The Hugo

[C. John]

That small fee is a sizable chunk of my pension even before factoring the differential of the dollar in.

[Micah]

John wrote: "That small fee is a sizable chunk of my pension even before factoring the differential of the dollar in."

Where I'm from that's the cost of a dinner for two with no drinks at a moderate cost restaurant. It's also about the cost of 2 tanks of gas for a vehicle with a 12-gallon tank ($2.20 average $/gal in the US as of today). A movie for 2 with snacks and drinks ... about $50. A bus ride from where I live to NYC, about $50. It's also about the cost of 5 eBooks from the big 5 publishers (which I find to be harder to justify than the cost of the Hugos!).

It's a lot to some people, true, but when something like 83% of all households pay for cable TV at a cost of nearly $100/month, $50 once a year doesn't sound like a whole lot for most fans...Plus you get a lot of reading material for the price.

[C. John]

For some of us it isn't $50. It is 50 tmes whatever the difference between the US dollar and our currency is. And if I am going to spend money on books I want it to be books I actually want.

[Kirsten]

So if you join the Hugo Society (??) they send you all the nominees?

[Micah]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "So if you join the Hugo Society (??) they send you all the nominees?"

Well, that's actually left to the publishers to decide. Some publishers give the complete work, others give only a sample. But at least last year it was a big chunk of text to read.

[Kirsten]

Hmmm.... sounds like a great way to read new stuff. So, only $50 for the whole year?

[Leonie]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "So if you join the Hugo Society (??) they send you all the nominees?"

You need to join the current WorldCon, as a supporting member (or full membership if you want to go to the con) and then you're eligible to vote and submit nominations.

They'll also send you 'The Hugo Packet.' It usually contains the vast majority of finalists - but it is dependent on the publishers making them available to voters. Either way, there are lots of books and short stories involved. :)

[Phil]

"A few decades ago, if you saw a lovely spaceship on a book cover, with a gorgeous planet in the background, you could be pretty sure you were going to get a rousing space adventure featuring starships and distant, amazing worlds. If you saw a barbarian swinging an axe? You were going to get a rousing fantasy epic with broad-chested heroes who slay monsters, and run off with beautiful women.

These days, you can’t be sure.

The book has a spaceship on the cover, but is it really going to be a story about space exploration and pioneering derring-do? Or is the story merely about racial prejudice and exploitation, with interplanetary or interstellar trappings?

There’s a sword-swinger on the cover, but is it really about knights battling dragons? Or are the dragons suddenly the good guys, and the sword-swingers are the oppressive colonizers of Dragon Land?

A planet, framed by a galactic backdrop. Could it be an actual bona fide space opera? Heroes and princesses and laser blasters? No, wait. It’s about sexism and the oppression of women." -Brad Torgerson

This quote sparked my interest in the whole Puppy/SJW controversy because it forced me to ponder the definition of science fiction. According to Torgerson, sci fi means that the contents of the book match the cover. No surprises allowed. I believe the opposite of that. After much consideration, I believe that the definition of science fiction is a story that asks, "What if?" The answer to that question should be too interesting to be summed up by a stock picture of a guy with a laser. And I'm speaking as a John Carter fan when I say that.

In answer to posters asking where the list of SJWs is, of course there isn't one, because most people choose not to label themselves. However, the Puppies seem to hate N.K. Jemisin more than anyone else, so if there was a list, she'd probably be on it.

[Phil]

John wrote: "I lived through the Science Fiction vs. Speculative Fiction battles of the 70s."

I would love to hear more about this. I always thought the terms were synonyms. What was there to fight over?

[C. John]

Of course if I see a cover of a barbarian swinging a sword and expect a certain type of story but don't get it then I am perfectly justified in ignoring anything by that author again because I can't be sure they will live up the the advertising.

[C. John]

Phil wrote: "John wrote: "I lived through the Science Fiction vs. Speculative Fiction battles of the 70s."

I would love to hear more about this. I always thought the terms were synonyms. What was there to figh..."

Those who were in favour of the term 'speculative fiction' tended to want have a few things in common back then. First off they were dismissive of a lot of the older authors (such as E,E, Smith).
In their opinion those works were juvenile hack-work that was now best ignored. They wanted their fiction to be more literary, at least as it was understood then. This meant that the old standards such as having a plot and having some internal logic to the story, weren't important anymore. They also didn't feel that SF should be mere entertainment. Now it had to be dealing with the important issues of the day, whatever they were. Finally they wanted to use the term Speculative Fiction as for them the term Science Fiction referred to some sort of literary ghetto. The whole conflict led to some interesting events. Robert Silverberg for instance withdrew from writing sf because his newer stuff was going out of print (it wasn't selling) but his publishers kept reissuing his older stuff because it did sell.

[Kirsten]

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

[mark, personal space invader]

John wrote: "Robert Silverberg for instance withdrew from writing sf because his newer stuff was going out of print (it wasn't selling) but his publishers kept reissuing his older stuff because it did sell. ..."


that is very interesting! well, to me at least, because Silverberg is one of my favorite authors. his novels encompass everything from straightforward pulp and juvenile adventures to more overtly speculative science fiction to new wave experimentation to classic fantasy. even a pirate novel!

[Phil]

I was somewhat aware that the snootier writers preferred the "speculative fiction" tag, but I didn't know it had got as vehement as that.

This would've been a bigger deal in the '70s, when the books would be on a physical shelf with a written label on it. If you put the wrong words on the label, you turn away potential readers. For example, I never looked into Stephen King because he was on the Horror shelf, and I was strictly a Science Fiction guy.

Years later, a book can be on all the shelves that apply, so the argument seems kind of quaint.

[Scott]

It always bugs me that they put ALL of King's stuff in horror (or plain fiction if there isn't a horror section.)

[C. John]

When Astounding ran a couple of works by H.P. Lovecraft I have read that some fans were incensed. They did not consider him an SF author, or at least not the type they felt should be in Astounding. In fact the two stories run are definitely science fiction, as is a lot of Lovecraft's writings actually. Lovecraft is that oddity, a writer of horror stories who doesn't believe in the supernatural.

[C. John]

Vis a vis Speculative Fiction vs. Science Fiction that was just one of the many battles waged within SF fandom. The first was the one over politics back in the late 30s/early 40s. and then there were the two competing ads that ran in an issue of Galaxy Magazine in 1968 (they also ran in the second issue of International Science Fiction but Galaxy is the magazine usually mentioned). We have had lots of fun in SF fandom over the years.

[Kirsten]

John wrote: "When Astounding ran a couple of works by H.P. Lovecraft I have read that some fans were incensed. They did not consider him an SF author, or at least not the type they felt should be in Astounding...."

I don't know how they can say that. If you read his fiction, it's obvious there is a strong science fiction element. It was obvious he was fascinated with the science discoveries of the day.

[C. John]

One item of interest is that Lovecraft mentioned a ninth planet in our solar system (which he called Yuggoth) before the discovery of Pluto).

[Scott]

"Beyond the Wall of Sleep" has a nice science-y capper.

And "In the Walls of Eryx" is pure SF.

[C. John]

At the Mountains of Madness and Shadows out of Time both are SF (those are the two stories that ran in Astounding, with the latter actually getting the cover). Interestingly Lovecraft's friend Robert E. Howard who was far more prolific only wrote one SF story, Almuric, and it is Burroughsian in theme and approach.

[Micah]

AFAIK Lovecraft always referred to the Great Old Ones as deities from space, which I read as "aliens." Ergo, SF.

[C. John]

Lovecraft did not believe in the supernatural at all. All of his monsters had some sort of natural or SF basis. Some of them may be stretching it a bit but they were still non-supernatural. Even the creatures in Pickman's Model were supposed to be a race of creatures that somehow lived alongside man without his knowledge.

[Phil]

I was under the impression that HPL wrote about things he didn't believe in. Many of his stories take a big leap of imagination to be classed as SF. I agree that some- "Color Out of Space" comes to mind- were clearly alien invasion stories, but I think of him as a primarily supernatural author.

[C. John]

Some could be considered fantasy ("Doom that Comes to Sarnath" comes to mind, as well as well as "The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath") but few of his stories had a supernatural element. The various 'deities' in the Cthulhu Mythos are all alien beings for instance, which would mean those stories could be considered SF. I should re-read my Lovecraft and try and classify the stories. If nothing else it gives me an excuse to read the revised Tales of the Cthulhu Mythos I got as a discard from the library a while back.

[mark, personal space invader]

Lovecraft perfectly fits the phrase "it can be both things". he's a great horror writer and a great scifi writer. and, when looking at The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, a great fantasy writer as well.

[Scott]

Lovecraft resides at the nexus of all genres. :)

[mark, personal space invader]

much like Azathoth, he is the beginning and ending of all things!

[Scott]

Hmmmmmm...

[C. John]

Scott wrote: "Lovecraft resides at the nexus of all genres. :)"

Not sure I would say all genres, given his known attitude to romantic stuff.

[mark, personal space invader]

but his books are practically love letters to the Old Ones! the darkly erotic atmosphere he conjures when writing about that crew of heartbreakers is palpably romantic.

[Scott]

John wrote: "Not sure I would say all genres, given his known attitude to romantic stuff."

I meant the ones that are being discussed here.

[C. John]

I was referring to a series of letters Lovecraft wrote to onr of the Munsey pulps when it started to run stories by a specific writer which included what a gal I worked with referred to as 'mushy stuff'.

[Dan]

Could someone point me in the direction of Lovecraft's finest comedy? Perhaps he writes of a sleuth solving crimes to rival Miss Marple? Or maybe a Sword and Sorcery tale written so well Conan eats his horse?

[Kirsten]

[Dan]

LOL. Should have known, if I could think it, someone would have written it. Okay, how about a Lovecraft dramatic tragedy written in iambic pentameter?

[C. John]

I think his life could be considered a tragedy, though one of his own and his aunt's making.

[Kirsten]

Dan wrote: "LOL. Should have known, if I could think it, someone would have written it. Okay, how about a Lovecraft dramatic tragedy written in iambic pentameter?"

Check this out: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/292521...

[C. John]

As far as I know this is out of print but a good sampler if you find it.

[MadProfessah]

Nora Jemisin gets the 2016 Hugo Award for Best Novel! Becomes first black woman (or person?) to win science fictions oldest and most prestigious honor!

[Najaf]

both octavia butler and samuel r. delany have won hugos.

[C. John]

Samuel R. Delaney is black? I did not know that. Admittedly I have never given much thought as to the race, gender or whatever of an author. If I like their work I like their work and if I don't I don't and nothing is going to change that. Of course when I first read Andre Norton I figured it was a male writing and when I was reading the Dark Shadows novels I figured Marilyn Ross was a female. So what do I know.

[Scott]

At least none of the crazy ones won.

WTF is a "fancast"?

[ScoLgo]

Najaf wrote: "both octavia butler and samuel r. delany have won hugos."

Yes, but not for best novel.

[Megan]

They have, but neither won for Best Novel, so MadProfessah is mostly right. :)

[C. John]

Megan I did a compare books with your shelfs. If you like Murder on the Orient Express you should try Randall Garrett's Murder on the Naopoli Express. One of his Lord Darcy series.
Did anyone know that there is an award for the best alternate history writing. I looked at the winners and was a bit surprised to see that Harry S. Turtledove has only won it once.

[C. John]

It's funny in a way. I remember when anything that won a Hugo had almost always appeared first in one of the SF magazines. Now try finding a fiction magazine on the racks. If my local Chapters carries them I still haven't found them.

[C. John]

Any new Star Wars movie is going to be compared by some fans to the first trilogy and found lacking, no matter how good it is.

[Scott]

I haven't seen The Martian but I was really hoping for Ex Machina. I thought he Star Wars movie was average at best (and I am not even a fan of the originals.)

Couldn't get through Seveneves.