The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Emma
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Emma - Introductory Note - Vol 1, Chapter IX
Rose wrote: "Emma is usually seen as a more natural, less complicated character. ..."I have no idea what writers of those words meant. Emma seems to me a rather artificial and very complicated, albeit naive, character. "Artificial" in the sense that as a spoiled essentially only daughter, her life insulated her from the pushes and pulls of "real life", which she must ultimately learn. "Complicated" in the sense that she is intelligent, bright, even caring, within the parameters of her status as a well-cared-for young woman of her time and place in history. Yet, I suspect words can be woven into justifying an opposing characterization.
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I have read only the first chapter and noticed a few details.
Emma likes to act as matchmaker; she lives with her father, who is quite selfish; she has a married sister and her former companion is also married.
I can imagine the evening must get dreary at times for Emma, with only her father for company, and no female friend.
Jane Austen has given us a great deal to digest in one short chapter.
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I have no idea what writers of those words meant. Emma seems to me a rather artificial and very complicated, a..."
I have to disagree. She's running her father's household which means hiring and managing servants, balancing the household budget, and basically running the house. Her life is very typical of the time period. I wouldn't call her insulated from life at all.
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Deborah wrote: "...She's running her father's household which means hiring and managing servants, balancing the household budget, and basically running the house...."Well, the story opens with "...had lived nearly twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her."
Until very recently, Miss Taylor (now Mrs. Weston) seems to have been highly responsible for the household affairs, in part as evidenced Mr. Woodhouse's seeming despair over her departure, although Austin does write Emma "had, in consequence of her sister's marriage, been mistress of his house from a very early period."
Chapter III certainly presents Emma as presiding over a smoothly run, well oiled household of comfort, meals, and hospitality. However, the household seems to have an loyal and efficient staff (e.g., James; the hint about the kitchen servants is its timely delivery of the supper's oysters and chicken over which Emma can graciously hostess - p21), permitting Emma to use her time for pursuits such as her sketching and the leisure of friendship and conversation. In the midst of this, I see Mr. Knightly as consistently (and rather irritatingly, but fairly gently) chiding and taunting Emma about her world views and perceptions.
So the differences between our perceptions are probably ones of emphasis, Deborah? Or more deep seated? We shall pursue as we follow our young maiden's path.
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Of course Emma is young, and as far as the discussion of her responsibilities above, the fact that she may have helped run a country household still leaves her very sheltered and naive. The biggest loss she has experienced is her governess moving a mile away. And she has no clue ( as in the movie "Clueless") how much she can hurt someone else's feelings.
As someone who was never an "in" or popular girl, in real life I probably would despise someone who acted like Emma. But I think it's the way Austen takes us inside her that wins me over.
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Well, the story opens with "...."
According to the annotated edition, Emma has been managing the household since she was 12, which includes hostessing. Her governess would have initially assisted, then turned it over to Emma completed. Not an easy task by the description in the annotation.
In addition accomplishments such as drawing were expected of women in her class. Yes, they had a great deal of leisure time by our standards. It appears she was no different from other women in her social strata.
Deborah wrote: "According to the annotated edition, ..."I presume the annotated edition is drawing on knowledge of the era as well as from the text itself. I do not have the annotated version of Emma, but I know David M. Shapard provides some of wonderful details on those Austen novels he has done. (Not Emma, so far as I can spot tonight?) I know we also get many clues from the way the text says things, from our experiences with other Austen works, and from other authors like Gaskell and the Brontes. Certainly any young girl having lost her mother at an early age has a particular set of experiences regarding independence, which Austen gives us to try to grasp uniquely for Emma.
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My antipathy towards her in this read is probably heightened by the fact the I am concurrently reading Far from the Madding Crowd with some of you over at the Victorians group. The hero of that book (or at least the opening chapters), Gabriel Oak, is a very similar character to Robert Martin, and to see Emma meddle in Mr. Martin's affairs and rob him of a wife who would clearly have accepted him if she had not been chosen to be Emma's pet annoys me more than it did on first reading the book.
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I presume the annotated edition is drawing on knowledge of the era as well as from the text itself. I do not have the annotated version of ..."
I'm using the David M. Shapard annotation,
I just want to shake my head and mutter, "Oh Emma Emma Emma." I don't think she's manipulative or controlling, I think she is very young and spoiled and without any ordinary experience of life. She really does think she's doing Harriet a favor. Emma's judgmental attitude can be laid at the feet of the class-based society she grew up in. If she is awful, she is only a reflection of the awfulness that makes up the society that surrounds her. She is the perfect product of the times.
Janice(JG) wrote: "...Emma's judgmental attitude can be laid at the feet of the class-based society she grew up in. If she is awful, she is only a reflection of the awfulness that makes up the society that surrounds her. She is the perfect product of the times. ..."I've always thought that was Austen's point, but that may be unfair to lay on the author.
Deborah wrote: "I'm using the David M. Shapard annotation,..."Ah, good! I'll keep looking, although I'm not sure I'll make the investment right now. I have at least two, if not more, of his others.
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Yes, that's the thing- she always means well. She isn't trying to make anyone miserable. Robert Martin is invisible to her as a real person with feelings. She sees in him, and in everyone, what she wants to see. Some of the blame for that could be the society as Janice said, and some is her upbringing. I often have the feeling in current times that those people who are most sure of what others should do to improve their lives haven't had to deal with really difficult issues themselves.
Janice(JG) wrote: "I don't think she's manipulative or controlling, I think she is very young and spoiled and without any ordinary experience of life...."Yes, I agree that she's not manipulative, although she may think she is, when she regards herself as such a supreme matchmaker. I remember when I first read this at the age of 16 or 17 being quite overawed by Emma's confidence at the grand old age of 20. I didn't like her character at all then.
Many years later, I find I have much more sympathy for her - she is really very young, and it's clear from the first page, where we're told that she thinks a little too well of herself, that she's going to get her come-uppance.
I particularly feel sympathy for her lack of companionship - a very real problem given the rather infantile nature of her father. Her patience and care with him indicate an unselfish side of her character which counteracts the self-absorption she shows elsewhere, even her adoption of Harriet being more to give herself something to do than to benefit Harriet.
But Emma's shallowness - eg in placing Harriet's beauty above her intellect, and her laziness about educating either Harriet or herself - seems to me now entirely believeable in a 20 year old used to having her own way. (20 year-olds may not agree.)
Emma wrote: "Janice(JG) wrote: "I don't think she's manipulative or controlling, I think she is very young and spoiled and without any ordinary experience of life...."Yes, I agree that she's not manipulative,..."
I can agree with most of what is said, except Emma not being controlling and manipulative.
(view spoiler)
I am hoping to be able to join in this discussion, but a little tough because I am currently participating in the Pride and Prejudice discussion on Republic of Pemberley and am assigned Persuasion for the next meeting of my reading group. I like to read different editions when I can, so this time I would read Emma in the annotated edition from Harvard University Press, edited by Bharat Tandon.Emma was always the one Austen novel I hated, but I am growing into it late in life. I probably still enjoy Clueless more, but appreciating the novel now!
Anyone wonders why Austen used 'handsome' to describe Emma? I mean she could have used loads of more feminine adjectives and yet she went for that one... That first sentence could nearly be used for a man. Does that mean we need to see her outside what we expect, use different rules?So far (I've just started) Emma comes across as taking care of her father and running their home, with all the tasks that involves, as Deborah said. She therefore has a measure of 'power', and a social class (highest in the neighbourhood I think). On the other side however she is very young and naive, having no real experience of Life. This combination is quite potent and I guess this is what the narrator is hinting at on the first page (the danger, however, was at present so unperceived).
I think matchmaking is probably the most important topic for a woman (can hear Mrs Bennet while typing this) at that time (only one allowed?) and so I can understand why Emma would fill her head with it. What else could she do that would be as exciting?
Reading on...
Veronique wrote: "Anyone wonders why Austen used 'handsome' to describe Emma? I mean she could have used loads of more feminine adjectives and yet she went for that one... That first sentence could nearly be used fo..."Wonderful question! A hypothesis, and a hypothesis only -- it suggests the aggressive lead role Emma takes in attempting to direct the lives of others. ("Aggressive" is stronger than the idea I am trying to communicate, but rather more along the lines of "not passive," manly in the sense of being in charge, perhaps more so than even her father in their household.)
It is also possible there has been a shift in the use of "handsome" over time?
This comes from an online dictionary assessment of synonyms:
"The words preceding refer more commonly to women than to men; handsome and good-looking refer about equally to men, women, and things. handsome suggests a pleasing appearance, due proportions, and a measure of dignity and taste.
[Cleveland was … a he-man, handsome with a certain bull-like pulchritude, which was the outer symbol of his inner courage — W. A. White]
[she was very handsome; a bold beauty, with shining black hair, red lips, and eyes not afraid of men — George Meredith]
[handsome houses rich in mahogany, plate, and pier glasses — Allan Nevins & H. S. Commager]
Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged, s.v. “beautiful,” accessed May 16, 2016, http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com.
A look at the definition of "handsome" suggests why it was a good choice for Austen, but the entry is rather long to quote here.
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Frances wrote: "...This may be a product of her times, but I think it is also somewhat her personality. ..."Which personality, of course, is a creation of Jane Austen. Perhaps this applies:
"By the time that she began writing Emma, Austen was no longer responding to other novelists, she was in new territory, in dialogue with her own earlier novels. She had been steeped in the fiction of the 18th and early 19th centuries, and in her earliest work she wrote against the novels of sensibility or the gothic fiction that she knew so well. But in the creative furore that saw her complete her last four novels in five years, she left the conventions of existing fiction behind. She began work on Emma before she had even received the proofs of Mansfield Park. That novel’s heroine, Fanny Price, was reticent, self-abnegating, powerless and often silent or absent. As if in response to her own experiment, she now created a heroine who is assertive, dominant, all too powerful. Emma Woodhouse thrusts herself forward in the novel’s title and its very first sentence.
"Her viewpoint is so dominant that it takes several readings before you realise how subtly we are invited to imagine how Emma looks to some of the other characters...."
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015...
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According to the annotated edition, handsome was commonly used in this way and does not have the connotation we would place on it today
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The yeomanry are precisely the order of people with whom I feel I can have nothing to do. A degree or two lowere, and a creditable appearance might interest me; I might hope to be uselful to their families in some way or other. But a farmer can need none of my help, and is therfore in one sense as much above my notice as in every other he is below it.
Emma is full of prejudices and a real snob--very patronizing as well. I only hope that she doesn't spoil Harriet, who would be a good wife to Mr. Martin, the way she is now--unspoiled and natural.
Lily quoted, “Austen was no longer responding to other novelists, she was in new territory, in dialogue with her own earlier novels.”I’ve long felt that a lot of Emma was in dialogue with her uncompleted fragment of a decade earlier, The Watsons. The heroines have the same name but radically different situations in life, and there are many parallels and contrasts that I won’t get into yet for fear of spoiling.
Frances wrote: "In reply to earlier points, I don't think Emma is acting out of cruelty or meanness, I just find her self-satisfaction and drive to manipulate those around her to be irritating and unattractive. I ..."It occurs to me that Emma might be playing at being a "grown up" who contributes to her community and her neighbors because that's how she sees the manifestation of female maturity. This would make Harriet her own personal charitable project.
I think Emma was blissfully ignorant of the pain she was inflicting on both Harriet and Robert Martin with her interference. I also think Mr. Knightley shook her certainty a little, and I'm hoping that the next section might correct some of Emma's damage.
Btw, I get the sense that Knightley's feelings for Emma are more invested than we are seeing at the moment... he is too interested in her behavior for a casual acquaintanceship. I'm going to keep an eye on him.
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I actually felt that Fanny Price, for all her disadvantages and powerlessness, showed remarkable strength and steadfastness in sticking to her principles and in striving to help others in her family. While Emma has all the advantages of wealth, beauty and privilege on her side, I think that Fanny made much more of her limited situation and her poor-relation status.
Rosemarie, while I agree that Harriet is very young, I think that she had formed an attachment to Robert Martin and that when she received the proposal of marriage she was excited and expecting to accept, but was talked out of this by Emma's response. Her situation appears to be one of a hanger-on at the school who has finished her education and is now waiting for something to happen in her life-and marriage would be the ideal something for her (she doesn't seem cut out for governessing or teaching, and while she could clearly become a paid companion to someone like Emma, I think most young women would prefer to have their own home).
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Emma knows best and Harriet follows, for now. Arkady found his own way--will
Harriet?
Lily wrote: "Emma seems to me a rather artificial and very complicated, albeit naive, character. ... "Complicated" in the sense that she is intelligent, bright, even caring, within the parameters of her status as a well-cared-for young woman of her time and place in history. ."She is all that, but I don't see that as the same as complicated. She is largely undisciplined (consider her failure to carry through on so many things -- reading lists, music, drawing), she takes credit for things she has little or no influence over (Miss Taylor marrying Mr. Weston), and there are some other things I can't mention because they would be spoilers, but I see her as having quite a simple, uni-directional mind without much self-control. Almost the opposite of complicated; I think Austen lets us see through her quite clearly. Do you really have much question about where her mind is going and why?
Rosemarie wrote: "I can imagine the evening must get dreary at times for Emma, with only her father for company, and no female friend. ."And she seems to have very limited personal resources to fall back on. She has always had Miss Taylor to amuse herself with, who both by nature and by status as a paid governess/companion is obligated to provide amusement whenever it's wanted. But she doesn't read (she intends to but doesn't), she doesn't play the piano (she intends to, but doesn't), she doesn't draw (she dabbled for a bit but gave it up), she apparently doesn't do needlework; in short, she has no ability to amuse or entertain herself. Hence the need to go almost directly from a compliant Miss Taylor to a compliant Harriet.
Deborah wrote: She's running her father's household which means hiring and managing servants, balancing the household budget, and basically running the house. ."Well, yes, but we have to wonder how much of the actual work of all this Miss Taylor actually did (but Emma assumed she was the one doing all the work). And if one has good servants, and with the money and status the Woodhouses have they probably have very good servants, I suspect that the house largely ran itself. It may be that she does more than we see her doing, but if so Austen keeps that side of her well hidden. My sense of her character is that she occasionally dabbles in housekeeping, but Miss Taylor and the servants took care of things pretty well on their own. Do you see anything Emma is shown doing which suggests otherwise?
Deborah wrote: "In addition accomplishments such as drawing were expected of women in her class. Yes, they had a great deal of leisure time by our standards."But she wasn't accomplished in much of anything, it seems -- she would intend to take up reading or music or drawing but let them slide. It seems that her main activities up to now have been social calls, bullying (if Robin is correct in that observation, I find it an interesting approach but am not sure it amounted to that) Miss Taylor and maybe others, all of whom she considered below her class, going on walks, being attentive to her father, but not exerting much effort in any direction to improve herself.
Everyman wrote: "... not exerting much effort in any direction to improve herself. ..."Well, I understand your point, but I do think you are being overly harsh on the young woman. She was not covertly disciplined, but her very circumstances and personality seemed to give her some comfortable graces. I suspect most of us know a few people like that. I can rather imagine enjoying her company -- so long as she did not turn her machinations my direction. Rather in the style of Mr. Knightly - enjoying her charm, but keeping at arms length. (I may giving her too much credit, but Emma seems to me a "good soul", albeit a badly misguided one, i.e., I don't see her as intentionally malicious, only stupidly so. I'm pretty much agreeing with Frances @22.)
@26 Abigail wrote: "Lily quoted, “Austen was no longer responding to other novelists, she was in new territory, in dialogue with her own earlier novels.”I’ve long felt that a lot of Emma was in dialogue with her unc..."
Abigail -- I hope you tell us more as we move through the novel. I want to learn what you have observed! (It will be beyond my own ability to observe and what I can only learn from others such as yourself. I was quoting @23.)
@24Deborah wrote: "According to the annotated edition, handsome was commonly used in this way and does not have the connotation we would place on it today ..."Thx, Deborah. @20 I had some vague recollection of reading of the migration in the meaning/usage of "handsome" over time -- probably from another Shapard annotation! (I really appreciate his work. Thank you for bringing it to this discussion. I've even loaned one of my copies to a high school student working on P&P.)
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Well, yes, but we have to wonder h..."
There is no proof of that in the text. Plus my annotated edition, based on her hostessing skills among other things, indicates she ran the household very well.
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Thx, Deborah. @20 I had some vague r..."
A friend recommended them to me, and I used one for a discussion on Northanger Abbey. After that I was hooked. I'm missing one of her works in annotated form. This reminds me to continue to look for it.
Lily wrote: "Veronique wrote: "Anyone wonders why Austen used 'handsome' to describe Emma? I mean she could have used loads of more feminine adjectives and yet she went for that one... That first sentence could..."Thanks Lily. Amazing what one little word can do :O)
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It is not grammatically correct, but it uses the word handsome in two different ways.
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Harriet and Mr. Martin. Emma has shown herself in her true colours to Knightly; he thought she had more sense than to give such bad advice to Harriet. She really has no idea what the real world is like because she has led such a sheltered and privileged existence. I really hope she doesn't spoil Harriet's chances for a meaningful life.
Lily wrote: I may giving her too much credit, but Emma seems to me a "good soul", albeit a badly misguided one, i.e., I don't see her as intentionally malicious, only stupidly so.."I agree with that. I see her main fault as being over-indulged and having little direction ("daughter of a most affectionate, indulgent father" and "the mildness of [Miss Taylor's] temper had hardly allowed her to impose any restraint"). Emma isn't seriously spoiled, yet, but she's used to getting her own way a bit too much--Mr. Knightley seems to be the only person with any ability to mention her weaknesses, but she basically blows him off. If she didn't have a naturally soft temper, she would be a terror.
Rosemarie wrote: "Here is a quote from chapter 4:The yeomanry are precisely the order of people with whom I feel I can have nothing to do. A degree or two lowere, and a creditable appearance might interest me; I mi..."
Good comment. Yes, she is a snob, though not a stuck-up nose snob. My marginal note to this passage was "arrogant condescension."
Deborah wrote: "Plus my annotated edition, based on her hostessing skills among other things, indicates she ran the household very well. "I haven't seen much of that in the actual text so far, but it's early days. Maybe we'll see more of it, particularly now that Miss Weston is gone and whatever tasks Miss Weston had taken on now will fall entirely on Emma.
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Regarding Mr. Elton, Emma really is "clueless".
Deborah wrote: " ...Plus my annotated edition, based on her hostessing skills among other things, indicates she ran the household very well...."Much as I love using Shepard, I do find sometimes needing to be wary of his allowing background to over-run text.
Veronique wrote: "...Amazing what one little word can do :O) ..."Isn't it wonderful! and scary, too...
Literature delivers its lessons in so many ways -- not necessarily even vaguely within the intentions of any author.
Mod
For example, when Mr. Elton talks about the charade and says:
I do not offer it for Miss Smith's collection, said he.
(from ch. 9)
And this is not the best example by any means.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
Unfinished Business: Women Men Work Family (other topics)Far From the Madding Crowd (other topics)
This week's reading is about: Notes + Volume 1, Chapters I - IX.
I am reading it from the 200-th Anniversary Annotated Edition and it has a good Introduction about the reception of Emma when it was published.
Austen cared greatly what her readers thought of her novels, and she was anxious about whether Emma would hold the same appeal as her previous works. “I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like,” her family recalled her saying when she began writing Emma, and when the novel was published she described herself as being in “a state of doubt as to her [Emma’s] reception in the World.” In particular, she was concerned that readers who enjoyed the sparkling Pride and Prejudice would consider Emma to be “inferior in Wit,” while those who admired the morally serious Mansfield Park would think Emma “very inferior in good Sense.”
Emma is usually seen as a more natural, less complicated character. From the chapters we already read, what expectations can we have?