World, Writing, Wealth discussion
All Things Writing & Publishing
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Being an indie author: is it a source of pride or not necessarily?
A lot of it is just luck, timing, and saturation of the market. I'm reading a book by an indie author right now that's been in the top 5000 on Amazon for months since its release.
Oh boy, what a topic! From my perspective i adore being an indie author because i have unparalleled freedom in what i choose to write about and how I craft my projects. I can not imagine someone from corporate saying 'Sorry, but your next book idea is not on trend and our numbers are pointing you towards a different demographic" or "We're going to need you to do blah blah blah in order to push your next book" That just isn't for me. Now of course having a marketing and promotion push behind me would be excellent as I really don't like that part of the process at all. But there again, the industry is changing and even trad pubs want you to come to the table with your own outreach strategies in place and proof of your social media presence, which needs to be substantial. I spoke to an author with a trad pub who is counting down the very days and hours until her contract is up because of the extreme pressure on her to promote. I'm not talking book signings and interviews but more like spending upwards of two hours daily on social media promoting her projects as well as other authors in her genre signed with the same publisher. She recounted a situation where she got a warning email from her publisher because she had given a fellow author' book a 4 star rating on Amazon instead of a 5 star rating. They even chastised her because they felt one of her personal facebook account postings was not on brand with her book. I absolutely am not programmed to deal with that sort of malarkey.Another author I met on a podcast has similar issues with her publisher. They expect her to do absolutely everything and they charge her for the privilege of doing more. If she makes any edits to her book or wants help landing interviews, etc they tell her she has to purchase a package to upgrade. gmafb. The amazing success stories aren't enough to make me want to be controlled by a trad pub.
Having said that I do think there is a happy medium between being proud to be an indie and doing what you can to come across as professional and polished. I paid a little extra for a custom ISBN because i did not want createspace splashed all over my book. Some people, especially libraries, are programmed to recoil in horror at the very emntion of pod so why should I invite unnecessary assumptions about my book?
There is still a lot of stigma surrounding self-published authorship and their books. Each succes story helps to fight the stereotypes just as much as every poorly produced book helps keep the stigma firmly in place. I personally think focusing on making all aspects of the process as professional as possible shoul be our goal an responsibility as indies an let the results speak for themselves. Lastly, I can't imagine there is a closer, more supportive community of writers than can be found in the indie world. It sustains me on many days when I feel frustrated or overwhelmed. I don't think I would trade that for anything.
Tara wrote: "I spoke to an author with a trad pub who is counting down the very days and hours until her contract is up because of the extreme pressure on her to promote. I'm not talking book signings and interviews but more like spending upwards of two hours daily on social media promoting her projects as well as other authors in her genre signed with the same publisher..."Nik wrote: "I don't really enjoy or have time or desire to chase reviewers, prospective readers, whatever with something like: 'dude, how about you take a look at my stuff here'.
Having no interest from lit agents on the first book, I didn't have that much choice, but if I did, I'm afraid I'd sell myself rather cheaply to a publishing shark -:)"
heh heh. doesn't seem like you'd always be able get away from spending time self-promoting w/a trad publisher, Nik. maybe it's a good thing, you haven't been able to sell yourself to a publishing shark; otherwise, you might've unwittingly sold you soul.
@ Alex GI agree. If I have to market and promote with a trad pub or without I might as well keep a larger slice of the shrinking pie. Some trad pub authors have gone rogue indie and some indies have *gasp* turned down trad pubs who came sniffing around after sustained Amazon success. Michael J Sullivan's success was so meteoric that when he finally decided to go trad he got to do it on his own terms.
Well, I guess not every relationship's ideal -:)I hear quite positive things from my friend in London about working with the trad. He received a downpayment of a few K and every quarter receives a check from his publisher. He does nothing promotional and isn't required to do anything, unless they organize for him some radio or TV interview. But he too is not content with the deal, because he thinks the publisher doesn't do enough to promote the books -:)
For me, if the marketing is still on me, I don't see a point in collaborating with a publisher.
Yeah, by now, I guess, we've all heard some success stories of indies, as well as encountered few dozens of fellow authors complaining about low to very low sales. So the element of luck and probably the element of effort became quite obvious. I personally don't have great hopes, nor I despair about it though and try to enjoy the fun side of the process.
On this thread, I thought to focus on how this indie movement is perceived by the readers. On the first book, where I had a co-author, he insisted that we put a publisher's name "Neplokho Publishing" on our front page, although it's virtually our imprint. He thought that it might alleviate some of the readers' concerns.
Here on GR there are people who read over 100 books a year. I'm quite sure some of them are willing to try different books and debut authors. There is also a category of readers, who deliberately prefer of at least buy from time to time indie books, most of them are... indie authors themselves.
However, if I remember the stats correctly, an average American reads 12 books a year. With that amount you don't have that much room for a bad book, so I guess those reading around the average would be more cautious in their choice of read. And if there is indeed some stereotype about the indies, they might not try anything indie at all.
BTW, there is this Book Of The Month thing on different groups here. I wonder how often you'd see indie authors' book as BOTM?
I regret only buying the 10-ISBN bundle. Should have gone for 100 because I am almost out and I already have 10 more planned out. I like the freedom of being indie and I never even tried the traditional route. I did however try to get my screenplay produced or even just looked at, and I remember how much of a challenge (impossibility) that was.
Also, your thread titles crack me up!
Indie authors are generally not respected and are often called the leper of the literary world. I am against this motion. I find indie authors to be truely gifted who soldier on against all odds. I think there will be a time when people will want to read only Indie Authors. They have every right to be proud and the world needs to wake up to this and give them the privileges enjoyed by traditional authors such as equal access to high profile reviews, awards and so on and so forth
Marie wrote: "I regret only buying the 10-ISBN bundle. Should have gone for 100 because I am almost out and I already have 10 more planned out...."Recalling some previous discussions, I think we have, even here on this group, guys really 'rich' on ISBNs. Maybe they'd want to avail some? -:) I like your 'expansion' plans -:)
Marie wrote: "Also, your thread titles crack me up! ..."
Thanks. If some of my silly stuff evokes a smile, I consider my job as a moderator at least partially successful -:)
Mehreen wrote: "the world needs to wake up to this and give them the privileges enjoyed by traditional authors such as equal access to high profile reviews, awards and so on and so forth..."The burden of proof is on us, I think. We still have to earn our reputation
I had a conversation seven years ago with the author Jim Crace who had decided to stop writing. He had just had a meeting with his publisher and 5 other people turned up who were basically from marketing. Between them they had the next 18 months of his life mapped out. He said he was sick of the way writing had turned him into a circus act. I've been down both routes - trad and now Indie. Indie gives you more freedom but with the freedom comes the responsibility to do a lot of the things previously priced into your book deal - cover art, editing, publicity.
Whichever route you take I can't see a way to avoid the fact that, to be taken seriously, you have to behave professionally: that's the first step to earning the respect of your peers and your readers.
Welcome to the group, G.L., and thanks for the sound and interesting input!Those indies are quite different fellas though and there are no standards like in publishing. One with bravado would launch the first draft onto Amazon, caring less about editing, proofreading and annoyingly trivial things like these, expecting his genius to overshadow all the minor details, while the other would invest months or years and some bucks in an attempt to finetune the manuscript to the highest professional level.
Now a reader, buying a book of the former writer and stumbling accross too many typos is likely to never touch again anything indie. People often generalize, like if they didn't like the first book they've tried of a certain author, they are unlikely to take another one...
I don't think we owe each other anything, but I'd say, at least there has to be a way to forewarn the readers. Something like in bold on the front page: 'hey, this is pure, unedited, and uncensored genius, pls overlook grammar for the sake of essence' or whatever, so the reader would be aware what he's into. Hardly implementable, I know, but maybe we can voluntarily agree on certain standards..
I mean Amazon, Smash and other platforms offer some automated check, but it's hardly adequate for the challenge.
Nik wrote: "Welcome to the group, G.L., and thanks for the sound and interesting input!Those indies are quite different fellas though and there are no standards like in publishing. One with bravado would laun..."
Hi - been lurking on the new forum so thought I would add to the topic. Amazon do check spelling on submission and seem to be OK, but grammar - nope - and I'm not brilliant. Smashwords only seem to care that you have their copyright in the correct place and no hyperlinks to other sites. Formatting guidelines excepted
Agree that readers don't owe us anything. Indies have to earn their respect. Even for trad pub authors it still boils down to capturing and holding the readers' interest. Capturing is very much facillitated by trad pubs but holding interest is only up to the author and always will be.Programs like Amazon's Kindle Unlimited give readers a buffet of books for one low price so they literally have nothing to lose by trying indie books. From what I can see these are the conditions under which they are most likely to read indie material. According to polls almost all readers choose books based on reviews and friend/family recommendations. Not sure if indie status would deter them if they truly liked everything about the book.
Our outcast status in the publishing world mostly comes from industry professionals, not necessarily readers. I don't even think many of them look to see if createspace is the publisher or not. They do, however, quickly notice oddly worded or trite titles, homemade book covers and cringeworthy sample chapters. Even I used to pre-judge a book when I saw Smaswords anywhere near it. I'm still right about it more often than I am wrong.
Same argument could go for the Oscars or beauty pageants or baking contests at the county fair. You have to be entered to be considered. You can't enter without understanding the rules and procedure/criteria. The odds are stacked incredibly high against indies due to lack of exposure, but we can only do what we can do - and work to do that much as professionally and creatively as possible.
That's what I am saying. Make the rules equal for everyone. Not that awards matter, but seemingly, this happens to be the only measure of recognition, rightly or wrongly.
@ MehreenAgree it should be fair across the board. I actually wouldn't mind an indie category. It might reverse some of the negative opinions.
Philip wrote: "Hi - been lurking on the new forum so thought I would add to the topic...."Welcome to the group, Philip, and please, feel free to chime in on any thread or initiate your own. The checks implemented on major venues are basic indeed, their filters probably being similar to those of autocorrect function of Microsoft's Word, however they might evolve into something more precise in the future
Tara, Mehreen,Maybe we can establish our own award here at some stage. I don't feel we have a 'critical mass' of members yet, but as (and if) the group grows, it might become relevant and after some time maybe even prestigious. Rather than rely on someone else, we can try to promote and implement our own ideas. I witness how some book clubs grow and evolve on the internet and it's not something unachievable. Maybe even something to incentivize the participants can be developed.
I'm in Nick. We could also start a publishing company to give us a credential of trad authors. Some of us have published both traditionally and independently, I'm guessing. I know I have. All my books have been published traditionally, however, I went indie with my last two books as I had a disagreement with my publisher followed by a termination of the contract.
Ount me in! I volunteer as tribute lol :)Awesome idea.
Nik wrote: "Maybe we can establish our own award here at some stage..."sorry but having watched--admittedly from the sidelines--the gaming of the hugo, i'm not too enthusiastic about starting our own awards, even though i wouldn't refuse if i won one--as long as i wasn't nominated by a slate that i thought was deplorable! <: )
Mehreen wrote: " We could also start a publishing company to give us a credential of trad authors."
that would something that i'd be more interested in; however, i'd probably want to see a publishing company that ran imprints along genre lines rather than as an overall "indie" publisher. and what would an indie publisher be anyways? once you become a publisher, aren't your contracted writers no longer indie insofar as you as a publisher are concerned? perhaps, an indie publishing coop wherein the members share costs and get reduced prices b/c of bulk ordering (ISBNs, POD, website dev/maint, financial transactional fees (credit cards, paypal), cover designs, editing). this would be similar to a grocery coop.
in a more limited fashion--through discounts mainly--professional organizations (SFWA, RWA) offer a similar "bulk" system. they also offer classes and networking.
anyways, just throwing some ideas out there.
disclaimer: not that i'd have any time to start any work growing an organization; however, i'd very seriously consider becoming a member in one. ; )
Something like a guild could work.
Me too. I'm more interested in readership, than awards.
I too am not that interested in awards, although I would not say no to one, but only because I would use it to promote my books. I still think discovery is the greatest problem for an indie, and I think if anything new was to be done, the best would be some form of classification system, so that readers could find what they want.In principle you can do that with keywords, but you need a published list of keywords so that readers know what words to search for that the authors or reviewers use. Amazon has a list of keywords, but they are so broad they don't really refine the search much at all.
write what people want to readwrite it well
find a way to get it in front of your readers
give them a reason to come back for more
Out of the four things listed above, only #3 is extremely tricky/difficult or otherwise not entirely within our control. Master the other three and some level of 'success' is possible. The rest are things that are entirely within our control and are our responsibilities. Indies just have to work harder, is all.
Tara wrote: "write what people want to readwrite it well
find a way to get it in front of your readers
give them a reason to come back for more
Out of the four things listed above, only #3 is extremely tricky..."
I think you should write what SOME people want to read. You can't satisfy everybody. Now the third one is, "find a way to get it in front of that selected subset who might buy it". The selected subset have to know that what might interest them is there, and not have to wade through piles of what would not interest them to find it.
As a writer, I don't always feel that I need to pander to the reader's taste though. I write what I like and if readers take my books on board than that's a happy coincidence. Each and every reader is different. It would be a hard job to keep a track of what they liked or disliked.As for starting a publishing company, we could set up an online literary magazine first and then take it from there.
IanThat was implied in #3 - by 'your readers' I meant the niche who definitely responds well to your individual craft. I apologize for not being clear :)
Being all things to all readers is a recipe for a murky word salad, in my opinion.
Mehreen,Yes my implication, though worded clumsily, was that once your writing finds a dedicated readership that 'gets' your voice and your message you have to find a way to continue to reach them.
A literary magazine sounds like a great idea but wouldn't inclusion be a sort of award?
If inclusion in a literary magazine is an award, I see little harm in it.
Of course there's no harm in a lit mag inclusion, that would be awesome. Merely ghost referencing Mehreen's earlier chagrin about the Hugos. Next time I'll put a lol after my sentence.lol?
It was not a chagrin, lol. I said, my interest lies more in writing rather than winning Hugos. I'm happy for anyone and everyone to win as many as they can. But for myself, the writing itself is an award. Every time I finish a book, I feel humbled that I've been able to create characters and set them on a path - not playing God either. Just giving them an illusion of life, Tara.
Mehreen wrote: "It was not a chagrin, lol..."i think that was me.
Thanks for clarifying Alex. I was kind of wondering when did I say anything about Hugo. I have mentioned awards I know but nothing specific. It would be exciting to win one, wouldn't it?
Ok, Alex is chagrined, Mehreen is vindicated and Tara is learning the power of being specific lol. Sorry guys :)But yes, awards are the icing on the cake - not the cake, itself.
It's interesting to see how the ideas transformed and evolved just within 24 hours. Some cool directions.So we have an award, imprint, organization, classification system and finally a lit mag on the agenda.
I think each certainly has merits (and demerits as well).
The award would probably be the easiest to set up and, understanding your reservations, I think primarily - it should be fun. It can be like a lit Oscar, for example, with awards for the most upvoted book, best plot idea, best character, cover design, concept, setting and so on. And we can try to mitigate the concerns voiced here. But still I think, we need much more people to make this and other ideas implementable. Taking into account that only a certain % of the entire membership shall take an active part, we need more people. The entire thing just between , lets say, 5-15 people, is just not that exciting.
Imprint, organization, guild and lit mag are a more advanced forms that entail a bit more of commitment, infrastructure, costs, etc. As with writing, to have a fair chance to succeed, it has to be at a pretty professional level, otherwise no one's gonna treat it seriously. As I can't dedicate enough time even to finish timely (I wanted to have it out before the summer) my review of editorial changes of my current book, I wonder how many people we have here to be willing and able to allocate some time and attention to anything like this.
Classification system, mentioned by Ian, addressing the discoverability problem is also a good idea. Can be a catalog of a sort. There are catalogs for legal services, for example. Something for books per genre, per setting, per anything can be created. Also, it can be a software / a crawler that would sift through the 7 key words on amazon and/or tags on smash and return within a second with results based on reader's search parameters, however to become a high precision tool it needs to bring better results than Amazon's or Smash' own searches.
An online lit mag is not that hard to set up either.
A lit mag would be relatively easy and could also serve as the canary in the mine for other similar ideas.
Would hate to sacrifice canaries -:)Probably not too complicated, but lets see how many potential contributors we may have at this stage already and of what kind.
Everybody's welcome to offer input...
Having a theme per issue could be interesting. Also, relevant content rich articles and feature interviews could keep it interesting and give non-fiction writers a chance to shine/contribute.
a number of online sci-fi mags are moving to what i call "interaction-enabling publishing".for example, this well-known SF&F mag:
https://www.patreon.com/clarkesworld?...
here's a thought-provoking article on one artist's use of patreon:
http://emertainmentmonthly.com/2016/0...
however, i don't see any writers in the top 50 earners (notably more than a few NSFW, which i suppose i shouldn't find surprising given the known-but-not-mentioned popularity of erotica):
https://graphtreon.com/top-patreon-cr...
nevertheless, i'm going to give patreon a go next month.
Interesting data. Shows a possible way to monetization.#21 says also 'books'
Nik wrote: "Interesting data. Shows a possible way to monetization.#21 says also 'books'"
ah.
if you look at Clarkesworld patreon page, you'll see that their monthly goal is $1800, but that is only part of their monthly operating costs. So, it costs more than that to create an online monthly mag of "six-to-eight short stories (which are also podcast over the course of the month) and four non-fiction pieces."
they have some pretty reasonable goals:
"Our first few goals are to add another original story to all editions (online/ebook/podcast) of Clarkesworld, but we also want to invest in better podcasting equipment, feature more works in translation, add our non-fiction content to the podcast, and pay our staff a reasonable wage."
as far as awards go, even the locus awards are somewhat mired in controversy:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/book...
locus uses the Carr system in which "Readers make up to five ranked nominations per category; votes are tabulated according to the 'Carr' system, awarding a first-place vote 8 points, second-place vote 7 points, etc. The leader in each category is declared the winner."
http://sfadb.com/Locus_Awards
note: a locus subscriber's vote counts 2x as much as a non-subscriber, so it is somewhat skewed.
at any rate, some form of instant run-off voting would be preferrable to the winner-take-all system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant...
An interesting thing happened in this thread - there are number of ideas put forward, but most tend to get lost as the more popular one - the literary magazine - took over. What we need are separate threads for each thought.
Ian wrote: "An interesting thing happened in this thread - there are number of ideas put forward, but most tend to get lost as the more popular one - the literary magazine - took over. What we need are separat..."i agree.
you sound like someone who is experienced w/committee work.
Nik: quick, sign him up as a mod. ;)
Aargh! Just to let you know why you may not want me, once upon a time someone moved me into being Chairman of the Wellington Bridge Centre, which controlled inter club activities like tournaments, and teaching/enrolling new players. Apparently before I came along, meetings started about 5.30 pm, they were terribly fractious and disorganised, and finally disintegrated somewhere after 9 pm as hunger took over. In the first meeting, I had everyone out by 6.45! Everybody was so stunned!
Ian wrote: "meetings started about 5.30 pm, they were terribly fractious and disorganised, and finally disintegrated somewhere after 9 pm as hunger took over. In the first meeting, I had everyone out by 6.45! Everybody was so stunned! "see. self-incriminating evidence that Ian would be a model mod.
It's a lot to do. I run my own publishing company and do pretty much everything (editing, typesetting, cover art, ISBNs etc) and barely make enough change to put into marketing /advertising (a skill I don't have so having to outsource). I hadn't broken any records yet (because I don't write mainstream stuff and my works are very very niche) but I keep at it because I want to adhere to my vision.I approached many companies and always got the same response (well written but not what they want) and the few that were receptive wanted me to change my work to their suited tastes which became more of a chore. I didn't want to write for a check, I wanted to write because I have these stories that must be told in the way they come about and they're meaningful to me. I didn't want to change how I write for a certain audience to make them comfortable.
So I continue working hard and hope my body holds up since I have to wear all the hats. (at the hospital being treated for exhaustion atm. Too many grueling hours not enough sleeping / eating).
Alex G wrote: "if you look at Clarkesworld patreon page, you'll see that their monthly goal is $1800, but that is only part of their monthly operating costs.as far as awards go, even the locus awards are somewhat mired in controversy..."
I guess they wouldn't say 'no' to raising more money, but maybe a more 'modest' approach makes it easier to recruit patrons... It looks like it requires a great deal of commitment and punctuality, as many promise to deliver something on a monthly basis.
As of awards a little bit mired in controversy, just watch the Eurovision contest (one of the most watched TV shows in the Galaxy, which probably isn't that big in the States) tonight and see those "unbiased" votings between former-Yugoslavia, some former-USSR, Romania & Moldova, Baltic countries, Scandinavians and so much more awarding each other with maximum points -:)
Run-off sounds good with equal opportunity to nominate and equal voting for all....
Here on Goodreads, it's really wonderful to be an indie author. So many support groups, helpful advice, encouragement and so on. It's like a shrine for them. Sometimes I even feel we exceed in numbers the readers on here -:).
But when you open a book on Amazon for a 'look inside', you don't see anything like 'hey, I'm an indie!!! Don't bother to look for a publisher's info' in bold. One fellow author even wrote me the other day 'fake it till you make it'.
I certainly think there is a lot of pride in accomplishing writing a book, but I'm not sure the readership perceives it the same way.
I guess the readers do not just stand and applaud and I bet some are very suspicious (and it can be even an understatement) towards the indies like myself. Many readers seek endorsement and for them a publisher is a kind of endorsement. Same goes for relatives and friends by the way. If they knew someone for years, as an oligarch, janitor, driver, pilot or politician, doesn't necessarily cause them to switch and see an author in you, once you joyfully announce: "Hey, mate, I've written a book. Read it, tell me what you think." You all know how different the reaction may be in such situations -:). And many of those who haven't tried to write a book can't imagine the complexity of the process and probably think each idiot can write one.
Money wise too, I'm quite sure that most sales go to big names, which in their turn have publishers behind their backs
If you ask me, I think for established authors going indie should be like cutting the publishing intermediary. What do they need a publisher for, if they are 'brands', anything they air is bought in thousands?
But for the beginners? I think the trad is a much safer route. A friend of mine is a published non-fiction author. He's in + 3 or 5 thousand pounds already, don't remember the exact figure, and he doesn't really care if his book sells or not.
Me - I'm in - (minus) 2000 USD with unclear prospect of making any of it back. And I don't really enjoy or have time or desire to chase reviewers, prospective readers, whatever with something like: 'dude, how about you take a look at my stuff here'.
Having no interest from lit agents on the first book, I didn't have that much choice, but if I did, I'm afraid I'd sell myself rather cheaply to a publishing shark -:)
What do you think? Is Amazon's 'cultural revolution' real or projected? Is there a stigma about indies in some of readers eyes?