Help with grammar and punctuation.

[Anthony Deeney]

I am surprised that we don't have a thread for this, as sometimes it can be tricky.

e.g. In my first book one character speaks, (quotation marks).
In her speech she quotes a book, "Wuthering Heights," (quotation marks). In her quote, Heathcliff speaks, (quotation marks).

I am sure that I got it right, alternating nested single and doubled inverted commas. Added to this the event was a recollection by another character, so, my choice was to italicise it all.

In another part, a character interrupts his own question with a rhetorical question. Again, I am sure, I got it right.

However, I am not too proud to admit that at times, I chew over some things that I am trying to write correctly. I also confess that I'm dyslexic (self diagnosed). I think it kind of funny that I decided this when on a course for dyslexia. The instructor described the traits of "the dyslexic child," and I started ticking off the list for myself.

So, to kick off, what might be a very short thread (is it only me)?

Consider the following sentences (an easy one for you clever folk, I am sure).


Tony said, "My daughter, Ruth, was born two days after Christmas."

Tony said, "My daughter, 'Ruth,' was born two days after Christmas."


Am I correct in thinking the first sentence suggests that Tony is telling Ruth about his daughters birthday, and in the second Tony is telling someone about the birthday of his daughter and his daughter is named Ruth? Am I being too picky? Does it depend on context?

Thoughts please?

Thanks!

Dyslexics of the world untie!

[Dwayne, Head of Lettuce]

This one:
Tony said, "My daughter, Ruth, was born two days after Christmas." could be taken that the daughter is Ruth or Tony is telling Ruth about his daughter.

This one:
Tony said, "My daughter, 'Ruth,' was born two days after Christmas." the quotes in the quote seem to indicate that Tony is saying "Ruth" in a sarcastic way or that "Ruth" is the daughter's nickname.

Suggestions:

If Tony is speaking to Ruth about his daughter, try Tony said, "Ruth, my daughter was born two days after Christmas."

If Tony is speaking about his daughter and her name is Ruth, try Tony said, "Ruth, my daughter, was born two days after Christmas."

[[deleted user]]

I agree wholeheartedly with Dwayne. Sometimes just a minor rewrite can make the meaning a little clearer.

[Anthony Deeney]

Thanks, Dwayne.

For (1): It sounds like you are saying that the sentence is ambiguous, but neither interpretations are grammatically wrong.

For (2): It sounds like you are saying that the sentenec is unambiguous in that the daughters name is "Ruth," but the quotes emphasise the name too much, and the reader may draw inference.

I see how you mean about the rephrasing.

I'll be specific.

From the book:

I have

. “Call me Lucy, and I have two children, Andrew and Rachel. My husband, Dave, is dead. Not even two months.”

When reviewing it I thoughht it should perhaps be,

. “Call me ‘Lucy,’ and I have two children, ‘Andrew’ and ‘Rachel.’ My husband, ‘Dave,’ is dead. Not even two months.”

Is this more correct, or just pedantic and silly, or even plain wrong?

[Dwayne, Head of Lettuce]

The first way is correct. The second seems awkward. There's no need to put the names in quotes.

[Marie Silk]

You do not need single quotes around any of those names :) the first sentence with Ruth does not need commas around Ruth unless there is more than one daughter.

I rewrite a lot of stuff to avoid confusing grammar. I hate the words lie, lay, and laid, by the way. I may vow to never use them again after what it put me through in my first book.

[Anthony Deeney]

Thanks all. I'm just a guy who had an idea, and wrote a book. English was never my strongpoint.

I heard that Mark Twain once ended a draft with a series of full stops and commas and instructions, "Scatter these to taste!" So, I am in good company! Actually, I'm better than that: I just need to get such ideas clear in my head and check my work carefully.

Thanks again!

[Dwayne, Head of Lettuce]

It can be frustrating when writing. I tend to write very freely, just putting out the words that work in the best order I can, I don't think about it much. In the rewrite, I will think about it more, but I try to keep a bit of that free feeling in my writing, even to the last edit /rewrite. But, punctuation... those needly little things with their sticky little rules. It's the necessary evil of writing.

[Anthony Deeney]

Yes, it is necessary. I love the comedy sketches that feature actors with badly punctuated scripts!

The trouble is, it is more of an art than a science!

Duh!!! I can't believe I am complaining that good writing is an art!

What I mean is, that two writers might not agree on the punctuation and sometimes there is no "right" answer. There certainly are many wrong ones.

I bought the book, Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation before I wrote my first book. It was very helpful, but in the book the author describes an event where she passes a document to her editor. The editor compliments her on it, but pencils in a whole bunch of commas. Then when the editor leaves the room the author rubs them out again!

[L.F.]

I suggest purchasing The Elements of Style


Short, succinct, and easy to understand for the basics of grammar and punctuation.

[Owen]

Conventions vary, especially with regard to the use of quotes. This sentence:
Tony said, "My daughter, Ruth, was born two days after Christmas."
is always ambiguous if the person being spoken to is not named. For myself, I would think that the daughter is named Ruth.

Dwayne has already pointed out that it's the commas which show whether the daughter is named Ruth or Ruth is the person being addressed. Eats, Shoots & Leaves is a good example (and a book I've never read) along with "Let's eat Grampa" vs "Let's eat, Grampa".

Other than simple examples like that, the comma issue seems to be a mess. Some places/people have taken to removing commas wholesale and letting the reader figure out where the clauses are. Others seem to still lard them in.

Personally, I cherish my ignorance of grammar and write with complete disregard for styles, fashions, conventions, and rules. They change in any case. I find it works best to just say what I want in a way that seems clear enough to me and let the chips fall where they may.

[Susan]

I am still in mourning over the demise of the Oxford comma. It is not dead in my writing!

The possible ambiguities in the sentence may not be ambiguous at all when read in context. Has it already been established that the character is speaking to someone other than Ruth? Problem solved! -- I could hear Tony discussing his children with Gigi. Tony said, "My daughter, Ruth, was born two days after Christmas."

Have you mentioned elsewhere your daughter is named Ruth? Problem solved! -- I asked Tony when his youngest daughter, Ruth, was born. Tony said, "My daughter, Ruth, was born two days after Christmas." (Okay, he wouldn't use ,Ruth, in both sentences here, but you get the idea.)

[[deleted user]]

I use a comma, or not, depending on how I want the sentence to flow. If I feel that not setting off a clause with a comma will mean that the reader has to read it twice to get the meaning, then I'll use a comma. If it's perfectly understandable without a comma, and flows better, I'll omit the comma, even if the strictest interpretation of the rules calls for one. The most important function of punctuation is to make your meaning clear.

[J.J.]

If the character is speaking to Ruth about the daughter, than I would put the name outside the quotes

Jim said to Ruth, "..."

Maybe it's just me, but I never tell someone their name in conversation unless I'm trying to get their attention, or I'm in a group talking specifically to them; so I rarely have characters naming the person they speak to. I know it's different if you're writing for film when it's usually the only way to present the name to the audience.

Then again, maybe that's why I don't remember people's names in real life...

[G.G.]

Yeah, I rarely put the name of the addressee in dialogues unless there are many characters around and the question goes to one person in particular.

So for me, Ruth was the daughter and not the person someone was talking to. If it would have been the addressee, I would have formulated it something else.

As for the quote, I never seen anyone add quotes for that. It really seems out of place.

[Sam (Rescue Dog Mom, Writer, Hugger)]

Hi Dwayne, Owen, and Ken - It's those blasted commas that get me. I think I follow your formulas. I write as though I were speaking. If I need to pause, like here, I use a comma.

I have the book L.F. suggested and got stuck on the first item in the first chapter. It states the rules and exceptions of using apostrophes to show possession of words and names ending in "S." That is where my bookmark remains. : (