Victorians! discussion
Archived Group Reads 2016
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FFTMC - Week 1
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An aside: there are two versions of this on Gutenberg. The one that comes up first for me is really badly formatted for reading online. If that comes up for you, don't despair, but go back and find this copy:http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/107
I am relatively new to reading Hardy, and have loved so much of it-I was very busy with my pencil underlining favourite passages. His descriptions of what it means to be a young man and farmer, his descriptions of nature and of the night sky, of Gabriel's sensations and feelings on discovering his love for Bathsheba, his attempt at courting " I'm only an every-day sort of man, and my only chance was in being the first comer"..."and though I am only an every-day sort of man I have got on a little since I was a boy. " Gabriel uttered 'a little' in a tone to show her that it was the complacent form of 'a great deal' feel very true and are written beautifully. Later, when Gabriel realizes the futility of his courtship once he has lost his farm, and is left to try to sell himself in the marketplace as a hired hand, we feel how far he has dropped in the world.There are often amusing asides It may have been observed that there is no regular path for getting out of love as there is for getting in. Some people look upon marriage as a short cut that way, but it has been known to fail. and his descriptions of daily life in the countryside or of regular folk sitting and passing time over a drink and conversation are often charming interludes, but he never for a moment idealizes or lets the reader forget what a hard life his people are leading, or how close the line is between having enough and living in want.
Rose wrote: "Hi, everyone!This week's reading is about: Chapters 1-8.
What did you think about this beginning?."
I'm going to reserve much of what I think about Oak for later, since it would be a spoiler, but I suggest as we read the book coming back to this opening and seeing whether we think Hardy has retained a believably consistent character, or whether Oak has changed in ways which aren't adequately justified by events.
I'm interested that he's called "Farmer" Oak when it appears that he is simply a shepherd. But maybe that's because, as he says in Chapter 3, he owns about a hundred acres, rather than being employed by another farm owner as a hired shepherd.
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The name means "daughter of seven" or "daughter of an oath." If I remember correctly, in Hebrew the term "to seven oneself" means to make an oath. In the OT story oaths are broken and made.
The story in a nutshell:
1) Bathsheba was beautiful
2) She was seduced by King David after he sees her bathing
3) Why the heck did she bathe in plain sight?
4) She got pregnant and her military husband was slain to cover up the seduction
5) King David was in Jerusalem and NOT participating in the military campaign, even though that was part of his job.
6) King David marries her, but the baby dies. Later she becomes the mother of King Samuel
The OT story has a lot of interconnections and failures on both sides. The parallels so far:
1) Gabriel meets Bathsheba Everdene at the Turnpike and he pays for her fee. Later he is spying on what is going on in the hut, though it is a surprise to him to see her there. Just like King David, he is struck by her beauty and doesn't know who she is and finds out later through others.
Also, Bathsheba is at a distance. King David sees her from the roof of his palace, and Gabriel first on top of the wagon and then inside the hut.
2) He almost dies of carbon monoxide poisoning and she rescues him. This in turn prompts his marriage proposal which she refuses. Did the OT Bathsheba have any recourse to refuse King David's initial advances?
By committing adultery with Bathsheba her marriage oath/vow is violated. (I don't recall if King David at this time was already married, had multiple wives, etc.)
Gabriel only proposes an oath - marriage.
The story in Weatherbury hasn't unfolded far enough yet to continue this exploration.
One of the many things that I enjoy about Hardy is his descriptions. They delight all the senses and capture emotion.The thin grasses, more or less coating the hill, were touched by the wind in breezes of differing powers, and almost of differing natures—one rubbing the blades heavily, another raking them piercingly, another brushing them like a soft broom. The instinctive act of humankind was to stand and listen, and learn how the trees on the right and the trees on the left wailed or chaunted to each other in the regular antiphonies of a cathedral choir; how hedges and other shapes to leeward then
The comparison of Hardy's Bathsheba to the OT Bathsheba is interesting. Oak is the unseen observer of.a beautiful woman just as King David is. But their subsequent actions are so different. I'm reminded of the difference in station: the shepherd farmer versus the king, the pastoral espial versus the palace intrigue. Naivety and humility drive the one, power and worldliness the other. Let's say Gabriel and David are equally aroused, one by a bare arm, one by a naked body. Gabriel attributes his response to the "want of a satisfactory form to fill an increasing void within him". I don't believe King David goes through any introspection. Now how this relates to living "far from the madding crowd".... I dare say somebody has done or will do a research paper on it. (chuckling)
Lisa wrote: "One of the many things that I enjoy about Hardy is his descriptions. They delight all the senses and capture emotion.The thin grasses, more or less coating the hill, were touched by the wind in ..."
Agreed, and that is a beautiful passage you've quoted. Hardy seems to delight in the language that he uses, and I assume this would be wonderful writing to read/have read aloud.
Linda wrote: "The comparison of Hardy's Bathsheba to the OT Bathsheba is interesting. Oak is the unseen observer of.a beautiful woman just as King David is. But their subsequent actions are so different. I'm rem..."If anything, by the end of this section the power balance is completely reversed, and Bathsheba has moved into a position of prominence and power in the community, while Gabriel's position has fallen. This will make their reacquaintance awkward, I presume.
Lisa wrote: "One of the many things that I enjoy about Hardy is his descriptions. They delight all the senses and capture emotion."Very much so. He loved his rural Dorset, and portrayed it magnificently.
Another thing I find with Hardy is his extraordinary vocabulary. He not only has a rich and evocative vocabulary, but he also uses words I'm unfamiliar with, not to show off or seem erudite but because they are the right word for the use he makes of them. They just flow into his writing naturally, or at least seem to.
I delighted in his description of Oak's religious proclivities: On Sundays he was a man of misty views, rather given to postponing, and hampered by his best clothes and umbrella: upon the whole, one who felt himself to occupy morally that vast middle space of Laodicean neutrality which lay between the Communion people of the parish and the drunken section,—that is, he went to church, but yawned privately by the time the congregation reached the Nicene creed, and thought of what there would be for dinner when he meant to be listening to the sermon.
(Hello again! I’ve been absent for over a year as life got in the way, but I’m hoping to read a couple of novels with you guys over the summer holidays.)Hardy has a special spot in my heart although I’m not exactly sure why that is so: I’ve only read The Return of the Native (which I loved) and Under the Greenwood Tree (of which I don’t remember much). But right from the beginning of the Madding Crowd I got into Hardy’s flow of language and have been enjoying every page, well, except for some in the eighth chapter which were a little dull.
I notice that Hardy has a taste for a bit of melodrama and sensationalism because only within these first chapters there are two fires, a marriage proposal, and a missing person presumed (by some) dead.
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...that is, he went to church, but yawned privately by the time the congregation reached the Nicene creed, and thought of what there would be for dinner when he meant to be listening to the sermon."
I had to smile here too. Gabriel makes the effort to be there but his mind wanders and he is not actively engaged.
This sentence made me look up the Anglican liturgical rite. Hardy mentions the creed before the sermon. They are the same as in the Lutheran and Catholic rites, sermon before the creed. Hardy was not concerned with chronological sequence but tried to capture the mood.
Gabriel certainly did a lot of surreptitious observation of Bathsheba. I loved his marriage proposal.
Picking up on Tommi's comment about sensationalism in the first eight chapters...TWO fires? When there's two of something I wonder, what's the author up to? Don't know, but I did note some symmetry. Maybe it will be significant later.
Of course there's the symmetry in Bathsheba saving Gabriel in one fire / Gabriel saving Bathsheba's property in the other.
I found another similarity, for what it's worth:
Closing off the draft allows the first fire to start / closing off the draft allows the second fire to be put out.
Linda wrote: "Closing off the draft allows the first fire to start / closing off the draft allows the second fire to be put out."Well, sort of, kind of. Technically Bathsheba saved him from carbon monoxide poisoning but it was a result of him using his stove without opening the vent. I suppose indirectly she saved him from a fire. Close enough for it to being fire related meaningful though.
Linda wrote: "I did note some symmetry..."Interesting. We'll have to watch for more of this.
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Well, sort of, kind of. Technically Bathsheba saved him from carb..."
In essence, they saved each other from tragedy. I had noticed that too.
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Kerstin wrote: "Diane wrote: "Linda wrote: "Closing off the draft allows the first fire to start / closing off the draft allows the second fire to be put out."Well, sort of, kind of. Technically Bathsheba saved..."
I like the way you put that, Kerstin.
Kerstin wrote: "So far Hardy doesn't grab me as 'North and South' did right from the start. The scene in the pub especially seemed to go on forever and was rather tedious. Is it just me or did any of you get the s..."That’s exactly the one chapter that I found dull in my post above, so I feel you there!
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Kerstin wrote: "So far Hardy doesn't grab me as 'North and South' did right from the start. The scene in the pub especially seemed to go on forever and was rather tedious. Is it just me or did any of you get the s..."This book is indeed different. To me it is a perfect book to succeed Lady Audley and North and South, with the rural simplicity and beauty in contrast to the action we just had. If I picked up this book at another time, I might have thought it was a bit slow.
But I thought the proposal scene was so funny, with all these ideas popping out of Gabriel in the middle of the quiet countryside.
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This makes sense. The pub is also the place where men come to socialize, a hub of the community, so to speak. And Gabriel gets a feel for who his new neighbors are.
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And Gabriel's not peeking through loop holes or overhearing while hidden, to learn stuff. He's moved from his rather isolated shepherd life into society.
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Kerstin wrote: "So far Hardy doesn't grab me as 'North and South' did right from the start. The scene in the pub especially seemed to go on forever and was rather tedious. Is it just me or did any of you get the s..."I wouldn't say it's just you, but I would also say that Hardy is much more of an atmospheric writer than Gaskell. He's writing about rural life, whereas Gaskell in N&S was talking about city life, and the different paces of life in country and city I think comes though very nicely in the contrast of the two books. What goes on in a city bar is very different from what goes on in a country pub. I think each author does a great job being true to the spirit of their location, and I think that may be a big part of why you feel that Hardy is more tedious than Gaskell.
Renee wrote: "Most of the Hardy I've read has at least on chapter like that. One that doesn't seem to move the plot forward but is more about the local people. I think he's trying to give his readers (who probab..."Well said.
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This helps! I love his descriptions of the country side and how he is able to create a mood based on topography, color, weather, sound, etc. I live in the country myself, so I am right at home here. I think more than anything I've been struggling to hear his 'voice.' With Gaskell I was immediately able to "read between the lines," and Margaret Hale is such an enjoyable character. Hardy's voice in contrast seems far more subtle, and I'm not sure I've fully discovered it yet.
Kerstin wrote: "Hardy's voice in contrast seems far more subtle, and I'm not sure I've fully discovered it yet. ..."Not trained in lit, I still tend to be uncomfortable with a number of what sound like literary terms when I encounter them, so I'll ask -- what do you mean by an author's (Hardy, Gaskell) "voice"?
One of the reasons I have come to like Hardy's novels a lot, even when I find his stories harsh (Tess, Jude), I find he probes hard the nature of the human soul (psyche). I may not always like or agree with what he exposes, but still I sense being in the presence of "truths."
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Not trained in lit, I still tend to be uncomfortable with a number of what soun..."
I'm not trained in lit either. What I meant is that each author has his own individual style of expressing things, an individual signature, so to speak, and this permeates the entire work. Everyman's comment on Hardy being an "atmospheric writer" gave me a better perspective on how to understand him.
Lily wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Hardy's voice in contrast seems far more subtle, and I'm not sure I've fully discovered it yet. ..."Not trained in lit, I still tend to be uncomfortable with a number of what soun..."
I'm not trained in literary criticism either -- I'm a reader, not a literary critic, and my own use of the term is very unsophisticated. I use voice to refer to the style of the author's writing; whether it is hard or soft, whether it caresses or attacks the reader. It's like a painter's style, or maybe in a usage more familiar to you, like a doctor's bedside manner. Some doctors are brusque, some are empathetic, some are aloof, some are warm. Some use long explanations rife with technical terms, some have a gift for putting complex situations in simple (but not simplistic) terms. Some use ten words where others use two. Some pull out a model when they can and use the physical to show what is happening to the patient; others rely entirely on words.
That's a pretty close approximation to what I mean by voice.
But literary criticism has its own definitions of terms, which are not going to be the same as mine!
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I always find collaborations between authors fascinating. Most of the time you can literally tell which author contributed to which part of the story because their voice is so distinct.
I just started reading yesterday, but am trying to catch up. For reasons I'm not quite sure of I've avoided reading Thomas Hardy, but I thought, "If there's ever a time to attempt it, it's in a Victorians group read".I think I expected it to be tedious and a bit dreary with misfortunes, but so far it is nothing of the kind. Though I was struggling hard at the beginning, like Kerstin, to find the author's voice. We have long, convoluted sentences of surprisingly detailed descriptions of the constellations and various aspects of nature. But there also seemed to be so much of comedy. Even in tragedy. How Farmer Oak lost his sheep had such a touch of the absurd. And the characters... Gabriel Oak appeared a bit "simple". Though he is becoming less so. And Bathsheba Everdeen seemed quite silly and frivolous. Though I was intrigued by her riding skills. And she appears to have changed in the matter of a few months. Then again, she did save Gabriel's life by direct action rather than wringing her hands and fainting, so maybe she was never all that silly after all.
It's funny that several of you felt that the scene in the pub dragged on without going anywhere. That's when I started feeling like maybe a was getting a feel for the voice and style of the thing. I was quite happy for that scene. It gave me a breather, space to figure out what on earth I was reading about because everything up until then had been subtly weird. That scene and all the people in it were subtly weird too, but I feel like now there's a baseline established.
Leni wrote: "For reasons I'm not quite sure of I've avoided reading Thomas Hardy,..."Perhaps it was the rugged debates over "Tess" that introduced me to Hardy, but he is about as close as I come to a favorite Victorian author, even though I don't like "Jude the Obscure" and I don't really "like" the man, as described by his biographers. His story of the tragic Tess has been for me among the watershed reads of my life -- perhaps best summed by his subtitle: "A pure woman."
Lily wrote: "Leni wrote: "For reasons I'm not quite sure of I've avoided reading Thomas Hardy,..."Perhaps it was the rugged debates over "Tess" that introduced me to Hardy, but he is about as close as I come ..."
Have you tried his poetry? It's not Wordsworth, but some of it is pretty decent.
Kerstin wrote: "So far Hardy doesn't grab me as 'North and South' did right from the start. The scene in the pub especially seemed to go on forever and was rather tedious. Is it just me or did any of you get the s..."I just started this and it's not immediately grabbing me either - though I did watch the movie version on a long flight recently, so maybe that's part of the reason...
I'd carry on for at least the next section, Dee, I have been rather enjoying it so far (although I confess I've fallen a bit behind as I have a couple of other group reads occurring simultaneously)
Just got done with the second section and you're right, it's picking up quite nicely :)
Somehow I ended up without notifications turn on for this thread, and only now realised that people are talking to me. Reading reviews of Tess d'Uberville was perhaps what scared me in the first place, so I'm intrigued to see it listed as a great favourite.
Have I read his poetry? Yes, I know I had at least one poem of his, possibly more, as compulsory reading in University. I'm not really a poetry sort of person, however. I read, dutifully analysed, and promptly forgot all of it after my exams were done.
Leni wrote: "Somehow I ended up without notifications turn on for this thread, and only now realised that people are talking to me. Reading reviews of Tess d'Uberville was perhaps what scared me in the first ..."
Ah, poetry. We have a Victorian poetry thread and our poem this month is Gray's "Elegy Written in a Country Church Yard" which is the poem that gave Hardy his title Far from the Madding Crowd.
No tests, exams or memorization needed. :-))
This week's reading is about: Chapters 1-8.
What did you think about this beginning?
I am feeling, while I read, that the male characters are very interesting. Usually these novels explore the personality of the female character but this one is rather different, in my opinion.
Hardy represents Gabriel Oak as a hard worker, loyal and altruistic young man.
We can see it, for example in chapter 5, with the pastoral tragedy. His first attitude was to feel sorry for the ewes and the second was to be happy because he was not married, otherwise, his wife would have to live in poverty because of him.
What other characteristics you found interesting in Gabriel? And in the other characters?