Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages discussion
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Agamemnon
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Agamemnon (458 BCE) - #5.0
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This group has been very quite for the last month. I myself have been gone on various summer trips that all occurred in June (1 river float, 1 wedding, 1 week-long family vacation on the beach) and then I just capped it all off with a long weekend of daily festivities celebrating the 4th of July. (Happy belated 4th to my fellow Americans, and Happy belated Canada Day to my Canadian friends!)
Sooooo...what that means is my reading fell VERY short last month. But my introverted self has had more than enough socializing for a while and is very eager to resume quiet reading dates with my books. :-)
I'm not yet finished with Agamemnon, but I am enjoying it so far and I will certainly be done by our finish date goal of July 15th.
How is everyone else doing? Any initial thoughts on the play? I was musing on the ingeniousness of using fire along mountain-tops to quickly communicate a message across vast distances...a sort of visual "texting" of the ancient world.
Mod
I never did like Agamemmon from The Iliad; I thought he demanded respect instead of commanding it, and was rather infantile. This play gives another perspective to his character which I think is valuable and it made me like him a wee bit more. Whether he deserved his fate is an interesting question.
There is another take on the story of the death of Iphigenia, in that Agamemnon sent a message back to Clytemnestra to get her agree to the killing of their daughter. Wow! Few of these stories/myths seem to have one version.
Yes, the fire along the mountain-tops is indeed effective ....... now perhaps we know where Tolkien got his idea of communication from Gondor to Rohan that they were in need of help. :-)
Mod
Oh wow! Could that be from the play written by Euripides in the 5th century BCE? I keep Edith Hamilton's Mythology handy as reference, and in it she describes Iphigenia's story as told in Agamemnon and then in two plays by Euripides. She says the Greeks were appalled at the idea of human sacrifice, and so he changed the story to a happy ending. But in Mythology, Hamilton writes, "When the Greek soldiers at Aulis came to get Iphigenia where she was waiting for the summons to death, her mother beside her, she forbade Clytemnestra to go with her to the altar." So in this version, it seems her and Clytemnestra were both in on Iphigenia's sacrifice, willingly. She is then spared at the last moment.
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Is there anyone else in the group, besides Cleo and myself, who is reading/has read Agamemnon?
Cleo, I assume you've already written your Agamemnon post on your blog? If you have, please do share the link here!
I've finished it. This was my first exposure to Aeschylus, Greek drama, and the story of Agamemnon. (I haven't read Homer at all and know very little about Greek mythology, so I wasn't aware that Agamemnon appears in other works.). I really liked it! I'm on vacation right now and my notes are at home, so I can comment a little more on it next week.
Mod
Ah, I finally found my way to this thread... :)
Pondering Agamemnon. I wonder how much the translations interfere with the interpretations. The Oxford version I'm using has a tremendous amount of notes (Collard translation) surpassing all the pages of the three plays combined (and then there is the introduction of course). I'm percolating the words of the nightwatchman as well as the choral sequence in the very beginning of the play. The choral sequence is very long (the longest in any of the Greek tragedies according to Collard). The rich symbolism, and the continuous referral to individuals and deities definitely explains the rich commentary of the appendix. Aeschylus truly sets the stage beautifully with explaining the events from the past i.e. before the expedition to Troy. The symbolism around the omen from Zeus as well as the sacrifice of Iphigenia is cryptic but wonderfully depicted and translated (thanks Collard!). The two eagles consuming a pregnant hare is a vicious symbol full of premonition and destiny. The whole first section with the watchman as well as the chorus is filled with so much foreboding that it is making me anxious. *shiver*
Based on Collard's commentary there seems to be a fair amount of debate around word choices in the various translations giving rise to slightly different meaning and interpretation of the sequence.
I compared three different translations and have a definite favorite. I am curious what you think about these examples and how translation plays a role in the impressions of the reader. I feel as if I am wrestling with three very different creatures as my mind took in the symbolic images and the wording. What are your thoughts? Which one do you prefer and why? ; -)Below are three examples of translations from Zeus' omen of the eagles and the hare.
In the Morshead translation:
And the sea-kings obeyed the sky-kings’ word,
When on the right they soared across the sky,
And one was black, one bore a white tail barred.
High o’er the palace were they seen to soar,
Then lit in sight of all, and rent and tare,
Far from the fields that she should range no more,
Big with her unborn brood, a mother-hare.
(Ah woe and well-a-day! but be the issue fair!)
In the Collard translation (Oxford UP):
the king of birds for the king of ships,
one black bird and one bird white behind,
appearing hard by their headquarters
on the spear-hand side, perching where they where seen
clearly all round as they fed
on a creature big with young heavy in its womb, a hare
stopped from its final run.
Cry "Sorrow, sorrow!", but let the good prevail!
In the Lattimore translation (U of Chicago Press):
Kings of birds to the kings of the ships,
one black, one blazed with silver,
clear seen by the royal house
on the right, the spear hand,
they lighted, watched by all
tore a hare, ripe, bursting with young unborn yet,
stayed from her last fleet running.
Sing sorrow, sorrow: but good win out in the end.
Mod
Isn't it amazing? The watchman's first line is brilliant and sets the tone for the whole play:
θεοὺς μὲν αἰτῶ τῶνδ᾽ ἀπαλλαγὴν πόνων
"I ask the gods for respite from these pains/toils/difficult endeavors .."
He also sets up keys points such as something is wrong in the palace, particularly with Clytemnestra and he also directs our attention to the oikos or house of Agamemnon. Since oikos can mean either "house" or "family", it takes on a double meaning in this case of not only unrest in the house but also the family.
The journey to Troy was sanctioned by Zeus therefore Agamemnon must obey. There are versions of the sacrifice of Iphigenia that say that Agamemnon had angered Artemis and that was the reason for the sacrifice. However in Aeschylus' version, she is not angered by Agamemnon but instead her anger is blamed on an omen (that two eagles killed a pregnant rabbit). Sounds dopey, doesn't it? Calchus says the Greeks will sack Troy, so it's believed that the pregnant rabbit represents Troy (the innocent women and children) and the two eagles Agamemnon and Menelaus. So in effect, she is punishing Agamemnon for what he will do and requiring him to show the ruthlessness and cruelty he will have to show at Troy. He is in an agonizing position because this act is not brought on by anything he's done yet; he's innocent but he must follow his moral duties: 1. he must avenge Paris' actions as a duty to his household and 2. he has a duty to protect his child as a father. One he had to violate to complete the other.
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Thanks for the comparison, Haaze. I am very familiar with Lattimore but hadn't read translations from the other two before.
I definitely prefer Lattimore above all others. His wording is so beautiful and he is supposed to have the best balance of not only sticking as closely as possible to the original Greek, but also sounding like Homer (which is hard to do, so if he manages to do a superb job translating Homer, the Greek dramatists must have been easier for him). At one time, I'd stumbled upon an article that investigated the difficulty of translating Homer. Even consonants and vowels are employed to give a feeling of rolling waves, thundering horses, etc. and Lattimore is the best at attempting this.
My forum friend who use to read ancient Greek has this to say about the Homeric translations:
"For the Iliad and the Odyssey, imnsho, the only translations I have ever seen which begin to do justice to Homer are Lattimore's. Simple, unadorned, but managing in so many places to capture the feel of the original. I wish I had maintained my Greek, because the original is always better... some things just can't be translated... but Lattimore makes me catch glimpses of the real thing and has a quiet grandeur which I love.
Fitzgerald has a nice translation of the Aeneid, but his translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey are, imho, too florid.. there is too much Fitzgerald and not enough Homer. They are pretty, but way off key.
The Fagles translations repulse me. They are so colloquial, so far from Homeric that they feel more like modern adaptations than translations.
Lombardo takes even more liberties with the text - imho this is definitely more of an adaptation than a translation.
For a very literal translation (most useful if you are trying to translate Homer yourself) the Loeb editions have facing English and Greek pages and follows the word order of each Greek line as closely as possible - I wouldn't use it as a primary text, but it is a neat supplement. (Ex: "The wrath sing, goddess, of Peleus' son Achilles," )
Some people like the Rieu prose translations, and I guess they could serve as an intro to Homer, but I wouldn't use them.
Mandlebaum has a slightly clunky translation of the Odyssey - he is my translator of choice for Dante (though it was a hard choice!), but not for Homer... but, unlike most of the others it *is* a reasonably reliable translation, as I recall.
Pope's translations are an older version of what Fagles has done - an adaptation in the "translator's" own style.. pretty, but not Homer... but, imo, less grating than Fagles and less ornate than Fitzgerald... though Fitzgerald is a more reliable translator.
Butler has prose translations of Homer... pedestrian is the adjective I would apply to them. Rieu's has a little more flavor, but Butler's is sold and straightforward.... not a version I would choose, but there isn't anything *wrong* with it...
Chapman's translation is a classic in its own right, but one I would read for itself not for Homer...
Those are all of the translations I have read... or at least can remember off hand ..."
Cleo wrote: "Isn't it amazing? The watchman's first line is brilliant and sets the tone for the whole play:θεοὺς μὲν αἰτῶ τῶνδ᾽ ἀπαλλαγὴν πόνων
"I ask the gods for respite from these pains/toils/difficult endeavors ..""
So true, Cleo! It is a brilliant starting point bringing premonition from the watchman as well as the dark background from the chorus. Do you read Greek? Ancient Greek has always been on my wish list although it has lower priority than a number of other languages.
In terms of word choice the translations I have chose different words that you for the watchman:
Weariness (Lattimore)
Misery (Collard)
Toils (Morshead) - yay, one of the words you mentioned.
It must be a difficult endeavor to wrestle with ancient Greek!!!
You brought up a really interesting point with Agamemnon's decision - the dilemma in regards that either choice will result in him supporting his household as well as dishonoring it. An evil dilemma.
Collard translates:
..he (Agamemnon) was hard enough to sacrifice
his daughter, in aid of war
to punish a woman
and as first-rites for the fleet to sail.
Both my translations precede this awful decision with:
..he put on a yoke-strap of compulsion (Collard)
Lattimore translates similarly but with barbed intent:
But when necessity's yoke was put upon him
he changed, and from the heart the breath came bitter
and sacrilegious, utterly infidel,
to warp a will now to be stopped at nothing.
Agamemnon seems transformed here into a brutal beast. So - I'm a bit lost here - because of necessity he turns infidel and sacrilegious? To promote war (over a woman) over the life of his precious daughter? Like you wrote previously failing the war effort or to kill his daughter are his two choices, but the choice seems to transform him to something that is less than human. In my mind, I recall the beginning of the Iliad when Agamemnon is arguing with Achilles. Somehow Agamemnon felt less like a king in those verses. Perhaps he is losing his humanity/kingliness in this very moment as he proceeds with sacrificing his daughter? An aspect to curse his life for the next ten years and beyond.
The curses in the Greek houses seem to run deep. Loved reading your comments, Cleo!
Cleo wrote: "Thanks for the comparison, Haaze. I am very familiar with Lattimore but hadn't read translations from the other two before.."Cleo,
Thanks for that great excerpt from your friend's musings on translations of Homer. I love reading about perspectives on translation. I, too, gravitate towards Lattimore in Homer. I always test the waters of other translators, but quickly return to harbor. I agree with many of your friend's statements. Fagles was so pushed forward by the publishers so it seemed like we had the ultimate translation in our hands. It is very good, but it seemed too soft and delicate compared to Lattimore's. Regardless, I cannot read Greek so who am I to judge? I can just say what I like to read and how I feel when I read the books. The overall bonanza of translations of Homer seems like a lifetime reading project on its own. Ha ha! Still, I would like to poke my nose into Chapman's translation one of these days!
I know from my own experience that the original languages always beat the translations no matter what, so perhaps one should find the time to learn ancient Greek? To read the ancient Greek authors aloud and hear the sound of waves and horses (like you so beautifully brought forward) was perhaps the true purpose of these oral epics?
[Note to self: find time to study more languages]
Mod
I can read a little ancient Greek, but a very little. ;-) I have a great beginning program if you're really interested. And I'm always looking for a learning buddy to keep me on track. I tend to pull it out, study it for a short time, then life gets in the way and it sits there. But the translation came from the internet from a Classics professor. I like "toils" best.
Haaze wrote: "Like you wrote previously failing the war effort or to kill his daughter are his two choices, but the choice seems to transform him to something that is less than human. In my mind, I recall the beginning of the Iliad when Agamemnon is arguing with Achilles. Somehow Agamemnon felt less like a king in those verses. Perhaps he is losing his humanity/kingliness in this very moment as he proceeds with sacrificing his daughter? An aspect to curse his life for the next ten years and beyond...."
A really good point, Haaze, and interesting how you link the two up. Agamemnon's behaviour in The Iliad has always surprised me (as has Odysseus' in The Odyssey, but that's another story). And Agaememnon's house is already under a previous curse that goes back to the family's founder, Tantalus, and adds another element to the play. Offending the gods, either by attempting to deceive them into eating the flesh of his son, Pelops, or by endeavouring to plunder nectar and ambrosia from the gods (depending on the story version), Tantalus was punished in the Underworld by being eternally inflicted with a raging hunger and thirst. Pelops was resurrected by the gods, but eventually incurred a curse by killing his desired bride's father and fleeing with the girl, Hippodamia. An attempted rape of the girl by Myrtilus ensued, and when Pelops threw him from a cliff, he cursed Pelops. The hereditary nature of the curse resulted in the killing of children by their parents and vice versa, a destroying of the whole family from within.
Mod
I am very translation-picky in certain languages and Greek is one of them, probably because it is so beautiful and deep and communicates so much. Lattimore beats them all IMO, even though sometimes the translation can sound a little awkward to our English ears --- but the beauty and grandeur are always there.
C.S. Lewis has an essay that deals with the problem(s) of Fitzgerald's translations. He's rather kind with his criticism but nevertheless, his view is interesting.
Cleo wrote: "I am very translation-picky in certain languages and Greek is one of them, probably because it is so beautiful and deep and communicates so much. ."I guess it ultimately depends on the perceiver/reader and what one enjoys. Perhaps that is why Fagles have had so much success as the translation caters to a different English soundscape, while Lattimore is striving to remain in the Greek realm? Just an hypothesis...
Hmm, C.S. Lewis' essay sounds intriguing!
Cleo wrote: "I can read a little ancient Greek, but a very little. ;-) I have a great beginning program if you're really interested. And I'm always looking for a learning buddy to keep me on track. I tend to pull it out, study it for a short time, then life gets in the way and it sits there. "Ah, that sounds very familiar. I oscillate in my language studies as well with French being honored as my current victim, but I have been in hiatus for the last year. Plenty of language texts in my home as I cannot resist the patterns and sounds of the world. Besides, the urge to read original languages is strong as I know that there is no substitute for the soundscape/turns/structure/meanings of the original language. Of course, my Latin and ancient Greek have their own substantial realm on these shelves. I must admit that ancient Greek always has intimidated me, but the urge to learn has always persisted. However, I am literally a complete in ancient Greek. By the way, they just added Greek to Duolingo! It seems to be a good way to learn basic aspects (sounds and alphabet) although it is no substitute for the real thing. If you can push me in the right direction I would be willing to bleed for the Ancient Greek language. LOL
And thanks for the riveting story of Tantalus and Pelops! I had completely forgotten that aspect. The ancient Greeks really had a fondness for curses! Perhaps the land was so rough and hard to live in so divine attributions were necessary to explain the demise of the families? Who knows! At least it makes for an intriguing mythology in every way possible!!! :)
Agamemnon Arrives:So many amazing and powerful phrases within the Lattimore translation:
The melting shafts of the eye's glances
*gulp* - that is a powerful metaphor which will linger in my mind for years to come.
So many things to ponder here but I am trying to move onwards. It is interesting how cold Agamemnon appears to be as he arrives in Argos. He seemingly is not very interested in meeting his wife or to reconnect to her. In contrast Clytaemestra is very respectful and honorable in approaching her returning husband. She approaches him with a speech of love and sadness [excerpts]:
"Grave gentlemen of Argolis assembled here
I take no shame to speak aloud before you all
the love I bear my husband. In the lapse of time
modesty fades; it is human
.......
Now, my beloved one,
step from your chariot; yet let not your foot, my lord,
sacker of Ilium, touch the earth.
.....
In all things else, my heart's unsleeping care shall act
with the gods' aid to set aright what fate ordained."
[Lattimore]
In retrospect I sense that the very last line can be interpreted in two very different ways. Regardless, Clytaemestra seems very measured, honorable and respectful in her first encounter with her husband. After all, ten years have passed! My first reading was one of love and respect although going back to this passage I read it through a lens of deception and double meaning. It is interesting how one can read it both ways. What do you think?
Here is the last line again in the Morshead translation:
"For what remains,
Zeal unsubdued by sleep shall nerve my hand
To work as right and as the gods command."
Here is all of Clytaemestra's address to Agamemnon in the Morshead translation (which certainly has its own beauty compared to Lattimore's):(Clytemnestra enters from the palace, followed by maidens bearing crimson robes.)
Clytemnestra:
Old men of Argos, lieges of our realm,
Shame shall not bid me shrink lest ye should see
The love I bear my lord. Such blushing fear
Dies at the last from hearts of human kind.
From mine own soul and from no alien lips,
I know and will reveal the life I bore.
Reluctant, through the lingering livelong years,
The while my lord beleaguered Ilion’s wall.
First, that a wife sat sundered from her lord,
In widowed solitude, was utter woe
And woe, to hear how rumour’s many tongues
All boded evil — woe, when he who came
And he who followed spake of ill on ill,
Keening Lost, lost, all lost! thro’ hall and bower.
Had this my husband met so many wounds,
As by a thousand channels rumour told,
No network e’er was full of holes as he.
Had he been slain, as oft as tidings came
That he was dead, he well might boast him now
A second Geryon of triple frame,
With triple robe of earth above him laid —
For that below, no matter — triply dead,
Dead by one death for every form he bore.
And thus distraught by news of wrath and woe,
Oft for self-slaughter had I slung the noose,
But others wrenched it from my neck away.
Hence haps it that Orestes, thine and mine,
The pledge and symbol of our wedded troth,
Stands not beside us now, as he should stand.
Nor marvel thou at this: he dwells with one
Who guards him loyally; ’tis Phocis’ king,
Strophius, who warned me erst, Bethink thee, queen,
What woes of doubtful issue well may fall
Thy lord in daily jeopardy at Troy,
While here a populace uncurbed may cry,
"Down witk the council, down!" bethink thee too,
’Tis the world’s way to set a harder heel
On fallen power.
For thy child’s absence then
Such mine excuse, no wily afterthought.
For me, long since the gushing fount of tears
Is wept away; no drop is left to shed.
Dim are the eyes that ever watched till dawn,
Weeping, the bale-fires, piled for thy return,
Night after night unkindled. If I slept,
Each sound — the tiny humming of a gnat,
Roused me again, again, from fitful dreams
Wherein I felt thee smitten, saw thee slain,
Thrice for each moment of mine hour of sleep.
All this I bore, and now, released from woe,
I hail my lord as watch-dog of a fold,
As saving stay-rope of a storm-tossed ship,
As column stout that holds the roof aloft,
As only child unto a sire bereaved,
As land beheld, past hope, by crews forlorn,
As sunshine fair when tempest’s wrath is past,
As gushing spring to thirsty wayfarer.
So sweet it is to ’scape the press of pain.
With such salute I bid my husband hail
Nor heaven be wroth therewith! for long and hard
I bore that ire of old.
Sweet lord, step forth,
Step from thy car, I pray — nay, not on earth
Plant the proud foot, O king, that trod down Troy!
Women! why tarry ye, whose task it is
To spread your monarch’s path with tapestry?
Swift, swift, with purple strew his passage fair,
That justice lead him to a home, at last,
He scarcely looked to see.
(The attendant women spread the tapestry.)
For what remains,
Zeal unsubdued by sleep shall nerve my hand
To work as right and as the gods command.
Mod
So many amazing and powerful phrases within the Lattimore translation:
.."
I just LOVE Lattimore's translations (have I said that before ;-) ). I can appreciate Morshead's, but for me, they don't come close.
Haaze wrote: "It is interesting how one can read it both ways. What do you think?..."
If you don't know the story, it could be read both ways. But the Greek audience would have been intimately familiar with the story. That very familiarity would make Clytemnestra's words even more chilling. They would know what Clytemnestra had actually done and her intentions. To have her then pretend to respect and honour her husband would have been appalling.
I've noticed when I read Greek literature, the Greeks have no respect for "spoilers". ;-)
Mod
(Clytemnestra enters from the palace, followed by maide..."
Wow! Did you type all this yourself? Thanks! I love comparing the different translations.
Cleo wrote: "Wow! Did you type all this yourself? Thanks! I love comparing the different translation"Copy and paste, of course! :)
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aesc...
I am having a great time comparing translations as well. This goes especially for poetry/verses as the translator tends to butcher the original a great deal. It is difficult to convey poetry. I suspect that is one of the difficulties with Attic Greek. I just learned that the word order in a sentence is relatively unimportant as each word is tagged with an ending that allows the listener to recognize the grammatical function. Thereby the author can combine and polish the wording in unique combinations impossible to accomplish in English. I may have misunderstood all this matter but I was definitely intrigued. So different compared to English!
Cleo wrote: "If you don't know the story, it could be read both ways. But the Greek audience would have been intimately familiar with the story."Well, I was somewhat familiar with the story. Besides, Guérin's painting speaks for itself. Interestingly, even though I knew her intent, I felt that the wording was leaning towards a warm welcome. I didn't think about the reaction of the audience as you so amply suggested. That is a really good point. They must have been awed by her audacity in the light of her intent. I would love to have been in the theater during the performance!!!
We need more Agamemnon enthusiasts!!!!! 
Mod
I sure was! I read her words in the same manner as Cleo. I read her words as an inauthentic warm welcome--conniving intents masked as love and warmth.
Interesting discussion about the various translations too. I have never had the privilege of understanding Greek, either modern or ancient. So I picked up both the Fagles and Lattimore translations, compared a few passages, and felt the Lattimore lacked flow. Perhaps it is better in the sense of retaining the original meaning, but it is certainly more difficult. I wanted to choose the translation that was more conducive to my actually finishing the lengthy works. I figured finishing a not-so-accurate translation is better than not reading Homer at all. :)
Mod
..."
Oh boy, do they! I posted a Victor Hugo poem on my blog and the translation conveyed little of the original. It was very disheartening! :-(
The mask is nothing like I expected Agamemnon to look. That's what I get for watching Troy, I guess! Thanks for posting it!
Cleo wrote: "Oh boy, do they! I posted a Victor Hugo poem on my blog and the translation conveyed little of the original. It was very disheartening! :-(The mask is nothing like I expected Agamemnon to look. That's what I get for watching Troy, I guess! Thanks for posting it! "
I guess a translator of poetry has to sacrifice either meaning or style. It must be a tough choice.
I doubt if the mask was Agamemnon's. Schliemann seems to have jumped on the idea of discovering Greek civilization with vengeance as every object he found was literally directly related to people and events in Homer's epics. But....maybe.... besides hammering out a face in a gold mask must be as a severe challenge as translating poetry!!!
Kenia wrote: " wanted to choose the translation that was more conducive to my actually finishing the lengthy works. "@Kenia
I know what you mean. Lattimore has a raw power, but can at times be harder to comprehend. I hit passages where my mind goes...."what?"... . I have to slow down a circle the words like a hawk with my pencil and ponder, ponder, ponder. I think my new style is to truck through the whole thing and then return for a second time to ponder. Notes and explanations tend to slow me down severely. I do sense that the more modern language in e.g. Fagles (rounded and more comprehensible) speeds things up, but I feel as if I am missing something. Again, only a reader of ancient Greek really knows the difference (and I don't belong to that privileged group). Like Cleo always states: more time please! :)
Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages
Books mentioned in this topic
The Iliad (other topics)Prometheus Bound (other topics)
The play was first performed in 458 BC at the Dionysia festival in Athens. Aeschylus beat Sophocles that year for 1st place in the Tragedy category. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia)