The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group discussion
Moderator Announcements
>
Writing more realistic crime and emergency response procedures
date
newest »
newest »
I attended this several years ago, and it was an excellent program.Someday they'll bring it out to the West Coast.
Lee's book is a fantastic resource by itself. It's my 'go to' book when I need information.Lee also has a blog (The Graveyard Shift at www.leelofland.com) that is equally informative.
If you ever get an opportunity to hear him speak, grab it. You'll learn more about the real world of police work than you can ever imagine.
Quillracer wrote: "Lee's book is a fantastic resource by itself. It's my 'go to' book when I need information.Lee also has a blog (The Graveyard Shift at www.leelofland.com) that is equally informative.
If you eve..."
Thanks for the tip about Lee's blog. I've read his book and found it really useful. I look forward to reading the blog now as well.
I wish I could get out to the U.S. for this. It looks really useful. Does anyone know of anything similar run in the U.K? I've not seen anything like this over here.
This is my biggest difficulty when writing is that I know how important getting the emergency services right is. Otherwise people who know about it are just going to be reading it and thinking "bull".
If you can't make it to Green Bay for the conference in August, The Graveyard Shift blog at www.leelofland.com does have a great supply of constantly-updated tips for writers, insights about procedures, and comments on current events. You may agree, disagree or just shake your head in shock, but you won't be bored. :-)
It is a great program - but not as much fun as going down to your own FD or PD and interviewing EMTs, detectives and first responders. And you build a network at the same time!I offer this observation:
It’s not essential to get it right. It’s important to know what the correct procedure is, but first, they all make mistakes, and frequently, the drama of an event arises out of the mistakes that were made.
Don’t let the exactitude of procedure handcuff you from writing the story.
As a working cop and aspiring author, one of the stickiest points for me in books, tv, and movies are unbelievable details. I agree that the minutia is not important to get exactly right, but the general concepts are (usually). There are often times that popular, profitable series such as Criminal Minds really do a horrible job with tactics and procedure, but their stories and characters are so compelling that even I don't care (example, the number of times those agents have stood circled up around a felon pointing guns at each other is mind boggling, even though that series was created by actual FBI agents). In my humble opinion, if you don't have an inside contact who can help with the procedural and tactical details, you'd better have a REALLY great story and incredible characters. Just my $0.02.
I watch Criminal Minds, and have noticed frequent possible friendly fire scenes. I am retired law enforcement. I sometimes downgrade a book review because of false portrayal of law enforcement.See. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Thomas wrote: "I watch Criminal Minds, and have noticed frequent possible friendly fire scenes. I am retired law enforcement. I sometimes downgrade a book review because of false portrayal of law enforcement.See..."
I agree with you, Thomas, regarding false portrayals. Even in my own writing, I've found that I have to strike a believable compromise at times between 'accurate and authentic' and 'giving away tactics and procedure to the public.'
I am much more willing to forgive inaccurate tactics and procedures than how police corruption is usually portrayed. Most of my hang-ups with police portrayal come when the writer/director shows personal bias and makes cops look like organized criminals who cover up each other's crimes and provide false testimony to keep each other out of trouble. Couldn't be farther from the truth.
You wanna write about the bad apple? Fine, I hate that guy, too. Let's put him behind bars with the other criminals.
You wanna make the precinct look like a den of mobsters and thugs? Sell your lies elsewhere. It always strikes me that someone willing to universally portray all cops as crooks must recognize, somewhere deep inside, their lack of personal integrity and understand how THEY would act with a badge, gun, and arrest authority.
Some of my favorite shows routinely touch on bad police behavior (Criminal Minds & Blue Bloods), but they do so accurately and fairly. The bad cop gets fired and/or arrested, and the good guys get back to work.
There have been cases of cops stealing drugs/money and covering for each other, but these are a very small minority of total law enforcement. Tv/movie writers like these stories because they make a good story,ie. "Serpico."Another book that I criticized for a false portrayal, see
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I think that our country is well served by law enforcement and I am pleased that you make a special effort to portray them accurately.
For those interested in getting hands-on experience in public safety techniques, Lee Lofland is holding the Writer's Police Academy again. The Goodreads event page is here: https://www.goodreads.com/event/show/...Past featured guests (some of whom now attend the WPA) include Lee Child, Michael Connelly, Tami Hoag, Karin Slaughter, Lisa Gardner, Kathy Reichs, Jeffery Deaver, Marcia Clark, Kendra Elliot, Melinda Leigh, Lisa Klink (Star Trek), and Lee Goldberg (Monk). The 2017 guest of honor is Craig Johnson, author the "Longmire" series.
For my current thriller, I've been trying to research what it's like to get caught in an explosion, but have really struggled to find any first-hand experience. Can anyone help? Have you come across any interviews or articles or sections of books where victims recount what it was like?
Just a reminder--Writers’ Police Academy is coming up this month, with many opportunities to eat, drink and rub elbows with law enforcement officers. The WPA has changed a lot of writing, erased law enforcement myths, and offered fresh ideas for plots, characters, and action scenes. What you see, hear and feel can help you craft mysteries, thrillers, or suspense novels that are credible and engaging. Author speakers include Craig Johnson (Walt Longmire mysteries), Lisa Klink (Star Trek series), Paul Bishop (Detective Fey Croaker series), and a host of public safety experts from ATF, Secret Service, local police and EMTs and more.
This year’s WPA is set for August 10-13 at Northeast Wisconsin Technical College’s internationally accredited police academy in Green Bay. Sponsor Sisters in Crime is offering a $150 discount to SinC members attending the WPA for the first time.
To see a complete listing of courses, many featuring hands-on immersion, visit the website: www.writerspoliceacademy.com.
Thanks--and good luck with your writing!
HI, I'm new to the group and have read through this thread with interest. I'm a former British soldier and police officer and I find that one of the quickest ways to get me to discard a book or turn off a TV show is the total lack of reality! I applaud any author who does their research on the subject, it's very noticeable to people in the know. Thanks
Lee
My dad's a former law enforcement officer, and he won't watch any crime shows on TV because he finds them unbelievable, especially the quick returns on forensic results. Most novels do a much more realistic job with this, I think. I'm reading Jussi Adler-Olsen's Department Q series, and the turnaround time on forensics seems more realistic. The investigators spend much more time interviewing suspects, doing surveillance, chasing false leads, and using the computer. Does that seem more in line with what really happens?
Lee wrote: "HI, I'm new to the group and have read through this thread with interest. I'm a former British soldier and police officer and I find that one of the quickest ways to get me to discard a book or tur..."Which regiment are you from?
Scout wrote: "My dad's a former law enforcement officer, and he won't watch any crime shows on TV because he finds them unbelievable, especially the quick returns on forensic results. Most novels do a much more ..."If you ever get the chance to hear Lee Lofland's talk entitled 'CSI Don't Think So" about everything TV shows get wrong regarding police procedure, don't miss it.
Or read the posts on his website reviewing the 'Castle' TV show.
My brother and I are busy reading some crime novels right now and they are EXCELLENTHilarious Friday Reads Video with my Brother :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFA2a...
Quillracer wrote: "Scout wrote: "My dad's a former law enforcement officer, and he won't watch any crime shows on TV because he finds them unbelievable, especially the quick returns on forensic results. Most novels d..."Lee is a good source for all things crime investigation related. Check out The Graveyard Shift https://www.leelofland.com/ and/or his book Police Procedure & Investigation.
Is anyone taking part in Nanowrimo this year?! I'm writing a thriller this year and just finished my prologue! I'd absolutely LOVE your thoughts!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2l2G...
My thoughts: Don't share it yet. Write the entire first draft, and don't share that either. Rewrite it, let it sit a bit... Then start to share with a small trusted circle, and gradually expand feedback from there...
This is a very interesting thread. Such great tools! I also agree it is so important to be as realistic as possible or you can just alienate a whole group of people.
Really interesting. Little details really make a difference to me as a reader. I would give a nod of approval if I read about an EMT asking if the patient hit their head or takes blood thinners, just because I've heard those questions in real life. (I've had to call the ambulance a few times for my mother).In my experience, EMTs also ask for name and birthdate right away, and eventually insurance card and ID. I noticed on a TV show recently that they didn't do that. (They can look up her medical history with that basic info, but it might just be for repeat customers, I'm not sure.)
NancyJ wrote: "Really interesting. Little details really make a difference to me as a reader. I would give a nod of approval if I read about an EMT asking if the patient hit their head or takes blood thinners, ju..."I'm not sure about the US Nancy, but here in the UK they certainly ask those questions. It forms the very first lines of their patient care form that they have to fill in at scene.
When I see paramedics on TV, they don't even seem to have a notebook or device handy to take notes.
Very interesting thread, thanks. I'm a lawyer and find the same issues reading novels depicting legal procedure in ways that make no sense, but I understand that often the "law" issues -- like the police procedure issues -- are not the real essence of the book, but rather a device to advance the plot and action. I just finished a crime thriller and I could not avoid a certain amount of description of crime scene protocol and crime scene action. I had to research some gun issues, but I'm hoping I didn't screw the pooch on the rest. These resources are great for future installments!
Mod
Hello! We are Bob & Carol Bridgestock - new to Goodreads groups so please bear with us. if we are in the wrong group and you can suggest the right groups for us we would be really grateful! We are crime fighters who turned crime writers of the international acclaimed DI Jack Dylan series of 9 books. Our latest book Poetic Justice was published last week by The Dome Press. We are also TV consultants/storyllne advisors for BAFTA award winning BBC Happy Valley & series 4 Scott & Bailey. Should this be of interest - Our bio - RC Bridgestock is the name that husband and wife co-authors Robert (Bob) and Carol Bridgestock write under. Between them they have nearly 50 years of police experience, offering an authentic edge to their stories. The writing duo created the character DI Jack Dylan, a down-to- earth detective, written with warmth and humour. The ninth book in the series, the prequel ‘Poetic Justice’ will be published by The Dome Press in 2019, along with fully revised editions of their backlist. The first book in a further crime series has been scripted by the pair which has a strong, Yorkshire female character Charley Mann, at the helm, and book two is being penned at this moment in time along with two stand a lone crime thrillers.
Bob was a highly commended career detective of 30 years, retiring at the rank of Detective Superintendent. During his last three years he took charge of 26 murders, 23 major incidents, over 50 suspicious deaths and numerous sexual assaults. He was also a trained hostage negotiator dealing with suicide interventions, kidnap, terrorism and extortion. As a Detective Inspector he spent three years at the internationally acclaimed West Yorkshire Police Force Training School where he taught Detectives from all over the world in the whole spectrum of investigative skills and the law. On promotion to Detective Superintendent Bob was seconded to a protracted enquiry investigating alleged police corruption in another force. He worked on the Yorkshire Ripper and Sarah Harper murder, and received praise from Crown Court Judges and Chief Constables alike for outstanding work at all ranks, including winning the much coveted Dennis Hoban Trophy.
As a police civilian supervisor Carol also received a Chief Constable’s commendation for outstanding work.
The couple are the storyline consultants/police procedural on BAFTA winning BBC1 police drama Happy Valley and series 3 of ITV’s Scott & Bailey, and are presently working with Scott Free Production scriptwriters on two commissioned TV drama series.
Carol started and chaired the Wight Fair Writers’ Circle in 2008, along with Bob where the group created an annual charitable community writing competition to inspire others of all ages. This event has raised over ten thousand of pounds for Island charities, so far.
The couple pride themselves on being up-to-date on past and present day UK police procedures, and as a result Bob is regularly sought by UK television, radio and national and local newspapers for comment on developing major crime incidents etc.
# Voted by WHS Readers #8 Best Crime Authors of All Time.
# CBS Reality - Written In Blood - 1st series 2018 - 2nd most watched Episode 7.
# Radio 4 (Steve) PUNT P.I. - series 7 - Episode 1 - 2014.
‘The Mysterious Death of Flying Millionaire Alfred Lowenstein.’
# Long list - CWA Dagger In The Library 2016
# Nominated in the Yorkshire Choice Awards 2017 #YCA17
# Nominated in the Yorkshire Choice Awards 2019 #YCA19
Together the couple can be regularly seen as speakers at a variety of events in the literary world and work with colleges and schools in providing writing seminars and workshops.
They also work with International TV/Film make-up artist Pamela Clare, to help inspire the students at the White Rose Colleges.
Eight annual RC Bridgestock trophies are annually awarded to students.
Carol and Bob are also patrons and ambassadors for several charities.
I went to a couple mystery book conventions a few years ago and there were a few panels with cop/authors. So they were asked which movie or TV show best portrayed cops, and they all - all! - said a show from (I think) the 80s called "Barney Miller." The doctors panel all said they never saw a medical show that got it right.
I am retired law enforcement. I didn't watch Barney Miller, but some of my colleagues did and and also said BM was authentic. I have watched and enjoyed Happy Valley on US PBS. I had to turn on the closed captions because of the accents. My wife and I visited a GR friend in York, UK 2 years ago. I mentioned the show and cc. He laughed and said that he sometimes had trouble with the accents form that part of Yorkshire.
Thomas wrote: "I am retired law enforcement. I didn't watch Barney Miller, but some of my colleagues and and also said BM was authentic. I have watched and enjoyed Happy Valley on US PBS. I had to turn on the clo..."I loved Barney Miller for the humor not the police procedures.
Fortuitous that we resurrected this thread. I'm working on a mystery novel now that involves some corrupt cops and jurisdictional clashes. It's helpful to have more resources at my disposal while I edit.
I loved Barney Miller. It was very, very funny. I was unusual in my age group, I read the paper daily. So I knew that the writers were often inspired by stories from the news.My personal favorite was when they arrested the man who thought he was a werewolf. He starts "to change" and begins to howl, tear off his clothes, and climb the cell bars. He creates quite a ruckus. Barney rushes out and orders him to knock it off. And he does.
I work in the software industry. When it comes to inaccuracies, you have no idea..... I laugh at some of it and get annoyed at some of it. Mostly I just try to treat it as exposition, to move the story forward without bogging it down with tedious detail.
I like my fiction to be accurate. That doesn't mean that I want to read the autopsy report.
I can definitely see the point of conducting appropriate research. I'm a soldier and have come across cliches and misunderstandings about the military in thrillers that vary from offensive to hilarious. On the medical side, I recall talking to a doctor once who told me the most accurate show he'd ever seen was "Scrubs" (I assume he meant without the surrealism when JD drifts off).
What I would caution people about, in terms of research, is getting accurate information and trying to crowbar it uncomfortably into a story in a "look what I know" way. I've encountered this as well and actually find it more annoying than the inaccuracies. Realism is fine, but the purpose of a thriller is to entertain. If you want to read military or police manuals they are out there (though they shouldn't be). For most crime/espionage/military thrillers, if they were completely realistic, they would either be really boring or the protagonist would be lucky to survive to the halfway point of the story.
Thank you for the comments. I'm a crime writer. I have a good friend paramedic, and the blunt language and vivid stories in her email are perfect for writing, but I haven't been successful in getting her to write...even a journal. She may lose details. I offered to collaborate. Any suggestions? Bob
I was a paramedic also, and had a lot of 'stories' but no interest in writing about them directly. I put them on the page once removed, so to speak, in a fictional story where they happened to a character who wasn't even a paramedic. I think most of us are pretty humble and may feel memoir type writing is too much like bragging, or that what we do isn't all that exceptional. I also think the motivation to write about those experiences can only come from within. If she wants to write she will. You know what happens when you lead a horse to water...
Christopher wrote: "Fortuitous that we resurrected this thread. I'm working on a mystery novel now that involves some corrupt cops and jurisdictional clashes. It's helpful to have more resources at my disposal while I..."I think now that we have the internet at our fingertips we have less patience for the kind of in depth detail that was so cool when people like Tom Clancy first came onto the scene. Now I think it's more important to tell a good story with just enough detail to show you know what you're talking about. I'll google the specs of the sniper rifle, or knife, or whatever if I want more.
Lew wrote: "I was a paramedic also, and had a lot of 'stories' but no interest in writing about them directly. I put them on the page once removed, so to speak, in a fictional story where they happened to a ch..."Thank you, Lew. She and I have been corresponding through email, and I told her I'm keeping the emails because she recorded some of her experiences there. More recently, I suggested a short story she could start and I could finish, which requires less time in her busy schedule. I'm currently writing a murder short story and will submit for publication and announce on FB and You Tube. Bob
Kcgood wrote: "Author and former police officer Lee Lofland, who has been recommended by several members of this group (he wrote "Police Procedure and Investigation: A Guide For Writers") has organized several da..."This is soo amazing. I love this I want to read it again and again. When I am going to read this book I sit in my room and run a music on my soundbar(https://soundbarscan.com). This is soo amazing experience to read this book. Thanks
I have used 'The Crime writers guide to Police practice and procedure by Michael O'Byrne. I have found this very useful while writing my second Crime thriller. Obviously there is a lot that you couldn't use or wouldn't want to as could make your novel a tad boring in places but is worth a look if anyone needs a bit of assistance.
Fight a fire, fire a gun, treat a wound, staff a CSI lab, conduct a traffic stop and more, then use your experience in your writing. Details are at www.WritersPoliceAcademy.com.