World, Writing, Wealth discussion
All Things Writing & Publishing
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Being an indie author: is it a source of pride or not necessarily?
Alex, Ian, I was indeed thinking of issuing an RFP for a moderator position once we reach 100+ members, but I guess the momentum is more important than the number, and if somebody feels like s/he's a natural born moderator, please take a couple of steps forward and offer your candidacy -:) If we'll have too many - maybe we can offer rotations, if we have too few or no volunteers, then yours truly will have to bear this burden alone -:(I'd be honored if Ian and you too, Alex, join as co-moderators.
I know moderators aren't supposed to do that, but I admit sleeping a few hours a night, which despicable omission, unfortunately coincides with some business hours in Americas and Oceania. Thus, alert moderators, operating under a different timezone, can effectively prevent some stray oligarchs from highjacking the group -:)
What are the perks of being a moderator, you may ask? Well, although advocating otherwise, I don't pay salary, not even the minimum wage -:) Nor does Goodreads, for all I know. Does it help selling books? Not really.. But it's fun and quite an opportunity to meet people, voice ideas and get some feedback on them. In my opinion - more fun than running a blog.
K.P. wrote: "So I continue working hard and hope my body holds up since I have to wear all the hats. (at the hospital being treated for exhaustion atm. Too many grueling hours not enough sleeping / eating). "Hey K.P.,
Don't kill yourself there. Hats or no hats sleeping and eating are equally important. Get well! Respect your resilience.
We might just need your experience and if the idea of an imprint takes off, we might even be talking about possible mergers under the auspicies of this GR group -:)
I don't put much faith in awards, prizes, etc. They are either one person's opinion, or manipulated voting (as per Nik's example) or, as in reality shows on TV, whoever has the best ability to round up masses to vote, and in many cases I suspect they follow the advice of Al Capone: vote early, vote often.The only awards that really matter, in my opinion, are sales, although prizes can help here. Take the average Man Booker prize - sales jump astronomically following a win. Many of these books would languish without the prize, and I suspect many of the sales are not read.
What does a moderator do? I'm happy to help but feel underinformed.
Ian wrote: "I don't put much faith in awards, prizes, etc. They are either one person's opinion, or manipulated voting (as per Nik's example) or, as in reality shows on TV, whoever has the best ability to roun..."Yeah, I can understand the doubt. However the word 'award' usually associates with some kind of endorsement for the readers, so if any author can add onto the editorial info or anywhere any kind of award, it's probably tantamount to a bunch of good reviews. And it should be fun. But as long as the people aren't that excited about the idea, I guess there is no hurry with establishing one...
Tara wrote: "What does a moderator do? I'm happy to help but feel underinformed."Not sure I have the comprehensive vision myself, as I learn as we go, but here are some general outline in my perception:
- offers new themes for discussions/participates in discussions intitiated by others
- provides for the generally pleasant environment and tone of discussions
- approaches new people to join and expands group's outreach
- offers beers to members (elective, not compulsory -:))
Doesn't sound like that much, but I find it rather time consuming
Thanks NikHmmm...I would certainly be willing to help but would not be the best fit for majority contribution/moderation. But yeah, I could co-mod if and when the idea foments into a reality.
Nik wrote: "I'd be honored if Ian and you too, Alex, join as co-moderators...."
i'm also honored that you would ask me, but unfortunately i will have to inelegantly decline. time is the culprit.
however, as i do have time to participate--which is in spurts--i will try to contribute in the areas you've outlined above--even, or especially, the beers.
Tara wrote: "Thanks NikHmmm...I would certainly be willing to help but would not be the best fit for majority contribution/moderation. But yeah, I could co-mod if and when the idea foments into a reality."
Great, thanks! Being an etiquette consultant, author and content contributor, I'm sure you should have no problem at all to co-moderate. I'll set up a separate thread to give more people an opportunity to consider it, but I guess I can make you one already. After all the pioneers go first. Ready for the mission? -:)
Alex G wrote: "however, as i do have time to participate--which is in spurts--i will try to contribute in the areas you've outlined above--even, or especially, the beers...."Hey Alex, I'm sure you already do much more than an average moderator would, and the deeds are more important than the title!
Be careful with the beers as in 'Frisco there are more chances that someone will call you up on them -:)
Personally, I think independent publishing is the way to go. The tools to publish your own book now has never been easier. If you go the trad publishing route you will face a lot of rejections and even if you get a contract the advance will be so small that you could easily make more money publishing it on your own. Trad publishing takes months to get the book onto the market and you do not hold the rights to your work even though you wrote it. With indie publishing you own the rights and you get the say on how to price it and what channels to publish it. Plus you get final say on content. It was a no brainer for me.
John wrote: "Trad publishing takes months to get the book onto the market "all valid points. the main reason for me to be independent is speed. a lucrative publishing contract could lure me, however.
as far as the impression goes, though, i think that it is definitely an uphill battle for indies. but the sales trend shows positive gains. see http://authorearnings.com/2016-digita... starting w/the slide "how does ebook pricing impact ebook sales"
With so many authors joining recently, I felt I needed to raise this question again. What do you think?
Nik wrote: "...offers beers to members."I'd like a Czechvar dark, please ... :)
P.J. wrote: "Nik wrote: "...offers beers to members."I'd like a Czechvar dark, please ... :)"
Hey, sure! I'm already with red wine in my hand. Na zdorovye. We should really add 'drinking' to the group's name
I've read that traditional publishers, now, don't accept unsolicited manuscripts (how true is that?), won't take on authors who don't already have an established following, and the author has to do his/her own marketing.Wasn't there a time when the publishers courted books and authors (to some extent), reviewed submitted manuscripts, and did the dirty work of marketing?
If all of the hard work now falls to the author, what's the point of having a traditional publisher?
The writing and publishing are fun and energizing; the editing is tolerable and productive; the marketing is sometimes fun and other times draining and discouraging.
As far as a sense of pride - it will be if my books are successful!
A complete sense of pride. Even though its a small subcategory, I take a lot of pride in the fact that I been in the Top 5 of Hot New Releases on Amazon because the other 4 authors are all previous NYT Best Sellers and with one of the top 5 publishing houses. So that gives me an enormous sense of accomplishment.
Michael wrote: " I been in the Top 5 of Hot New Releases on Amazon ..."In this case - a no brainer and very well done!
Congratulations, Michael. You can be justifiably proud!
Nik wrote: "P.J. wrote: "Nik wrote: "...offers beers to members."I'd like a Czechvar dark, please ... :)"
Hey, sure! I'm already with red wine in my hand. Na zdorovye. We should really add 'drinking' to the..."
The logistics of "toasting" by clinking glasses might need some work.
A gentle collision of the glass with the computer screen may imitate the required effect -:)
I find the marketing part cumbersome and a lot of trouble. I don't like it. It's not my forte. I wish there were FREE marketers out there who would have sympathy with indie writers and want to take them on with hopes of receiving a commission when the book hits big time. But, I know that's next to nil. Nobody is that altruistic.
Nik wrote: "A gentle collision of the glass with the computer screen may imitate the required effect -:)"Problem solved! Thank you, Nik!
GR wrote: "I find the marketing part cumbersome and a lot of trouble. I don't like it. It's not my forte. I wish there were FREE marketers out there who would have sympathy with indie writers and want to take..."Another problem solved! Volunteers?!
Michael wrote: "A complete sense of pride. Even though its a small subcategory, I take a lot of pride in the fact that I been in the Top 5 of Hot New Releases on Amazon because the other 4 authors are all previo..."
Congratulations!
Have indies managed to improve their branding since the last time we'd discussed it here?
It's a strange category. "Indie" implies a product that's unpolished, undiscovered, outside the mainstream (think indie music); but the industry is moving toward more polished and more mainstream. You can't ignore the idea of going where the money is if that is your goal, but when someone writes the same zombie story that's been done a hundred times in the last 30 days alone, and slaps a cover on it that looks like every other zombie story that's been put out...to me that's not exactly "indie." Certainly I'm not saying the quality of the product is unimportant, but for me, being "indie" is about being different, not copying what everyone else is doing.To go onto the subject of money, commenting on some of the earlier posts in this thread, I'm gravitating towards a thinking that us indie writers need to diversify our offerings. I think I'm looking at artists as a guide. If you're an artist trying to make money on your own, you might like to paint pictures, but you're going to produce prints that you can make quickly and sell cheaply for some quick cash. You're going to create tee-shirt designs and have them sold through one of the many retailers who will sell your designs. Artists exploit a lot of opportunities that are outside their preferred medium in order to fund their vanity projects.
As writers, I think indies need to get away from the idea that they're going to write a book, put it up on Amazon and wait for the money to roll in. I'm thinking we need to look for those ancillary opportunities to pad our earnings.
For example, there are authors who play around with 3d modelling. I'm sure you've seen covers out there created by authors and their modelling hobby. Well, the models created can be sold on a number of different sites, just like we sell our books. If you're creating models for your cover projects, why not upload them and make some money on those as well?
J.J. wrote: "...for me, being "indie" is about being different, not copying what everyone else is doing. ..."I'd also put an onus on originality, desirably - uniqueness...
What about Indie authors who don't write for money, but just for the passion of writing? Some other authors poo-poo us, saying that 'they make it more difficult for us to sell our books'.
Michel wrote: "What about Indie authors who don't write for money, but just for the passion of writing? Some other authors poo-poo us, saying that 'they make it more difficult for us to sell our books'."Can only respect your attitude and prolific well of imagination, Michel! In your case, nobody can tell that you are after a quick/easy buck
I am not sure that being original is by itself a selling point because if nobody is reading it, how do they know it is original? Also, original means unfamiliar, which makes some people uncomfortable. Finally original does not necessarily mean good. Different can equally be bad.In my case, the book I expect to end up most proud of is the one I am currently editing, and I predict nobody will read it! And this is not a sales pitch - I would not advise anyone in this group to buy it. The reason is it is the use of my Guidance Wave interpretation of quantum mechanics to derive simple analytical formulae for assessing the basic properties of the chemical bond. Unless you have a grounding in both chemistry and quantum mechanics, and in the latter case you are prepared to really think about what the equations actually mean, this will be an absolute nightmare to read and as exciting as watching paint dry, when the paint is on you. Nevertheless, from my point of view, this is a highlight of my life. So yes, I am going to self-publish it.
Ian wrote: "I am not sure that being original is by itself a selling point because if nobody is reading it, how do they know it is original? Also, original means unfamiliar, which makes some people uncomfortab..."Good to hear Ian. I'm not knowledgeable enough in any subject to write non-fiction. Perhaps one day I'll spend a year researching something do to justice to an historical novel.
In the meantime I like writing and I hope readers like my stories. I'd love lots of sales but that is not going to happen so I write for me first.
They are not great works of fiction. Most are at best holiday reads. I like to think I have put some intellectual stimulus in. Feedback suggests that as soon as I do put technical detail in people skip to the next action.
Philip, just writing for your own enjoyment makes it a worthy occupation. Any other person who is entertained/educated by your book is a bonus.
Michel wrote: "Some other authors poo-poo us, saying that 'they make it more difficult for us to sell our books''."Odds are those authors have issues on their end, and they're just blaming everyone else...I would agree that the glut of free books can satiate many readers who never have to buy books (honestly, I'm one of those :D ), but the same could be said for any art form...How many bands can you see for free in your local bar? How many artists put their work online for people to see for free?
People write and publish for a variety of reasons. If someone wants to make money, then it's up to them to differentiate themselves from those who are just seeking readers...it's up to them to convince a customer they're better off paying for their story than picking up someone else's story for free.
As J.J. says, it is pointless moaning about others who give away their work for free. What I don't understand, though, is why the stores like Amazon and Smashwords allow free. They are supposed to be there to make money, and how do you make money if you are helping someone else give something away for free? As an aside, bands in a local bar is not a good example - the bar has them to try and draw customers to whom it sells food and drinks. It is to get people to come in through the doors.
Ian wrote: "As J.J. says, it is pointless moaning about others who give away their work for free. What I don't understand, though, is why the stores like Amazon and Smashwords allow free. They are supposed to ..."
Ian, I do not publish via Amazon, Smashwords or other like ebooks stores. My novels are online at a site that specializes in encouraging indie authors and offering free ebooks in PDF format. Variants in more specialized formats, like Epub and Kindle are available, but you then have to pay for a special membership to get them. That site also makes some of its money via advertising on its site. So, stores who are in it for the money do not in fact offer free books, except in the case of occasional books promotions.
Ian, I do not publish via Amazon, Smashwords or other like ebooks stores. My novels are online at a site that specializes in encouraging indie authors and offering free ebooks in PDF format. Variants in more specialized formats, like Epub and Kindle are available, but you then have to pay for a special membership to get them. That site also makes some of its money via advertising on its site. So, stores who are in it for the money do not in fact offer free books, except in the case of occasional books promotions.
Michel, as I understand it, Smashwords, for example, does offer permafree. I never use free, so others may be more knowledgable on this issue.
Here is something about Amazon. I never dealt with it and never gave it my consent to use my ebooks, yet I found a number of my novels ON SALE on its site. Apparently, they decided that, since someone had made Kindle versions of my ebooks, that gave them proprietary rights on them and allowed them to sell my ebooks' Kindle formats. My message to the readers on Goodreads is this: don't buy my books on Amazon. Instead, contact me and I will be most happy to send you copies for free, the way I always wanted them to be.
Michel wrote: "Here is something about Amazon. I never dealt with it and never gave it my consent to use my ebooks, yet I found a number of my novels ON SALE on its site. Apparently, they decided that, since some..."Am I understanding this post correctly--you never published your ebooks to Amazon, but they are being sold there without your permission? If so, that seems a serious problem. Did you dedicate your books to public domain?
No, I only used one publisher's site that offers free ebooks. From what I understand after reviewing the fine legal print about use of Kindle, converting an ebook to Kindle format automatically gives Amazon rights on it, including the right to use and sell it. Apparently, the fact that my original publisher offers the option of Kindle variants of my ebooks was enough of an excuse for Amazon to grab and use them. I guess that fighting that kind of legalese in court would be a costly, lost cause against such a giant company. Still, I am resolved to keep my ebooks free for the readers. Since Amazon also happens to own Goodreads.com, I suspect that starting a crusade here may get me banned from Goodreads, all for claiming my rights as an author.
Michel wrote: "I guess that fighting that kind of legalese in court would be a costly, lost cause against such a giant company...."Not sure it should be as drastic as going to court. You can maybe contact them re offering your books and see what they answer? On the other hand, having them on Amazon without the need to go through publishing process just give your books a wider distribution without an extra hassle -:) And just to clarify - I'm not a fan of Amazon
On the subject of permafree, Amazon did price match one of my widely published books to 0.00. I'm not sure what caused them to change the price after 6 months of free, but I noticed a sale for the book on my dashboard one day and realized Amazon raised the price to 99 cents. They say they can price match at their discretion. An alternative for permafree might be publishing the book at Smashwords and using them as the Amazon distributor. J.J. wrote: "It's a strange category. "Indie" implies a product that's unpolished, undiscovered, outside the mainstream (think indie music); but the industry is moving toward more polished and more mainstream. ..."
You have some great points here and I agree. I don't make my own covers or know anything about 3d modeling, but branching out into the worlds of audiobooks and Amazon affiliation has resulted in some nice supplemental income. Both can be hit and miss but it makes more sense to me than leaving money on the table.
I've been able to see additional income from something as simple as inserting affiliate links for my own books on my own website. If a visitor to my website clicks on my book and then signs up for Prime or some other subscription, Amazon pays me a bounty. If a reader clicks on my book link and then decides to buy either my book or something unrelated, Amazon pays me commission on that sale. In the past week I made over $100 in commission and bounties just from being an Amazon affiliate. That's not necessarily typical (some months I see only a few dollars in affiliate earnings), but if I hadn't signed up for it, this potential payday would be lost in the ether.
ACX offers some nice bounties as well. You get a bonus of $50 (or $25 if you do royalty share with a narrator) each time someone signs up for the Audible listening program and uses your audiobook as their first purchase. I'm all ears for more ideas on supplemental earnings for authors. I think that having a book in as many formats as possible is step one. Becoming an affiliate could be a good fit for authors who have a website and advertise their books online with Amazon links.
It's not a get rich quick system, that's for sure :D but I think having the chance of non-royalty earnings from work you've already put in (writing the book) makes for a pretty good deal for indie authors. The same wouldn't necessarily be available for indie artists and musicians.
For me, this is something of a principle stand: I don't write for money and want readers at large to be able to enjoy my ebooks for free. I also kind of loathe Amazon for being a pushy bully with little respect for anything but its financial bottom line. To avoid dealing with Amazon was in fact one factor for me to go the self-publishing route.
Michel, what Amazon is doing would be a breach of copyright. Having the book in the .mobi format does not give Amazon rights, although they modify that slightly and have another label, and if you use that it might cause problems. The point is, that you cannot overrule copyright with some other clause. Then worst they could do is to countersue for illegal use of their format, and that should not apply to .mobi because it was not developed by Amazon.However, if you are offering the book for free, then that argument probably goes out the window. The whole point of copyright is to protect the author's income but if you declare you don't want income, that would seem to void the whole issue. What Amazon is doing is certainly unethical, but unless you ask them to desist, I don't see what else you can do.
Wouldn't they still need at least to ask my permission before using my books, especially since they are charging a pretty price to their readers for them? If they simply offered my novels for free, then it would feel a lot more correct to me.
Amazon doesn't randomly publish people's books though. As Ian said, a mobi file doesn't give Amazon any rights to the content. Someone had to publish it there. If that wasn't you or your publisher and your books haven't been dedicated to public domain, then it could be someone fraudulently publishing in your name and directing whatever profits to themselves. But since you mentioned going with a publisher, I'm guessing they have the distribution rights. Authors don't generally get to choose where their books are sold or how much they're sold for if they sign distribution rights to a publisher.
Looked your name up now on Amazon. Is that your book, Michel? https://www.amazon.com/Long-Way-Home-...If it is and neither you nor your publisher published it on Amazon, you may have an impostor doing it or something else. Anyhow before jumping to any conclusions, it certainly worthwhile to contact Amazon and check what's their explanation of the situ.
Guys, pls feel free to establish a thread, based on the idea that you've offered or you have an affinity with. We can host them in this 'Writing as business' group.