The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
This topic is about
Emma
Jane Austen Collection
>
Emma - Introductory Note - Vol 1, Chapter IX
date
newest »
newest »
Rosemarie wrote: @47/50 "...Sometimes annotations influence the way I look at a certain work...."But do tell us what you found when you googled "charades." I am still "clueless" about the humor/irony, just knowing Austen, am sure it is here. ;-(
Mod
Mod
a terrible pun.
The second is courtship, Emma was correct.
Kitty the fair but frozen maid...is chimney sweep, but don't get that one.
Rosemarie wrote: I am reading a version of Emma with no notes. Sometimes annotations influence the way I look at a certain work. Having read Emma before, this time I am looking for details and the way she writes. She manages to pack quite a punch in a few words.."Ditto, agree, ditto, agree. (One response for each of the four sentences, in case it was too truncated for you. )
I'm putting little smiley faces in the margins next to the particularly slyly witty comments she makes, and the page quickly fills up with them. If one is reading mostly for character and content, they can slip by. But on re-reading looking for them, they are like a pop rock for the brain.
Everyman wrote: "I'm putting little smiley faces in the margins next to the particularly slyly witty comments she makes, and the page quickly fills up with them. If one is reading mostly for character and content, they can slip by. But on re-reading looking for them, they are like a pop rock for the brain ..."I'd love it if you would share some of those with us, I love pop rocks : )
Emma wrote: "Janice(JG) wrote: "I don't think she's manipulative or controlling, I think she is very young and spoiled and without any ordinary experience of life...."Yes, I agree that she's not manipulative,..."
I agree too. This being my first read, I was expecting to dislike Emma (have seen a few adaptations) but I don't. She comes across to me as being very young/naive on certain topics. Yes, she is being selfish and prejudiced in relation to Harriet and Martin. What struck me more was the social hierarchy. It seems a very complicated dance around classes and what is permitted or not. Knightley can befriend Martin, but this one would not be an appropriate acquaintenance for Emma. Having had no contact with him, she doesn't know a thing about him and so misjudges him (due too to imagination, which if used a la Northanger Abbey will cause her trouble, as it seems with Elton).
I enjoyed her discussion with Knightley, each using interesting arguments, and shows her intelligence as well as inexperience. Her defence of Mr John Knightley as a good affectionate father is another example. Knightley seems to be the only one 'clever' enough to be able to 'spar' with her. And now that I typed this, the reverse could be said to be true too - Knightley would enjoy talking with Emma because she can hold her own. The only difference is age/life experience and that can be remedied with time.
Veronique wrote: "What struck me more was the social hierarchy. It seems a very complicated dance around classes and what is permitted or not. Knightley can befriend Martin, but this one would not be an appropriate acquaintenance for Emma. ."Yes, the social structure is very prominent on the surface, but underneath I'm not sure it's so much so. Mr. Martin rents a large farm from Mr. Knightley, which makes him much lower in formal class, but Knightley isn't at all proud and is very good friends with him. I think Emma overdoes it when she says she couldn't visit at Abbey Mill farm. That's nonsense; of course she could if she wanted to, and of course she could have Harriet visit Hartfield if she wanted her to. Maybe not in London, but in the country she's free to visit whomever she wants to. I see it just as a strategy to turn Harriet away from Mr. Martin; obviously she's very interested in the proposal, but when Emma says "you have to choose between him and me," I see that as just Emma putting on the pressure.
Janice(JG) wrote: "I'd love it if you would share some of those with us, I love pop rocks : )"Well. Here are few of many I marked, though they may not show their full sly wit out of context:
Ch.1: "there was some satisfaction in considering with what self-denying, generous friendship she had always wished and promoted the match." Yeah, right.
Ch 2: Miss Churchill, however, being of age, and with the full command of her fortune—though her fortune bore no proportion to the family-estate—was not to be dissuaded from the marriage, and it took place, to the infinite mortification of Mr. and Mrs. Churchill, who threw her off with due decorum. I love that "due decorum."
" He had made his fortune, bought his house, and obtained his wife;" "obtained" a wife -- delicious.
Ch 3: "Mrs. Goddard was the mistress of a School—not of a seminary, or an establishment, or any thing which professed, in long sentences of refined nonsense, to combine liberal acquirements with elegant morality, upon new principles and new systems—and where young ladies for enormous pay might be screwed out of health and into vanity—but a real, honest, old-fashioned Boarding-school, where a reasonable quantity of accomplishments were sold at a reasonable price, and where girls might be sent to be out of the way, and scramble themselves into a little education, without any danger of coming back prodigies." I love that snide "screwed out of health and into vanity," buying a reasonable quantity of accomplishments at a reasonable price, and the girls in no danger of coming back prodigies. Delicious.
"who were fetched and carried home so often, that Mr. Woodhouse thought it no hardship for either James or the horses. Had it taken place only once a year, it would have been a grievance. "
On Harriet: "so artlessly impressed by the appearance of every thing in so superior a style to what she had been used to, that she must have good sense,.." So good sense is proved by being artlessly impressed by Emma's style.
"He loved to have the cloth laid, because it had been the fashion of his youth, but his conviction of suppers being very unwholesome made him rather sorry to see any thing put on it; and while his hospitality would have welcomed his visitors to every thing, his care for their health made him grieve that they would eat."
Ch 5: Knightley to now Mrs. Weston: "you were preparing yourself to be an excellent wife all the time you were at Hartfield. You might not give Emma such a complete education as your powers would seem to promise; but you were receiving a very good education from her, on the very material matrimonial point of submitting your own will, and doing as you were bid;" A three-smile comment, on Emma's bossiness, Miss Taylor's submission to her putative pupil, and his concept of what being a good wife entails.
Those are a couple from the early chapters, and I hope you enjoy them.
Mod
Everyman wrote: "Janice(JG) wrote: "I'd love it if you would share some of those with us, I love pop rocks : )"Well. Here are few of many I marked, though they may not show their full sly wit out of context: ...."
Yes, these are great, I noted many of them myself ( but not all of them), and I love her tongue-in-cheek appraisals of people, institutions, and things.
As the chapters continue I find I am more and more bemused by Mr. Woodhouse, and by Emma's patience with him. She may be many things, most of which are not so admirable, but I'm beginning to think she is a saint for putting up with -- even pampering -- her father. Austen's portrayal of a hypochondriac is amazing in its paradoxes and contrarieties. It would be very funny if it wasn't so endlessly annoying.
Janice(JG) wrote: "As the chapters continue I find I am more and more bemused by Mr. Woodhouse, and by Emma's patience with him. She may be many things, most of which are not so admirable, but I'm beginning to think she is a saint for putting up with -- even pampering -- her father.."That's certainly a point in her favor. We should all have daughters so attentive when we get old and decrepit. Although I do wonder how old Mr. Woodhouse really is in physical years (in behavioral years he's at least in his 80s.) Emma is, what, 20, nearly 21, and her sister is a few years older, say 26. Mr. Woodhouse should then be probably between 56 and 66 if he had children starting at age 30 or 40. But he certainly seems much older than that.
Mod
Why just daughters
Deborah wrote: "Why just daughters ."That's a great 21st, and maybe 20th, century question. (You wouldn't have thought to ask it in the 18th and 19th centuries.)
I guess it was pretty automatic, partly because it was in the context of Emma where it is a daughter providing that support, partly because in my family situation it would indeed be daughters and not son, but also partly because when it comes to family roles I guess I'm still at least partly a gender traditionalist at heart. Not totally; I changed diapers, bathed kids, and otherwise parented in ways unthought of by previous generations, I do a lot of the housework my father would never have considered doing, I fully supported my wife's and now my daughters' careers, and I never even consider trying to make unilateral family decisions. But there is also, I agree, a sexist aspect of me which thinks of mothering and adult caretaking aspects as primarily a feminine role.
So in general, I will still say daughters and hope that in my case if it's ever necessary it will indeed be my daughters who will step up.
Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Why just daughters ."That's a great 21st, and maybe 20th, century question. (You wouldn't have thought to ask it in the 18th and 19th centuries.)..."
Hmm... my reaction is that "You" may be a bit presumptuous, but I should let Deborah speak for herself! ;-o "Most" still would have struck me as a safer word choice.
I have been listening these past few weeks to a local Islamic leader deliver to a community group the course on Islam he also teaches at a nearby college. The session today was on the role of women -- much of it touched on the intersection and interaction of religion and culture. One of the points made this morning that seems relevant here is the gender-based differences over time and culture in the economic contributions made to family and the social conventions and even laws that have resulted from those differences.
On my (quasi-urgent) TBR stack is an autographed copy of Anne-Marie Slaughter's Unfinished Business: Women Men Work Family. A few of us recently had the privilege of hearing her and her husband speak to some of the challenges surrounding changing gender roles in the family and in 21st century economies.
Lily wrote: "Hmm... my reaction is that "You" may be a bit presumptuous, but I should let Deborah speak for herself! ;-o "Most" still would have struck me as a safer word choice.."
Correct. It would have been.
I have never read Emma before not being a Jane Austen fan in the past. But being in groups like this is thankfully broadening my taste. I am starting to see the intelligence and ability that Jane had and am enjoying working my way through her books.I am enjoying Emma and I agree with Janice(JG) and a lot of what she said. I like Emma although I can see her less attractive characteristics. She is a little full of her own opinion being superior to others and is somewhat of a snob; but I knew many young girls very similar to this when I was growing up but they still made good friends because of having a good heart at the core. I think Emma has a good heart although she is a little off aim with her 'attempts' at doing good unto others. Of course the society and time she is living in is responsible for a lot of her beliefs and attitudes; we are all a product of our experience. I am looking forward to and hoping that Emma experiences something that shakes her current views and gives her a more open mind and belief system.
Mod
Tracey, you make a very good point. Emma is a product of her society and times. Also, she has never really had an authority figure in her life. Her father is obsessesed with his health and her governess was not authoritative, more of a companion than a teacher.
Some sentences I found quite telling about Emma:"produced the portfolio containing her various attempts at portraits for not one of them had been finished."
"steadiness had always been wanting; and in nothing had she approached the degree of excellence which she would have been glad to command, and ought not to have failed of." ch 6
"it would have been a loss of a friend to me. I could not have visited Mrs. Robert Martin of Abbey-Mill Farm." ch 7
"a man always imagines a woman to be ready for anybody who asks her." ch 8
"it was much easier to chat than to study; much pleasanter to let her imagination range and work at Harriet's fortune, than to be labouring to enlarge or exercise it on sober facts." ch 9
I find it kind of a shock to think back over 50 years plus and realize "yes, there have been incidents similar to these in my life." Don't know that I have made such connections before -- was usually more, "is this for real, on how people behave?"(view spoiler)
Hm, I don't really get all the Emma-bashing.Am I the only one who owns more instruments that I can play, more books on my To-Be-Read-Pile that I can read in three years (and even more on my wishlist) and quite some acquaintances (my parents neighbours come to my mind), where it's really hard to keep a calm face to their idiotic remarks?
Lily wrote: "I find it kind of a shock to think back over 50 years plus and realize "yes, there have been incidents similar to these in my life." Don't know that I have made such connections before -- was usual..."I think that's one of the great thing about Austen's writing. We really can see people we have known and even bits of ourselves in her characters. Which is probably why we find her so funny.
(Your "spoiler" was delicately done. It does refer to a scene in the next section, but you give nothing away.)
One of the marks of all great writers, not just Austen, is that they can make us empathise with their characters whatever the period they were writing in. Classics become classics because of their appeal over decades and centuries.
Mod
Am I the only one who owns more instruments that I can play, more books on my To-Be-Read-Pile that I can read in three years (and even more on my wishl..."
I'm with you on this
Barlanda wrote: "Hm, I don't really get all the Emma-bashing.Am I the only one who..."
The different takes on Emma can be seen as "bashing" or as seeing her in a realistic light. Emma is not without faults, but she is not without goodness either. She is like the rest of humans.
I have read books where the heroine is "perfect." After a while that gets not only boring, but you get this foul taste in the mouth that this is not real, it is a false picture of life. Emma is sufficiently real that we can identify with her on her faults (not necessarily all as our situations and temperaments are different). Who hasn't jumped to wrong conclusions or stuck their foot in their mouth...
Yes I will admit to having books that has not been read. While I have gotten better, they still keep coming in.
We all have difficult people in our life or is it we ourselves who are the difficult ones? Miss Bates and a few other of Jane Austen's characters are very excentric, but I cannot think of any that are truly perfect. They all have some flaws with which we can identify. For me that is the charm of Austen's writing.
Mod
Mr Woodhouse is able to be demanding and unreasonable because Emma, like thousands of women of that time, is dependent upon him. We see many examples in the literature of this period of difficult and objectionable parents, aunts and uncles who, because they have legacies to bestow, treat their potential beneficiaries badly. We are used to having our own incomes and not being dependent upon parents after the age of, say, 21 or for childcare services later in life. Similarly, our parents. aunts and uncles work and do not, in general, sit around moaning and expecting us to be at their beck and call. If they did we might visit them infrequently or even cut them out of our lives because we are not dependent upon them. It may also mean that elderly relatives today, at least in the West, are less demanding and more inclined to be conciliatory than in previous times.So is Emma just being a caring daughter or is she also thinking about her future, her 'dowry'? Is Austen pointing to her daughterly qualities or to her dependence, because 'it is a truth universally acknowledged' that women then were dependent upon fathers and husbands however difficult they were
Mod
I think it's both. Austen has deliberately made her flawed but also wanted to balance that with some goodness while also using it as a means to capture the dependency of her day. We know from her other books she sees the flaws of her society and accurately captures them.
Madge wrote: "So is Emma just being a caring daughter or is she also thinking about her future..."Don't you think it is a little bit of both? I don't think we should doubt that she loves her father dearly. At the same time she sees his idiosyncrasies and figures out ways of getting around them. Mr. Woodhouse thinks the world of Emma, so he is easy to sweet talk.
Emma is not about to jeopardize her position in her home. She is very comfortable with her situation and has very little incentive to rebel.
Mod
But then, as I said earlier, she is emotionally immature and has never faced any serious challenges in her life. Living in the country as she does, she lives a very privileged life.
Mod
Don't you think it is a little bit of both? I don't think we should doubt that she loves her fath..."
Just a note. Emma can't jeopardize her home. Where would a single woman go? And she might be disinherited.
Madge wrote: "Mr Woodhouse is able to be demanding and unreasonable because Emma, like thousands of women of that time, is dependent upon him. We see many examples in the literature of this period of difficult a..."I don't think Mr. Woodhouse is treating Emma badly, nor do I thinks she is so caring of him because of an inheritance. Rather, I see real affection there on both sides, and on his part a learned helplessness that I'm sure developed long before Emma was old enough to become his loving enabler.
Deborah wrote: Just a note. Emma can't jeopardize her home. Where would a single woman go? And she might be disinherited."In theory, perhaps. But I don't see that as a realistic aspect of the family relationship Austen offers us here. Actually, I think here the shoe is almost on the other foot. I see him as more dependent on her than vice versa. One of her reasons for intending never to marry may well be what she can see would happen to her father if she followed her sister to London, for example. He would fall apart.
So while in some situations women of that era did have to stay even where they didn't want to for financial reasons, I don't see that here.
Everyman wrote: "Madge wrote: "Mr Woodhouse is able to be demanding and unreasonable because Emma, like thousands of women of that time, is dependent upon him. We see many examples in the literature of this period ..."The discussion about Mr Woodhouse in Week 2 seems to have overtaken this one. Emma's constant attention to her father seems to go beyond daughterly affection.
Janice(JG) wrote: "Frances wrote: "In reply to earlier points, I don't think Emma is acting out of cruelty or meanness, I just find her self-satisfaction and drive to manipulate those around her to be irritating and ..."I am late in joining here, but I appreciate the discussion about why Emma is so much into other people's marriage choices.
She must be like that because she did not have any other occupation and needed to feel useful and helpful. Yes, is was like a charity project, she just thought she was doing something good for other people.
This reminds me of parents advising teenagers, not to be mean, but just to help them. And mothers-in-laws wanting to advise about grandchildren, when they should rather not. (There are even nations telling other nations how they should run their country, sometimes a misunderstood help.)
Mod
Mod
Charlotte that's how I view her too
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
Unfinished Business: Women Men Work Family (other topics)Far From the Madding Crowd (other topics)
But do tell us more about what you found out about "charades." I'm still "clueless " (beyond recognizing humor I haven't gotten yet). ;-(