Our Shared Shelf discussion
Apr—How to Be a Woman (2016)
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Can we appreciate this book for what it is?
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Bunny
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Apr 19, 2016 12:47PM
A reviewer called this book loveable even when it is problematically narrow. I think that's a great synopsis.
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erika wrote: "Katelyn wrote: "Laurelei wrote: "That seems to unfairly place the burden on certain groups. White women should be just as capable and responsible for doing intersectional work, even if they are str..."Apparently white people should write stuff even when we haven't had various experiences :) Because if we happen to remain silent about the wrong thing, we are actively excluding others. We should talk about those without privilege in a way that doesn't speak down to them but that makes us remain an ally only, yet we shouldn't speak for them but let them do their own thing. And since we should only tell the truth, to pull this whole thing off, we must first befriend the others, but they mustn't be fake friends either, but real friends. So if we can't find them locally, we must move abroad. So then we have had the right experiences, so we can avoid actively excluding for the wrong reasons, unless we are complete assholes and want to exclude by choice. Because at the end of the day, living life as a white person, surrounded by only white people with fairly similar privileges, is no valid reason, no right way to live. It can't be done.
In case anyone wonders, I'm only sarcastic about the rules, not at all the various intersectional groups.
Well I, like some others here, liked this book. And of course it's not all inclusive of everyone. Who's life is, really? And I didn't get the feeling that she was negative in her references to transgender people, quite the opposite. She seemed to be defending them when she wrote about how her childhood feminist hero disappointed her in her outspoken views of them.
While I didn't agree with her about everything, a lot of what she said seemed bang on. It was nice to hear that (for instance) I'm not the only woman in the world who doesn't "get" fashion, and who thinks that a really expensive hand bag is a giant waste of money.
All in all I give this book a 4 out of 5.
I hope you agree that sexism is more than saying things like "women are stupid" or "women need men to protect them". the same logic is used by those of us who say that the "campy, tranny, fetish" line is disrespectful and that the "vagina test" is alienating. you can't be a trans ally and then use cissexist language in your feminist book.
Aglaea wrote: "pparently white people should write stuff even when we haven't had various experiences :) Because if we happen to remain silent about the wrong thing, we are actively excluding others. We should talk about those without privilege in a way that doesn't speak down to them but that makes us remain an ally only, yet we shouldn't speak for them but let them do their own thing. And since we should only tell the truth, to pull this whole thing off, we must first befriend the others, but they mustn't be fake friends either, but real friends. So if we can't find them locally, we must move abroad. So then we have had the right experienc..."Aglaea if all intersectional critique was that silly then I would entirely agree with you that its pointless and counter productive. I hope I have established enough of a reputation around here for being a reasonably thoughtful person that you will at least consider what I'm saying when I say that there is actual reasoned, inclusive, thought through intersectional critique that isn't like that. If you ever want to try to talk about what good as opposed to silly intersectionalism is about we could maybe try to do it in the Intersectionalism What is It, thread. Meanwhile I'm going to leave it.
Marina, to answer your question, she speaks of stripping and burlesque as an audience member, and she has experience as an audience member in both, so I don't really see what the problem is. The use of the word "tranny," too, was meant to describe a particular kind of cross-dressing camp that used to be popular. Obviously I don't think it was a good or kind word to use, but I do think context is important.
I like your last comment a lot, Bunny! I think the discussion about where intersectionality (beyond just inclusive language) belongs in this book is an interesting one. I think she could have been much more inclusive, but how and to what extent before it changed the memoir aspect of the book?
Bunny wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "pparently white people should write stuff even when we haven't had various experiences :) Because if we happen to remain silent about the wrong thing, we are actively excluding other..."Hmm, well, if I ever write "A Feminist Manifesto by Aglaea" it will hopefully be so good that angels will sing, because all intersections will be included in a manner that isn't condescending to those included, but informative and peppered with subjective opinions.
This, however, is a commentary on a memoir, and since we don't know each other at all apart from a few words exchanged online, you have no possibility of knowing what I would be able to include in my personal memoir in a genuine manner. Even if I could include for instance a small person (which I could), I wouldn't unless it made sense out of the storytelling perspective. I wouldn't include my friend just because, to be able to check a box to fulfill the requirements set by a very small set of intersectionality police of OSS. If I would include her, it would be because she is central to the story development, rather than some kind of "name-dropping" accessory to demonstrate that I do know what I'm talking about (it would be the ego talking rather than the soul). But chances are, she might not fit the fluidity requirements of the story, and so I would choose to leave her out. She, luckily, stands solidly on the ground and has a great sense of morbid humour as well as a sharp tongue and mind, always prepared to flaunt a bit of sarcasm. She'd be the last person to judge me for not including her in my memoir, but she would place the story in context, and would be deeply offended if she was name-dropped just because as the accessory that she absolutely isn't.
With that said, there are people in my acquaintance, who know very few unprivileged group representatives, and their memoirs would look accordingly. I refuse to judge them for this, and refuse to apply general intersectional "standards" (see the police comment above) to their memoirs, if they can write of no such experiences.
It should be possible to read this work as a memoir with feminist elements rather than feminist work with memoir elements. If people of the latter group feel like judging others for choosing the first group, then I'm really sorry about the state of the affairs here.The reason I quoted in another thread the bookshelves picked by Goodreads users and the amount of time this has happened was to show that subjectively, people have perceived it as both memoir and feminist work.
I don't think I want to participate in OSS if we start telling others how to perceive subjectively the percentage between memoir and feminist work. That's a certain flavour of fundamentalism that I can't stomach.
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Also, you can never please everybody. Caitlin Moran could totally tune her song to address a whole series of criticism, only to find that the chords are still unpleasant for yet another portion of people. It certainly looks like she has quite an attitude and manner of making her point on different stuff, which is probably a huge part of the reason she gets so much heat. Not that she doesn't want to, of course. But at the end of the day, well I have to agree with Aglaea here for a bit. It's a memoir. It is true that you cannot live 100% devoted to cover everyone's perspectives in a perfect, all-encompassing way - most of us can't, at least. It is even truer that it is wrong to befriend people in the spirit of a stamp collector. It just doesn't work that way.
I agree, she could have "dulled" it down with the use of different language etc but it wouldn't have been her book. I think that's why I did like it, because I had never read a book like it before!
I agree with that too. Part of the reason I found her likeable was because of how bold and real she was!
What a refreshing piece of writing.. I love how bold Ms Moran is! I am a new mom to a very spirited baby boy who keeps me so busy that I have no time to myself (I'm sure this sounds very familiar to many in the group!). Taking a few minutes of each day to read this book (and have a laugh) when my son is napping is just wonderful. Thanks Emma!
Hey everyone,So I finished Caitlin Moran's book yesterday.
I certainly laughed out loud at many moments and the hotly debated, "Abortion chapter", was very difficult to read and quite painful. So, in terms of an emotional journey, I think as a writer she did very well.
The book had a slightly rushed feel to it, and she says this in the epilogue, that it was written in a 5 month blur (paraphrasing).
It also had chapters that were a little polemic - but felt like the kind of rant you might hear at a dinner party after a few drinks, rather than a rational thought out argument. Fair enough, she was writing an autobiography and not a philosophical treatise but I feel an author has a responsibility, when putting out controversial views which could influence many people, to back up her claims up with well reasoned argument.
As a man, I will defer to the women in this group on this point, but I felt she was creating a very one sided view of an "empowered woman". Especially when she painted the dichotomy between Katie Price and Lady Gaga.
I personally feel there is a difference between an empowered person, and an uninhibited person. Lady Gaga may be an empowered feminist, as might Caitlin Moran, but that doesn't mean you can be a materialistic, self-involved hedonist.
Gaga threw her £10,000 cloak onto the ground in the sex club.
And Moran seems to swoon.
Whether Gaga was a man or a woman I would consider it a rather obnoxious thing to do.
That's just my feeling on those parts of the book.
But generally, I enjoyed the book. I don't think it would be on my top 10 recommendations though, unfortunately.
But, I am very glad I read it and am able to participate here.
Sebastian wrote : " As a man, I will defer to the women in this group on this point, but I felt she was creating a very one sided view of an "empowered woman". Especially when she painted the dichotomy of Katie Price and Lady Gaga. I personally feel there is a difference between an empowered person, and an uninhibited person. Lady Gaga may be an empowered feminist, as might Caitlin Moran, but that doesn't mean you can be a materialistic, self-involved hedonist."Sebastian, I want you to know I completely agree. To paraphrase another reviewer on this book, "I feel like she has a teenage like crush on Gaga and this really does not make her argument strong for Gaga and feminism."
I thought your comment on the book was right on point.
Emma wrote: "Crystal wrote: "To paraphrase another reviewer on this book, "I feel like she has a teenage like crush on Gaga and this really does not make her argument strong for Gaga and feminism." "Ha! I rea..."
Agreed Emma, I mean, who hasn't had a teenage crush on a celebrity. I'm practically head over heals for Patrick Dempsey, but yes, it doesn't make a strong argument. I'm glad my paraphrase made you laugh. :-)
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I thought the Gaga part was eh--I agreed to a point but not very strongly--but I was so so happy she mentioned that Katie Price is not a feminist icon. I also thought that bit where she followed her around was hilarious.
I really enjoyed this book and can't wait for the next one! :)
I found the book to be funny and entertaining, and I feel Caitlin Moran deserves credit for making feminism funny. Feminism (and perhaps other -isms) can seem so serious, and of course it is, but it can be great fun too. If you can't laugh at yourself, then your opponents definitely will.
If you haven't read Moran's piece in Esquire UK this month (April), then do. :)
Lots of generalizations, but better than I expected."If a young woman isn't to go mad, then masturbation is a needful hobby."
ehhh...
If she could just have replaced all the "we" and "us' with "I" and "me" I would have been totally down with it. But I don't find it all that helpful for her to publish a piece in a men's magazine with a wide circulation explaining what women think when I don't actually think a bunch of those things. If that's what "women" think then what am I? An octopus? A grove of aspen trees? That jokey 'now I'm going to let you in on the real deal' tone is cute, but meh, she's not actually speaker for woman kind. As one of my favorite t-shirts says, Women are Not a Hive Mind. We are individuals who have all sorts of individual opinions.
That article is reformatted but is almost word for word from the book. I specifically recall the excerpts from quite a few of the points. Whether that's a nod to being efficient or lazy (I say that without judgment :-) ), the target audience is more specific which is great on the education factor front and a positive to me. The "I" vs "we", etc. is similar to how the book read as well as she often started each chapter speaking from a very personal level and branched into the more message-y "we" type speak.
Yeah I think it's part of her general style. Which is kind of why I don't enjoy reading her work. I'm with her on the personal reflection part but as soon as she starts to go general and messagy she loses me.
Glad I read this.. It made me laugh out loud, cry, and think about things I haven't considered enough or at all. What an interesting, hilarious and thought-provoking memoir. Thank you Caitlin Moran - and thank you Emma Watson for choosing this book.
Bunny wrote: "Yeah I think it's part of her general style. Which is kind of why I don't enjoy reading her work. I'm with her on the personal reflection part but as soon as she starts to go general and messagy she loses me."What did you think of the abortion chapter then? It was surely the most personal, and even though she did give her general opinion on policy, it seemed to fit together. Whether you agree with her or not, you can certainly see what led her to those particular conclusions.
Here's my review: Book: How To Be A Woman
Author: Caitlin Moran
Rating: 4 Out of 5 Stars
Another Our Shared Shelf Reading! I'm only a few months behind the group on this one. My library took so long to get this.
I found this one to be a very entertaining and easy read. It is not all about Caitlin telling you her views on the world, but rather it feels like she is talking to you. She invites you to interact with the books and gets you thinking in a way that is kind of uncommon for nonfiction. Sometimes, I will admit, the humour was a bit too much, which made it kind of hard to take Caitlin serious in some places, which is why I only gave this book a four star.
I was kind of afraid to read this one, as many of my fellow readers have pointed out. I am very careful about the feminists books that I read. I do really believe that there should be gender equality, but I will not read books that have men bashing. I was really afraid was going to happen with this book and I did not want to get mad and end up hating it. This did not happen. I will say this enjoy the parts you like and think about the parts you didn't. It may give you some insight as to why you believe the way you do.
I do like that Caitlin seems to be the type of woman who likes to take matters into her own hands. She does not want to be pitied and goes on about how certain events in her life actually gave her the power to be who she is today. There is one case that really sticks out in my mind-I don't want to bring it up and spoil it for people who have not read the book. Though I don't agree with what she did, I do like how she is able to talk about and take that and grow/make herself stronger. She just is not ashamed of it, which, to me, makes her even stronger.
Caitlin was also pretty "one size fits all" in a few places. It does make a point, but not everything applies to all and she does not point that out. Again, her writing style really adds to this and almost hides it. Again, you really do have to think to even notice it.
Now, one thing that bothered me was Lady Gaga. Now, why in the world is Lady Gaga the symbol of feminism? Why? I get that she embraces everything, but still? Can't we find a better face? (Yeah, not a Gaga fan here. Sorry-not!) Listen loud and clear! Lady Gaga is not the first! Are we just supposed to forget about all of those other women that came first? I would have also liked to have seen the interview. I think it would have added more to the book than going to the pub, which is what is in the book.
Overall, not a bad read. I still think that I like My Life on the Road a lot better.
I just finished Caitlin's book and enjoyed it more then I thought I would. It made me think about things that happened in her life that I could relate too and confused me in areas that I couldn't relate-she is young and British and I am older and American so I didn't relate to the people she talked about and needing translating for some of her words. The abortion chapter was intense as she explained what happened when she had her abortion-made me think about the importance of birth control for both men and women even in a marriage. I still liked and related to My Life on the Road more.
Elisa wrote: "Leanne wrote: "Yes, Caitlin Moran isn't perfect. I'm surprised at the negativity this book is receiving here, though. It's a damn funny book. There's very little about trans people because this is ..."I think you make some great points. I think Moran is a perfect example of someone who approaches feminism in a different manner. I see far too many people who want their brand of feminism to be the be all end all type and that saddens me.
That's quite an oxymoron, given that the point of intersectional feminism is to listen to the marginalized groups and avoid speaking for all women/femmes/people with vaginas.
I agree. I think this is a funny, and honest, book. Sure, some parts of this book are a little "out there" or even slightly inappropriate, but I found it refreshing. This was the first book I have found about what growing up female is really like. She laid it all out there, and I'm proud. It was funny, honest, and well written. More power to her.
