Have We Reached A Saturation Point?

[Paul]

I read several blogs including SF Signal. Every single day there is yet one more fantasy novel or fantasy author to absorb into the genre. Add in all the self-published fantasy series authors and you have an incredible amount of work being put out there.

The problem is that so much of it has a sameness about it -- even the titles seem similar. For example, I might scream if I see one more novel with the word "sword" or "blade" in it. One more series set in a world only slightly different than some ancient corner of our world. I know there might be some unique ones out there -- perhaps some twisted author who completely makes up some bizarre milieu worth exploring -- but too much of it is the same thing warmed-over.

Honestly, I think I might just give up on it.

[Janny]

Paul, there are a lot of fantasy works with a great deal more originality and depth to them. The problem is, they won't very often be found in the internet stream of buzz and hype - which centers often around what is new, what is pop-culture, what is the current fad.

You would need to look more on the fringes to find such work - there is a rich trove - just most people are not aware of it/have not read it, or are following the trends that are so apparent - pushed by hype or huge numbers. Many of such books are not EVEN on the shelves in paper format at the big chains.

This is particularly true of books that have adult protagonists and are not in any way aimed at a YA market.

If you wish to provide clues as to what KIND of book you liked/what you are looking for, there are some folks here who are pretty widely read and might be able to give you a list of some titles to check out.

I wouldn't blame you for abandoning the genre for what you perceive. But a more careful look MAY help you not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There is also a site at www.fantasyliterature.com - they have a LIST of educated reviewers and last I looked OVER a thousand authors listed. The trick with this site is to look at their reviewers (once they had a page that listed them, and showed, by title, their ratings of each book reviewed) IF you can find one or two of them who match your taste, then you can rely on their other reviews to point up books you may easily have missed.

NOT all the titles they list on the site are reviewed or rated (some or many obscure ones have slipped their net, too) - the big huge difference with them that I noticed: their listings under the authors were both ACCURATE AND COMPLETE - something many of the major sites missed by a mile. And they had many many many more of the lesser known writers (traditionally published) included.

I've been reading in the genre for decades and while I share your frustration that there is a lot of stuff flooding the internet discussions, equally, there is also an amazing amount of stuff being written that does not follow the crowd sourced signal.

It is certainly worth looking deeper.

[[deleted user]]

If you go into a second-hand bookshop (if you can find one in your area!) and look at the shelves of Victorian hardback novels, you'll see loads of authors who are now forgotten because they produced mediocre stuff in the popular genres of the day. It's not a new problem.

The solution, I think, is not to read any fantasy novel that's less than five years old. (This suggestion will not make me popular with Goodreads authors, of whom I am one! Well, tough on us.) After five years there may be enough reader response on the net to give an idea of whether the book is worth reading. I would be wary of bloggers who pride themselves on being up to the minute with the new books; they are probably just making the problem worse.

Rule of thumb; the longer a book stays in the public eye, the better it's likely to be. LOTR is now 60 years old, and it's still widely read; that's how good it is. How many of the big names in fantasy publishing today will still be read in 2074? Not many, you can bet.

[Paul]

@Janny -- Thanks for the link. For some reason that one eluded me. I also have neglected reading Curse of the Mistwraith which is somewhere in my e-reader. I think I also have a hard copy on a shelf.

@Chris -- That is not a bad suggestion. See what has staying power and gravitate towards that.

[Paul]

@Shari Kay -- I tend to like S&S and wish there was more of that being done today. Less epic, more personal, almost noir-ish.

[L.G.]

There's no doubt that there are more authors out there, but there seem to be even more readers out there too. I do worry that people become so obsessed with following trends that they forget the most important things like engaging characters, good plots, immersive settings and so on.

[Paul]

The last fantasy author I really enjoyed was Joe Abercrombie. I like the way he plays with genres and twists expectations especially when it comes to characters. The only problem is that for all the character development, I often wonder what the point of it is. Unless Abercrombie's point is that life has no real meaning.

[[deleted user]]

Paul wrote: I tend to like S&S and wish there was more of that being done today. Less epic, more personal, almost noir-ish.

Have you read B.V.Larson, e.g. To Dream with the Dragons? Larson is on a mission to revive old-style S&S. I didn't care for it much, but then S&S isn't really my thing. Might be worth a try.

[Ken]

There is plenty of brilliant fantasy out there... both old and new. I think part of the magic (pun intended) of the genre is the fact that stories are only constrained by the author's imagination. There will never be a saturation point.

Having said that, a lot of absolute drivel has been published (self & trad) and there seem to be more copy-cat story lines than you could shake a wand at.

[Annie]

I personally don't mind fantasy stories being similar to each other. But I am sure that you will be able to find fantasy stories that are more 'original' to read. :)

[Paul]

Maybe I should search for "fantasy" and "twisted".

[Ken]

Paul wrote: "Maybe I should search for "fantasy" and "twisted"."

Out of interest, I Googled 'twisted fantasy' and got a page of info about a hip hop album called My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy by American recording artist Kanye West.

Not a lot of help there...

[Paul]

I think Kanye West makes for a good fantasy character -- he's a little hard to believe in real life.

[Paul]

Try the City and the City by China Mieville very good if you can get your head round it.

[Robert]

I never get tired of fantasy, and sure there is a lot that tend to blend together over time. That is why I choose mine carefully. Because of my work I don't get a ton of free time so It usually takes me a while to get through a story. That could be why the over saturation thing escapes me.

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

I read a dominant amount of fantasy and it never gets old for me.
If I don't like one story line I move on.

Mostly I follow authors I like.
:)

[K.A.]

I definitely think there's a 'bandwagon' effect - when something gets popular due to a TV show, movie, or very popular book, others emulate it, and you get a saturated sub-genre. I guess the solution to that would be to read out of currently very popular sub-genres...

[Marc]

Ken wrote: "There is plenty of brilliant fantasy out there... both old and new. I think part of the magic (pun intended) of the genre is the fact that stories are only constrained by the author's imagination. ..."

Copy-cat storylines aren't really the problem, it's the lack of interesting characters to make those old plots unique.

[Janny]

Paul wrote: "@Janny -- Thanks for the link. For some reason that one eluded me. I also have neglected reading Curse of the Mistwraith which is somewhere in my e-reader. I think I also have a hard copy on a shel..."

@Paul - thanks, and hope you'll give it a shot, someday! It's a slow burn build that doesn't tip its hand quick/definitely not a lightweight, skim sort of read. Nice thing about books - they are very patient, for whenever you're ready.

[Bev]

Have you considered looking at old fantasy award winners?

They often won because they were different or are well written.

Often the best series and stand alones in fantasy are from years ago but there is still some good new stuff too. I do agree though that there is a lot of poor stuff about and I wonder if that is because everyone is jumping on the self publication and ebook bandwagon?!

[L.G.]

Bev wrote: "Have you considered looking at old fantasy award winners?

They often won because they were different or are well written.

Often the best series and stand alones in fantasy are from years ago but ..."

One of the biggest advantages of a lot of old fantasy series is that they're actually finished! There are few things as frustrating as getting into a series, getting up to date, and then finding out that you have to wait ten years for the next book.

[Paul]

L.G. wrote: "Bev wrote: "Have you considered looking at old fantasy award winners?

They often won because they were different or are well written.

Often the best series and stand alones in fantasy are from ye..."


I could not agree more L.G I am waiting for Winds of Winter and Doors of Stone ASOIAF and Kingkiller respectively and I could not be more frustrated at how long it is taking for both.

[[deleted user]]

Bev wrote: I do agree though that there is a lot of poor stuff about and I wonder if that is because everyone is jumping on the self publication and ebook bandwagon?!

I think the major publishers are also partly to blame. The last few new fantasy novels I've tried from big publishers haven't exactly enthused me. I think what the arrival of self-published ebooks has really done is to make things more complicated. In principle, I think it's good that we no longer have timid publishers held back by their sales departments standing between us and the raw talent; the downside is that the raw talent is sometimes too raw and not very talented.

Bev wrote: Often the best series and stand alones in fantasy are from years ago

I'd second that. I'm currently reading Lyonesse, and I'm stunned by the sheer richness of Jack Vance's imagination. And he's also a witty and intelligent writer. Pure gold.

[Greg]

Read the article by Brandon Sanderson. I think people can still come up with a lot of new ideas.

Brandon Sanderson: "We haven't hit what epic fantasy is capable of yet"

http://io9.com/brandon-sanderson-we-h...

[mark]

I'm currently reading Lyonesse, and I'm stunned by the sheer richness of Jack Vance's imagination. And he's also a witty and intelligent writer. Pure gold.

yes!

I've enjoyed a lot of modern fantasy but doing rereads of my old favorites Vance and Tanith Lee and Silverberg have reminded me how awesome some of those authors were. one of my favorite things about pre-modern era (and I guess I'm defining modern as 90s and later) fantastic fiction is experiencing such a wealth of imagery and ideas and stylish prose all packed inside of novels that aren't really even that long.

[David]

It might read a bit dated now in style, but I really enjoyed Piers Anthony's 'Incarnations of Immortality' series, which is not typical of most fantasy. Another series I really enjoyed if looking for something different was Orson Scot Card's 'Alvin Maker' series.

[L.G.]

I don't think we'll ever really hit the full potential of what a genre can do. But there are always lulls, periods where we wait for someone to break the mould and really make a difference. It reminds me of how a lot of people felt before dark and gritty fantasy started making its mark. Now, we're waiting for the next wave of new and interesting stuff.

With regards to Sanderson, I do worry that he's stretching himself thin as there are some series I'd love to see continued that he seems to have set aside for the time being.

[Bev]

Hi if you are interested in reading some older fantasy in July check out the July thread in group discussions. Top of the group home page thanks.

[[deleted user]]

L.G. wrote: It reminds me of how a lot of people felt before dark and gritty fantasy started making its mark...

Purely personal, but if I want dark and gritty I can get it by switching on the news. I read to escape all that. (Remember Tolkien talking about the appeal of fantasy as 'the escape of the prisoner'?)

A world in which most new novels are dystopian is for that very reason more of a dystopia.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Chris wrote: "Purely personal, but if I want dark and gritty I can get it by switching on the news. I read to escape all that. (Remember Tolkien talking about the appeal of fantasy as 'the escape of the prisoner'?)

A world in which most new novels are dystopian is for that very reason more of a dystopia. "


I have to agree. Most of the stuff coming out now...does not interest me.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

L.G. wrote: "I don't think we'll ever really hit the full potential of what a genre can do. But there are always lulls, periods where we wait for someone to break the mould and really make a difference. It remi..."

The idea of MORE coming out before I can finish the stuff that already came out...defeats me, lol. I just want to catch up.

I still haven't finished Malazan.

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

I still haven't started it!
;)

[Susie]

Chris wrote: "L.G. wrote: It reminds me of how a lot of people felt before dark and gritty fantasy started making its mark...

Purely personal, but if I want dark and gritty I can get it by switching on the new..."My POV exactly. I love lyrical romantic fantasies like The Forgotten Beasts of Eld

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Brenda ╰☆╮ wrote: "I still haven't started it!
;)"

I've only read book 1 but I thought it was brilliant! If confusing. :-)

[Judy]

I'm actually finding more of the lighthearted, old-fashioned sword and sorcery in indie books at the moment. A couple that I found enjoyable included The Goddess's Choice and The Gauntlet Thrown.

A lot of the traditional stuff seems rather dark at the moment.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Judy wrote: "I'm actually finding more of the lighthearted, old-fashioned sword and sorcery in indie books at the moment. A couple that I found enjoyable included The Goddess's Choice and [book:..."

I'll go look them up but - to be honest - all the indie/SPA BS has made me not interested in their books.

[[deleted user]]

Susie wrote: I love lyrical romantic fantasies like The Forgotten Beasts of Eld...

I read your post, Susie, and had a sudden moment of worry. (I don't know if anyone else does this kind of thing - you're probably all too sensible.) Some months ago I replaced a lot of books with ebooks, for space reasons. There are some books, though, where an ebook just isn't good enough, and I had the sudden worry that in a moment of madness I might have got rid of my hardback copy of Riddle-Master: The Complete Trilogy. Just went to check - it's still there on my shelves. Phew.

Must make time to reread that one of these days. Lovely book.

[L.G.]

MrsJoseph wrote: "L.G. wrote: "I don't think we'll ever really hit the full potential of what a genre can do. But there are always lulls, periods where we wait for someone to break the mould and really make a differ..."

Oh, I'm not too keen on more of it either, I'm using it more as an example. In particular, there was a point when we had very little of it but now we have too much. Sooner or later, another style of fantasy will come up, depose dark and gritty, and then we'll complain about it too. That's the fun part.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Chris wrote: "I read your post, Susie, and had a sudden moment of worry. (I don't know if anyone else does this kind of thing - you're probably all too sensible.) Some months ago I replaced a lot of books with ebooks, for space reasons. There are some books, though, where an ebook just isn't good enough, and I had the sudden worry that in a moment of madness I might have got rid of my hardback copy of Riddle-Master: The Complete Trilogy. Just went to check - it's still there on my shelves. Phew.

Must make time to reread that one of these days. Lovely book."

Ok, this sounds terrifying! I love my copy of The Riddle-Master.

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

<3
Morgan of Hed

[Michael]

Obviously, tastes are subjective so you're well within your rights to dislike a book and TV series that others love. Personally, I never got into the Sopranos or the Dune books, no matter how my friends tried to explain why I *should* like them. Not an insult to them; something in the writing style didn't click and, well, they just weren't for me.

As for GRRM, though, what makes me love his writing is... well, his writing. Hard to explain but I find a lot of quality and pleasure in his prose style. As an illustration, I've always had an interest in both fantasy and contemporary poetry. Over the years, poetry made me appreciate the rhythms of speech a little more, I think, but it also killed my attention span. Long story short, until fairly recently, it got pretty tough to just sit down and read prose for hours and hours.

With the Song of Ice and Fire books, though, I was able to tear through them, reading for hours at a time--on the Kindle app on my phone, no less! I like that there's plenty of violence but the real emphasis is on character development, showing multiple perspectives, etc.

As a side note, I've heard some people have trouble getting into these books because of all the POV shifts. Not saying that's the case for you but if you're looking to give GRRM another chance, you might want to try his prequel novellas, "The Tales of Dunk and Egg," which are a little more fast-paced and follow a single narrative thread.

Either way, happy reading!

[Cas]

I love a character's story, more than anything. So while I may encounter some similarities in world-building, or magic systems, or creatures, if the character is solid, believable and I connect with them, I will read their story. Everything else is secondary.

For me it's always been, and always will be, about the characters. When I approach it that way, there are still so many books out there waiting to be discovered.

[Ken]

@Michael... I will definitely try Tales of Dunk and Egg. I've only read one and a half Game of Throne books and I did find them hard going (although I love the HBO series).

@Cas... that's a great point. The setting, world, magic system etc. all form a backdrop for the characters' stories.

[Christopher]

I suppose there are saturation points for certain things within culture. You can sort of see that with children's toys, clothing, music trends. Even with those things, though, you can still find creators creating away in their backwater eddies, long after the tide has shifted somewhere else (except for parachute pants--no one's making them or wearing them anymore, I hope).

I think the same thing holds true in terms of trends in book genres. The vampire colossus will probably be over in some years, but, even after that point, a diminished number of people will still be writing vampiric fiction.

I wonder if we reached a kind of saturation point in fantasy due to social shifts in morals? Moral high fantasy (Lewis, Tolkien, etc) fell out of fashion with the onset of GRR Martin, Abercrombie, etc., and their gritty realism approach (an amoral approach, I would argue), though there are authors still writing the old epic with a degree of moral compass.

[mark]

I think that there is an undercurrent of moralism in the two authors you've mentioned. a bleak, nihilistic version of moralism but still one that clearly recognizes 'good' from 'evil'. one that posits that doing good or even attempting to do good in a thoroughly evil (or at least thoroughly self-absorbed and power-hungry) world will often lead to tragedy and potential martyrdom. GRRM clearly positions his characters of Brienne, Jon Snow, and Danerys as moral characters who keep trying to do 'the right thing' at all times, and often against all odds. Abercrombie is the same - his lead characters often recognize a moral path, attempt to get on that path, but often fail. I would say that neither author is amoral but I do think they could occasionally recognize that the potential for good exists in many, rather than just the few.

[Christopher]

You're right, but it seems a very different sort of moralism in comparison to Tolkien's approach (and I would guess you'd agree, according to what you wrote in your last sentence). Tolkien's moralism was more hopeful, expecting good of the individual and that, according to the individual's choices, things would work out in the end, regardless of the mess along the way. Martin certainly does have a moral approach (I was probably reaching too far with the amoral tag), but, like you said, it can be a painfully bleak moralism.

Regardless, Martin's approach seems to be soup du jour of the day. And this day is lasting for quite a while, judging by his immovable position on the Amazon bestseller list, as well as the hordes of new fantasy writers following in his footsteps.

[mark]

I think we are in agreement!

I quite like and often admire those two authors but it would be impossible for me to read their novels back to back. excellent writers but the heaviness of their messages can be a bit much.

I think that the everything-is-pretty-much-fucked perspective (the GRRM/Abercrombie approach) and the black & white, you are either good or evil perspective are both equally unrealistic. not that I particularly mind that lack of genuine realism or understanding of, I suppose, 'the human condition'. but it is amusing to me that the grim & gritty approach in much of modern fantasy is supposed to somehow be a more realistic sort of fiction. I think realism lies somewhere in the middle and allows for a lot more diversity in its characters' outlooks and actions.

[Bryan]

I would go so far as to argue that there is also, for all their classically Judeo-Christian morality, a streak of amorality inherent in the worldviews of Tolkien and Lewis. Both of these authors had a definite concept of good and evil; not only were they presuming that they'd got it right in terms of what makes good and evil (thus "othering" viewpoints which conflict with theirs), but there is also the implication that there is such a thing as good or evil (of which I'm not necessarily sure). We can infer a bit more about Tolkien's worldview from his fantasy writings due to the depth of his worldbuilding. It was fairly clear in LOTR that Tolkien viewed the Shire as a sort of agrarian ideal, and the Shire was obviously heavily influenced by England. At the end of The Return Of King we see that those foolish and insular Hobbits (peasants) need rescuing from some big, bad outsiders and returning war heroes step up to the plate to nobly protect those who scorned them for leaving to in the first place. Needless to say, there are a number of troublesome assumptions made there with reference to class and militarism. Furthermore, Tolkien was clearly in love with the concept of a benevolent monarchy who rule justly and by divine right, which is great in a fantasy novel but didn't work out too well in Europe. Finally, there is an entire race of creatures who are straight-up evil (the Orcs), and who it is considered a patriotic duty of all right-thinking people to kill without mercy. This mentality exists in the real world as well, and is deeply problematic.

To my mind, the worldviews of Martin and Abercrombie aren't nihilistic, they're realistic. The worldviews of Tolkien and Lewis are at best naive and hopelessly outdated, and at worst classist, jingoistic and racist.

[Christopher]

Heavy, yeah. Martin depresses the heck out of me. I wonder, though, in terms of the thread's discussion of saturation, if there's going to be a swing away from the current gritty approach? Probably not for a while, I'd guess, judging from Martin's immovability on the Amazon lists. Watching his books not budge is sort of mind-boggling. Thousands of new Martin-readers are buying 'em, week after week, and the stream never seems to let up.

Perhaps they'll die out once the TV series is done. But, he keeps on writing books, so maybe the TV series will never be done.

[Paul]

The difference in feel between what Martin does and what Abercrombie does is that I get a feeling the former derives some sadistic pleasure from the deadly plot twists and that Abercrombie doesn't. They both might be realistic to some degree but I think Abercrombie's view is not that there's "evil" in the world, just that there are so many shades of gray that one has to push down the bile and choose based on other criteria.