2-3-4 Challenge Book Discussions #1 discussion
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What Remains of Heaven
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Jonetta
(last edited May 08, 2016 10:37AM)
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May 07, 2016 05:40AM
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His anger is fair because he has always been lied to. Lord Henley has mismanaged the whole situation from the beginning. Has he even had any contact with Kat yet now he knows she is his daughter?
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Now, the lying. I could forgive him for not telling Sebastian of his true paternity. Considering the era, there are sound reasons for him to maintain the secret. But, once he learned that Kat was his daughter, I found it beyond cruel for him to not tell Sebastian in that moment. While I thought Sebastian unfair for his original estrangement, I think it understandable now for him to want distance.
To your point, Phrynne, he hasn't even contacted Kat. With all the other secrets, he really needs to clean up his act.
Sebastian's father's name is Hendon - Henley is a town near Reading. The have an annual regatta which I even went to, lol!I also think it is cruel that Hendon didn't put Sebastian's mind at ease about Kat.
Not that is excuses it, but Hendon does not believe that Kat would make a good wife for Sebastian (and I agree). Perhaps he was concerned that if he knew the truth Sebastian might insist on marrying her like he planned on doing before and Hendon couldn't allow that.
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Perhaps you had the regatta in the back of your mind. It's something that would happen to me...
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That was obviously his motive but it shouldn't have had more importance that relieving his son's feelings about possible committing incest. That's just wrong.
His father's lie to him as to the specific departure of the Albatross [what a nice name for a ship!!!] compounded his stack of lies to Sebastian. Especially since Hendon admits that Amanda knows more than a young daughter should have known.....And most especially because we see Sebastian having what he thought of as incestual dreams. Poor guy.
Phrynne wrote: "Has he even had any contact with Kat yet now he knows she is his daughter?"Kat mentions in the last book that Hendon comes to theater to see her and sometimes they go for a ride together. And he goes to see her in this book right after Sebastian confronts him with the truth. She's not my favorite character by a long shot but I will give her credit for encouraging Sebastian in both books to make his peace with Hendon.
I think Sebastian is justified in his anger at Hendon with reagrds to not letting him know that there was no actual incest involved. I do find it curious that he doesn't seem to have any anger towards Henrietta about this. She knew the truth and could have relieved him of that guilt and horror too. In any event, I still like Hendon and I agree with Henrietta that although he may not have wanted to love Sebastian at first, he couldn't help it. Or maybe that was Kat who said that. Whoever it was, I also truly believe that Hendon loves Sebastian as a son and so I hope this rift gets mended.
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I had forgotten them too. I guess I am not much interested in Kat so I don't absorb the bits about her:)
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I don't blame you ladies. That's the only nice thing you'll ever catch me saying about her, lol. It's a funny thing that as character Kat is almost universally disliked, and mostly for just being a bland and boring character. And I'm positive that wasn't the author's intention. In fact, Kat was originally planned to be the lead protagonist. Of course, that would have been a very different story and that version of Kat may have been far more likable and relatable. I'm just glad we got the version we got, storywise.
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Jonetta wrote: "Don't you wonder if the author realized this could happen on some level?"I'm wondering if the strong negative reactions by readers towards Kat influenced her into changing direction and making Hero a focus of the series.
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Harris posted on her blog once that it was always her intention to bring Hero forward as a more central character and that she knew from the start what role she would play. She said some other things but it would be a spoiler to mention them at this point in the series. Suffice it to say that the series progresses as she initially intended.Harris also said that she was still in the drafting stage when she opted to make Sebastian the main protagonist because the reality was that, as an actress, even one with French spy connections, Kat would never have access to the higher levels of society and power that are so needed for this series. As a titled heir, Sebastian would. And once that change was made, it necessitated changes in other areas of the story as well.
I do wonder though if she's aware how flat Kat feels to most readers. Counting everyone who is participating in this series reread, I know of at least 20 people who have picked up this series just within the last two years. While they have all ended up loving the series, there has only been one or two who have liked Kat. Judging from the reviews for various books, the disinterest in Kat seems to be the majority viewpoint.
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She's such a skillful writer I lean toward believing she knew what she was doing. I'm going to wait until I'm further along before asking her directly.
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I think thst Sebastian has every right to be angry at Hendon. Hendon lied to him his whole life and when he knew that he was with Kat, he should of told him right away. I am really looking forward to the next book.
I'm sure Sebastian feels validated in his anger. However, I think Hendon did the best he could. It's easy to point out mistakes once the dust has settled. When would have been a good time to tell Sebastian he was a bastard? When he was a small child? When his mother abandoned him? When he was chasing after Kat? Finding out then that he wasn't the heir would have given her incentive to accept his proposal. When he went off to war? Or when he was already angry with him for trying to keep him away from Kat? Hendon kept the secret to protect Sebastian as much as the family line. I think he also kept the secret because he knew the strain it would put on their already shaky relationship and yes, he does love Sebastian as a son. I think we can all agree that just because you can create a child doesn't make you a parent. I hope that once Sebastian's child is born he can forgive his father for making poor decisions.
Good points, Joanna. From Hendon's POV, there was likely never a good time and, being that children born on the wrong side of the blanket was not an uncommon thing, I think Hendon was simply following the protocol of his social set by pretending it wasn't an issue.
While I agree that there would never have been a good time, it should have come from Hendon himself. It is never a good thing for the child to hear it from another source. Moreover, for me, the best time would have been when Hendon found out Kat was his daughter. Allowing Sebastian to believe he had committed incest was more wrong than any painful revelation about his birth could have been.
True. Though it sounds like most of us are happy Sebastian didn't find out until after Kat was married. And Hendon should have most definitely told him when Sebastian first questioned him about the trip to America. Hendon should have known that Sebastian would have his story checked.
Joanna wrote: "Though it sounds like most of us are happy Sebastian didn't find out until after Kat was married.."Absolutely!
I think it was extremely cruel to allow Sebastian to think that he and Kat were incestuous. It certainly made Sebastian self-destructive, even suicidal. Imagine inflicting that on your child.As to Hero and Kat (which is kind of a sub-theme on this thread)--I like both of them, and can't really understand where everyone's anti-Kat stuff stems from. From the beginning, I thought Hero was going to be an important character and counter to Sebastian, and I'm completely happy with the direction Harris has taken her character. I would say my one complaint is that the "near-death-fall-into-each-other's-arms" stuff from the previous book seemed contrived. I would rather have had Hero and Sebastian keep working on cases together and eventually discover that they do or do not have an interest in each other.
But Kat also seems a worthy match/character. She's had incredible trials in her early life that she managed to survive and even seek revenge for. In her first relationship with Sebastian, she put what she thought was his best interest first, pretending that she didn't love him and was only interested in the money--a very painful thing to do. And it's clear that she understands some important features of Sebastian's personality.
I have this vague hope that eventually she'll find a worthy match that isn't Sebastian. Paul Gibson, perhaps?
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I do find admirable characteristics as she’s a survivor and talented. I just never thought she loved Sebastian as much as he loved her.
Jonetta wrote: "We all have our own personal reasons for not being a Kat fan. I speak for myself when I say I really didn’t like her duplicity with Sebastian. It was hard to champion her or their relationship with..."Yeah, I know she does keep her spy connections a secret, but that seems understandable to me. She's afraid of losing his love. Hero also keeps secrets, and again, I understand why, she's afraid of losing her independence. In fact the only person who doesn't keep secrets very much is Sebastian! People are always keeping secrets from him. Interestingly it was suggested in this book that this could be a failing on his part as well as a virtue (the idea that some secrets should not be revealed).
It is true that Kat kept secrets and Sebastian did not, and one could then say, he loved her more. But she also sacrificed for him and for what she saw as his own best interest not only giving up his love but letting herself be thought badly of by him (a sacrifice he never had to make), and that represents love to me.
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Lovely that we can all have varying points of view. Makes the discussions interesting.
Jasmine wrote: "But Kat also seems a worthy match/character. She's had incredible trials in her early life that she managed to survive and even seek revenge for. In her first relationship with Sebastian, she put what she thought was his best interest first, pretending that she didn't love him and was only interested in the money--a very painful thing to do. And it's clear that she understands some important features of Sebastian's personality..."All very true. And I'll admit that I came into this series fully prepared to root for Sebastian and Kat just based on the book cover blurb for the first book. I'm a fan of the second-chance-at-love-for-former-lovers trope so I was primed for the romance in this. It just didn't work for me when I got into the story. Despite being written with a background that should've made Kat an exciting character, she felt flat to me from her first appearance. Given that I didn't expect anything from Hero because she was barely present in those first three books, this lack of spark from Kat was very disappointing to me. Then as the series progresses she just really starts to feel shoehorned in to me and those types of characters always start to annoy me because they feel unnecessary.
And yes, the lies didn't help her cause with me either. Hero has also kept secrets up to this point, true, but it can be argued that she doesn't really owe Sebastian any fealty/loyalty at this point in their association. Despite one particular afternoon's impulses, they're pretty much strangers. The very nature of Kat's history with Sebastian and their recent involvement however demands a higher standard...at least IMO.
Kat's constant lies and secret keeping is what made me dislike her so intensely. While I understand her reasoning for being a spy, the deaths of soldiers on the battlefield that her treachery caused makes me actually despise her. It is even possible that Sebastian could have been killed due to her actions. It is impossible not to compare Hero and Kat. They are complete opposites in almost every regard. Kat never understood Sebastian's need to investigate cases while Hero not only gets it but aids him in every way she can.
Hero is honest to a fault (yes, she didn't tell Sebastian about the baby because she wanted to retain her independence, but it was obvious, to me at least, that she knew he suspected anyway).
