A Clockwork Orange - Week 3 (April 2016)

[Rose]

Hi, guys!

This week's reading is about:

Chapters 11-16

Feel free to post your thoughts here.

[Luella]

I'm gonna go ahead and post early here since I have the time to finish this novel today. (view spoiler)[I have some mixed feelings about his parents agreeing to kick him out but on the other hand its kinda evident that if this medicine wore off he would hurt someone. He didn't seem to hurt his parents though as far as I can tell. I don't agree with this medicine I feel kinda of like the charlie about it. It's bad that people hurt other people but taking away choice doesn't seem like a decent thing to do either. Also doing the cure, it might wear off and then Alex would only be more pissed afterward.

It reminds me in a weird way of the South Park movie and the chip they put in Cartman's head to keep him from swearing. In the end it didn't take as there was a malfunction and it just made him madder. (hide spoiler)]

[Nicole]

Luella wrote: " I have some mixed feelings about his parents agreeing to kick him out but on the other hand its kinda eviden..."

(view spoiler)[ I actually disagree. I think his "treatment" was absolutely necessary, fair and, in a way, merciful. This society clearly has a huge problem with "ultra-violence" and, with extreme cases, extreme measures should be taken for the safety of the general public. In a way, Alex's treatment was just a perfected form of law; instead of being deterred via the threat of punishment (if caught), Alex is being deterred via physical anguish. Which, ironically, is what he's planning on committing against another human being. Can anyone say "an eye for an eye"? Alex is still free to live his life as he pleases, he's just being deterred from destroying the lives of others in a very literally way. JMO. (hide spoiler)]

Luella, I'm so glad you've gotten this far in the story and I have someone to talk to! Even more glad that your opinion is so drastically different than mine; makes the conversation more ... thoughtful. I'll be curious to see what you're final rating of the book is.

[Luella]

Nicole wrote: "Luella wrote: " I have some mixed feelings about his parents agreeing to kick him out but on the other hand its kinda eviden..."

[spoilers removed]

Luella, I'm so glad you've gotten this far in t..."

I also enjoy different opinions it keeps the mind fresh. Also no matter how much I disagree with someone I try to listen. Although there are some subjects its really difficult for me to be objective about. This one is not something I have a hard time with but I do have something to add.

(view spoiler)[It's kind of beyond eye for an eye now though. He can't have sex at all or even listen to his favorite music. Plus many of his thoughts cause him pain, the censoring of his dreams etc. It's enough to drive you mad! And he certainly isn't free to live his life. It is worse than sentencing him to death I suppose but it just seems like a step in the wrong direction. Then again this is from a totally detached view. I'm sure if I were Alex's victim I would see it differently.

I can see how these extra symptoms would be about akin to what a victim suffers. However, just as the charlie said, what is going on with Alex is insincere. He still wants to do bad things he just has a blocker now. Then lets look at it from a real life scale.

In real life prisoners were not considered to have rights, experiments were done on them there was a recent case were prisoners were sterilized. Once you get the ball rolling in a direction to affect someone's free will it just keeps going. I get that in the book the Government is trying to fix issues caused by people like Alex but how many other governments picked scapegoats to try to gloss over an issue. And how did that work out? (hide spoiler)]

[Nicole]

Luella wrote: "I also enjoy different opinions it keeps the mind fresh."

(view spoiler)[ No, Alex can't have sex anymore, or even listen to his favourtie music. But if you go back to our earlier conversations, we've established that both of these seemingly normal and relatively innocent endeavors are anything but for Alex. He doesn't want to have sex with a woman, he wants to brutally rape them. The question is, is it the 'ultra violence' that actually excites him? If his only route to arousal is violence, at what point do you start asking whether or not Alex SHOULD have the right to have sex. We currently treat pedophiles with medication to eliminate their sex drive; is that not an acceptable solution to a universally unacceptable act?

As for the music, Alex envisions himself committing terrible acts while listening to his music. He actually gets off imagining these things while listening to his music. So is the music a catalyst? Just a thought ...

I am not at all concerned with the fact that Alex's actions are insincere, indeed forced via negative reinforcement. If I was stuck in a room with Alex, I wouldn't give two wits about the moral dilemma of taking away a man's freedom to choose between his true self or a non-violent self. Lets be honest, Alex is never going to seek forgiveness and "earn" his way to heaven as he is anyway. If anything, I would say his only chance at redemption would be through understanding the agony he inflicted on other people. Maybe through experiencing that pain, Alex may become penitent.

As for the sterilization of prisoners, I'm sure those people didn't agree to treatment as Alex did. Yes, I agree that there should have been more disclosure as to the treatment process. But we've also already discussed the fact that corruption is rampant. An imperfect solution for an impossible problem ... (hide spoiler)]

[Luella]

Eh, agree to disagree I will. (*shrugs*)

[Kimberly]

Thanks Luella and Nicole. :) I love reading your different opinions. That's the main reason I joined this group, to see other people's opinions on different books. :)

(view spoiler)[Me, I agree more with Luella, but for slightly different reasons. I don't think it's going to work, in the end. They only gave him the meds for a week, then stopped. Then, let him out another week later claiming he's completely cured. How can they possibly know that? Sure, he appears to have no choice in the matter right now, but what about the human ability to adapt to new situations? Don't they realize that if they don't keep redoing the treatments, it's going to fade? Well, I haven't finished the book yet, but I'm pretty sure it will fade and he'll go back to the "ultra-violence."

Funny thing is, I'm all for "eye for an eye" (I'm only human). ;) I'd probably be all for the treatments, if it really worked. Even when I actually feel sorry for Alex that he can't even defend himself against the guys beating him up for beating them up. He did a lot of damage to innocent people and would have continued to commit violent acts. But, instead of this "cure," he needs to be taught to make the right choices, that the violence he commits is wrong. Like the prison Charlie was trying to do. But, that's just my opinion. ;) :)

And, although Alex agreed to the treatment, he didn't know what they were going to do to him. Not really. If he knew, I don't think he would have agreed to it. I bet if he could go back, he wouldn't make the same choice. (hide spoiler)]

[Kimberly]

Oh, I forgot! There was something else...

(view spoiler)[How on Earth did Dim become a police officer?! :O And, the guy from the other gang? I can't believe it! But, them taking Alex out in the country for a whooping doesn't surprise me. Both of them were part of the "ultra-violence" and now, ironically, they can get their kicks "legally." (hide spoiler)]

[Nicole]

Kimberly wrote: "Thanks Luella and Nicole. :) I love reading your different opinions. That's the main reason I joined this group, to see other people's opinions on different books. :)

Me, I agree more with Luella..."

Kimberly, I absolutely agree that teaching Alex the error of his ways, so to speak, would be the morally sound option. I guess I hadn't even thought of that as an option as his violent nature seems to be an integral part of who he is. He's such a horrible character!

[Nicole]

Matt wrote: " Does anyone feel sorry for Alex having to go through this "treatment"? I don't feel sorry for him at all. I wonder if the author is trying to get readers to feel sympathy for him. ..."

I'm right there beside you Matt. I think Alex got everything that was coming to him, less so than what he deserved. Absolutely no redeeming qualities what-so-ever.