hear, Paresh!
Nik wrote: "Jeffery wrote: "Share society's surplus..."Like this one!"
thnx
A story with a message that influenced readers was Uncle's Tom (the usual one cited). A science book with a message that made waves was Silent Spring (again, the usual). A movie was Gandhi (and his life). Like them or love them, all had to be written. And more coming down the pike need to express knowledge and hope. All that aside, how about if we all befriend each other and review each other's? So to avoid tit-for-tat reviewing that Amazon frowns on?
PARESH wrote: "Well, Pk. I told you that writing is the most silent form of communication which allows us time to introspect. In such a case, ego is kept at a minimum level because readers have equal time to intr..."This is me poking the like button.
Well P.K. Let us discuss about the art of writing and not human attitudes. Writing as a tool for communication is as innocent as a new born kid. It is only human attitudes that give writing a bad name. Your presence on goodreads and desire to communicate using written words vouch for this fact. Any weapon can be offensive or defensive or dormant when there is no provocations of any kind. And writing is the most civilized weapon since it makes no noise and allows the readers a chance to bring out the writers in them using the same silent weapon.
Jeffery wrote: "how about if we all befriend each other and review each other's?..."Befriending sounds cool. Cross-reviewing may be problematic
Jeffrey your thought that we should all come together is a civilized way of using written words as a tool for communication. So let us make this platform to unite and not channelize our egos for destructive debates.
Paresh, far as I can tell, your suggestion is a description of what's happening here. And Nik, could you elaborate how a daisy chain is a problem? Thanks.
Well, Jeffrey. We can make it more organized with each of the contributor telling his or her exact purpose for taking part in this discussion. One of us can be a moderator who checks whether the purpose declared by the participant is adhered to or not so that we do not cut across each others' views nor do we digress from the declared purpose. We should not be impulsive but do our turns in contributing. And this thread should be renamed are writing and publishing a tool or a weapon for personal survival.
Jeffery wrote: "And Nik, could you elaborate how a daisy chain is a problem? Thanks."Haven't gone into that much, but we had discussions on different review swaps options. Here is one of them:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Basically it's about eligibility, longevity (in a sense that they might be pulled down) and interpersonal relations: I gave you 5 why you give me three stars, I read you didn't and so on..
However, I'm under impression there are quite many groups on GR dedicated to reviews and stuff.
PARESH wrote: "And this thread should be renamed.."Renaming and re-targeting a thread with over 120 posts in it, sounds a bit far-fetched, but we encourage members to set up new threads in relevant folders -:)
Nik wrote: "Jeffery wrote: "And Nik, could you elaborate how a daisy chain is a problem? Thanks."Haven't gone into that much, but we had discussions on different review swaps options. Here is one of them:
ht..."
Wish there was a simple thanks icon.
Paresh, I'm not really getting from where you are coming with your promulgation of writing. Writing is not an innocent tool of communication, it just just another expression of thoughts and they are often, mostly, not innocent otherwise they would not be thoughts.Writing does not have a bad name, that would be rather futile to give it one. Writing is the longest surviving expression of human endeavour other than graphic art.
You keep referring to writing as a weapon, which rather intimates that you are sub-consciously using it as such. Neither would it be the most civilised weapon if it were; you should be subjected to the classic English Society put-downs over a charming glass of something. Read Jane Austen.
Jeffery's ideas about swapping critiques was well answered by Nik with the link he gave for when the subject was discussed; it was very useful.As writers we have to bite the bullet if we request critiques. An annodine one is of no use if we want to improve as writers. If we put our work out to be read we must accept the reception it might get and take what constructive criticism there is on the chin. If the comments are not constructive, like someone calling it rubbish without explaining why they think it is, then we can use that by asking ourselves the question as to why they said it. I gave an example in my blog about writing groups. I have a number of my book on giveaways in exchange for a review, but I only wish for an honest opinion of it. I am thinking of paying an agency for reviews, perhaps that is the best way of a, getting one and, b, getting an honest one.
Jeff, you are right about books that do change attitudes but, like Uncle Tom's Cabin, the object of writing it was not to do so; that is good literature. Silent Spring (the greatest title in the language) was written specifically to highlight a problem and hope to change it. Then it is a weapon as Paresh says, like 1984. That is fine as long as the author knows they are using their writing for other reasons than a piece of literature.
BTW, for those seeking reviews, you might try Making Connections group, promoting books offered by the authors for review.If you happen to be in the vicinity of a thriller, you are likely to pique Tony Parson's interest there
Thanks Nik - and good day to you. I'll investigate it.
I cannot keep on writing in an impulsive manner. Let my readers decide whether I am using it as a weapon or as a tool. Innocence of writing always reflects when u subtract human attitudes. Writing is just writing. Only human beings have perceptions. If u still want to continue this discussion, make it more organized by opening another thread as already discussed. Bye till then.
Nik wrote: "BTW, for those seeking reviews, you might try Making Connections group, promoting books offered by the authors for review.If you happen to be in the vicinity of a thriller, you are likely to pique..."
thnx, pk
There are several agencies, Jeff. Some charge up to $100 depending on how many crits you want. But they do put them on all the reader sites, including this one, and no one can then say they are rigged.
P.K. wrote: "There are several agencies, Jeff. Some charge up to $100 depending on how many crits you want. But they do put them on all the reader sites, including this one, and no one can then say they are rig..."But if you have to pay for them, people might depreciate them.
Hi Jeff. Did you mean depreciate or depricate? If the latter, I don't see why that would be, it would be an honest review. The agencies appoint several of their readers to review so one gets a cross-section of opinion. If you mean depriciate, how would that be?
P.K. wrote: "There are several agencies, Jeff. Some charge up to $100 depending on how many crits you want. But they do put them on all the reader sites, including this one, and no one can then say they are rig..."It's the old saw about leading a horse to water. No matter how many people read a book, very few will actually write a review. Unless they are paid, which not everyone has the cash for.
A good rating on Goodreads is lovely, but the people writing those few words are gold dust.
Good or bad, I read all my reviews. Sometimes it's how I find out what message I put in the book :-) (Back to origin of thread)
Though as an avid reader (less so now I write) I confess to being just as bad. I only ever wrote reviews about a small percentage. Maybe that's the thing, a book with a review has managed to tweak a reader enough to comment. A hundred others might have read it, and liked or hated it, but not enough to tap those keys.
I get depreciation on my books, P.K. They are called one-star reviews :-)
PK, "to under value" (literally). It's what a publisher told me when I asked about authors paying Kirkus (a big name this side of the pond) $500 for a review. But fellow writer Vance (nice cat) rates paying for "favors" OK. Somebody here will write something that'll help me make up my mind.
It's a big dilemna isn't it? What I'm getting is the sense of demoralisation from crying in the wilderness. A big publisher told me, a long, long time ago, 'Don't give up; you've got something.'Whatever it is that I've got I'm still waiting for others to find it. If he'd said, 'Give it up, son. Try bricklaying' I might not have spent so long not enjoying myself.
The whole POD thing is a bit like Facebook; it gives an awful lot of people the opportunity to say nothing important or even entertaining. We are all crying like baby chicks, wanting to be noticed. There are many beautiful swans in those chicks but the problem is, sorting them from the ugly ducklings. Reviews should be one way of doing it but only if they are honest and intelligent.
Friends are no good because they won't tell you what they really think - otherwise they wouldn't be friends. So the alternative is to get strangers to read your book and it seems paying them to do it is the only way. I know there are plenty of free review sites. I have tried two or three and did not even elicate a reply from them.
Vince don't worry about one star reviews because as I see it, GR and Amazon starring systems are not worth much. I think I gave four stars to Lolita, Lord of The Flies, Romeo & Juliet and The Old Man And The Sea. Yet I see four and five stars handed out like confettee on these sites. I am reading two GR books at the moment; how do I merit them; by the GR and Amazon system or their literary worth? If I give them 2 stars even that would be dishonest by real standards. Would someone please categorise this star system. 1 for trying, punctuation and basic grammar. 2 for an interesting story-line. 3 for characterisation etc etc?
Perhaps GR could set-up such a standard; get an English Lit lecturer to do it. Unfortunately FR Leavis is no longer with us
(Cambridge Don for those unfamiliar with).
Meantime, guys; it looks like we'll have to thrown money at it.
P.K. wrote: "If he'd said, 'Give it up, son. Try bricklaying' I might not have spent so long not enjoying myself...."I'd also appreciate some objective readworthiness evaluator, if such existed -:)
Don't despair with the reviews. You'll procure some. They won't be critique reports and might not have a literary worth, but they'll have some worth for prospective readers as of what to expect and general impressions...
If anyone knows anyone willing to review, send them my way. I'll see if belonging to GR leads to some reviews. Amazon demands 20. But if I don't get that many here, then I'll rethink paying Kirkus or whoever for a review that gets plastered everywhere. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.
Jeffery wrote: "If anyone knows anyone willing to review, send them my way. I'll see if belonging to GR leads to some reviews. Amazon demands 20. But if I don't get that many here, then I'll rethink paying Kirkus ..."I'm a bit puzzled. Amazon demand 20 reviews for what? (because it might mean I'm in deep trouble :-)
I've found that some GR reviews ends up on Amazon as well, or maybe vice versa so with luck it will work for you, Jeffery.
I'd be interested in seeing how an objective read-worthiness evaluator would work out (though I'd probably be in trouble there as well :-) The result might be like a forest fire, judging by some of the offerings out there. Editing? Beta Reading? for heaven's sake, some of them could at least use a spellchecker.
Vance wrote: "I'd be interested in seeing how an objective read-worthiness evaluator would work out (though I'd probably be in trouble there as well :-)..."In this sense, I'm with P.K. - sometimes it's better to know right off that a commercial viability or general success are very unlikely - to save a lot of effort, anxiety and false hopes.
If you play football, scouts and coaches can usually tell with high precision whether one has a chance to make it as a pro. Yeah, they are not always right and maybe some footballers prove them wrong, but then - it's maybe 3%.
Authors shoot their stuff onto Amazon's orbit with ease, but then struggle with sales, recognition, illusions. Invest time and money in marketing, in whatever. For some this works, others end up with 20 years spent and 500 books sold. Worth the effort and struggle?
That's why my usual advice to all aspiring authors - make money elsewhere and then come enjoy being an author. If your work sticks - fine, if it doesn't - also fine, at least you've enjoyed the process.
Yeah, and I'm aware that there is Rowling writing her stuff on napkins and a few more Cinderella stories.. Unfortunately, Cinderellas are so rare - they are in the news -:)
That is so correct, Nik. Perhaps I have started a very useful thread here; reality check. Although I made the suggestion of an acceptable formula for valuating someone's work ad lib, I think it has credance. If this group could evaluate the possibility perhaps we could then suggest it to Amazon? Your analogy re football coaching is good; it identifies raw talent very easily but does not say how someone might develop later. It must be the same with writing with the difference that when we hit 'Publish' we are saying 'this is my finished work' which, often, it should not be.If we had a calculator by which to measure our work before we hit that button we would know if we were wasting out time or not. Group, please join in this confab. What think you?
Vance wrote: "Jeffery wrote: "If anyone knows anyone willing to review, send them my way. I'll see if belonging to GR leads to some reviews. Amazon demands 20. But if I don't get that many here, then I'll rethin..."Vance, I can't speak for Amazon, but what I've been told by others in the business is that once you have 20 reviews on Amazon, then Amazon too helps you sell your books by making them more visible.
P.K. wrote: "If this group could evaluate the possibility perhaps we could then suggest it to Amazon?..."It might be a valuable tool for authors, able to cope with whatever appreciation of their masterpiece. As of Amazon - I'm less sure they need it. I think their vetting system is primitive for a reason and they want any stuff, enrolled with them. As long as the author manages to bring about any sales, what do they care? Moreover, by offering virtually anyone an easy access to (self)publishing, they take pride in causing indie revolution.
Yes, Jeff, you're probably right about Amazon. But perhaps we can start a rival to them; Proper Appraisal Books. com.
PK, I do root for the underdog and will do what I can.
Nik you are right of course; Amazon is a business and unless someone can suggest a way of getting them to sell more books they won't change. But, they do invest a huge amount of time and money by giving us a chance to publish and they must be aware that POD sales have gone down remarkably and are still falling. So perhaps a tool for raising standards might be of interest? It's really Kindle who probably don't care about standards. If they cared about anything but profits they would open a European outlet. The cost of mailing books is prohibitive if you are not in the States. To import two dozen books it cost me more than my profit on the books.For a starter on a Standards Tool here is my suggestion for others to correct or evaluate.
1. PRESENTATION. page layout, ease of viewing
2. READABILITY. construction, punctuation, grammar
3. CHARACTERISATION. including dialogue
4. SUBJECT MATTER. does it hold interest?
5. STORYLINE. how well does it evolve?
6. MEMORABILITY how soon will you forget it?
Each category to be starred 1-4
Well done, PK. Now, what's our next step?
P.K. wrote: "The cost of mailing books is prohibitive if you are not in the States...."Exactly and takes two month to get into print and arrive..
Well thought out tool.
In presentation: Cover and Blurb are important too
MARKETABILITY/SALES POTENTIAL as another rubric - whether as a result of all of the above or notwithstanding ...
The question is whether automating such a tool is possible..
The more I think about a Standards Tool the more I like the idea. If a few more authors here were to put their minds to it and we arrived at a concensus about its content we could then post it on other groups and get their reaction. The next move would be, to answer your question Jeffery, to get the Goodreads mods to adapt it as a Goodreads Standard Review. Nik, I think other add-ons like marketing would be Post-Review, for the author's benefit rather than a readers. Cover and Blurb? That too. I think there is a lot of unnecessary advice about covers; about how important they are. They can be eye-catching and useful in a pile of books in a bookshop but for most of our purposes I doubt if they have much value. When I thought about it I found that 90% of cover designs were downloaded from libraries with the possibility of there being more than one the same or very similar. Hence that's why I ignored the method for my book and did my own.
P.K. wrote: "Nik you are right of course; Amazon is a business and unless someone can suggest a way of getting them to sell more books they won't change. But, they do invest a huge amount of time and money by g..."Hello P.K., I am still following the discussion. Since I feel that this entire discussion is getting more organized and purposeful for any writer, I am contributing my ideas.
Your idea of a Standards Tool is indeed great. One more factor I would like to add is :
author's prime qualification of producing a work in his or her own words or in the reviewer's words : such a qualification can be anything ranging from his or her own personal experiences, journalistic experiences, his or understanding of psychology, philosophy, power of English language, any other subject, etc. This will make it more interesting for the target audience to pick up the book and read.
Thanks for reading this.
Thanks Paresh. I think your idea would apply to non-fiction but it would be hard to do that with fiction. Writing fiction doesn't need any qualification except the ability to write in language that is understandable. Often there is the opportunity to talk to the author on Q & E's where they can certainly be asked such questions. We need to keep a Review Tool as simple as possible but succinct. What is the best way of describing the necessary parts of a book?
Sometimes teleporting there mentally -:)
No, I'm in Israel.
Conveniently, Alex has just set up a poll to show locations of members -:)