The Pickwick Club discussion
Little Dorrit
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Reading Schedule, and General Remarks
message 51:
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Tristram
(new)
May 11, 2016 08:48AM
Neither have I read that book but I'm a stickler when it comes to punctuation, the meanings of words and grammar. I once was asked by a colleague whether I'd happen to see some other colleague in the course of the day, and I told him that I considered that a very strange question. "After all," I said, "how would I know that I was going to see that person if it depended on happenstance." And that man, the one who asked the question, was actually a language teacher.
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Mary Lou wrote: "If you haven't, read Lynne Truss's (or should it be Truss'?) book on grammar and punctuation, Eats, Shoots & Leaves."Oh, I'm trying so hard not to get on my anti-Truss bandwagon. She made so many grammar errors in her book that it almost does more damage to the English language than Webster's Third Edition did.
Mary Lou wrote: "If you haven't, read Lynne Truss's (or should it be Truss'?) ..."If any of my students had written Truss' in a paper, they would have dropped a grade. Strunk and White's Elements of Style was the bible for them. See Rule I.1.
I know some grammar barbarians are trying to get Truss' adopted because they're too lazy to write it correctly. I'm not, and neither are my students.
I tried to hold out, but I just couldn't. The need was too strong. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/200...
Everyman wrote: "Oh, I'm trying so hard not to get on my anti-Truss bandwagon...."Oh, my -- I've opened a can of worms! According to my records, I read the Truss book in 2006, so it's been a decade. I just remember laughing a lot, particularly when she talked about carrying a Sharpie around so she could correct signs she came across (something I've often wanted to do). I don't remember noticing errors, or hearing that there were so many.
I'm not thin-skinned, so never hesitate to disagree with me (as long as it's done politely, of course). Nor do I mind being corrected when it comes to grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I'd rather be corrected so I can do things correctly the next time. Of course, the bugaboo comes in when there are disagreements as to how things are properly done.
Now, let's talk about whether or not the 't' is pronounced in the word "often". (And also whether that period should have gone inside the quotation marks. So many dilemmas! Or is it dilemnas? MY HEAD MAY JUST EXPLODE.)
My tuppence:I think the "t" in "often" should not be pronounced at all because the tendency to pronounce it has come with a view to its spelling. In the German word "oft", the "t" is pronounced, by the way. However, you don't pronounce the "t" in "soften", and so, I think, you shouldn't in "often".
The period should not have come within the quotation marks because it is not part of the quotation.
The plural of "dilemma" would be, in my view, "dilemmata" because it is a Greek word, and here you normally use the Greek plural forms - criteria, phenomena, crises, hypotheses, octopodes etc. You might also just say "a bunch of problems" or "dire straits" if you hate "dilemmata".
What do you think about "an" before words like "historian"? I think it perfectly all right since I tend to pronounce the "h" but lightly.
Tristram wrote: "My tuppence:I think the "t" in "often" should not be pronounced at all because the tendency to pronounce it has come with a view to its spelling. In the German word "oft", the "t" is pronounced, ..."
I LOVE THIS GROUP. :-)
Hmmmm, what about "I'm loving it"? In Germany, McDonald's uses this slogan but I consider the progressive form in connection with "to love" just barbarous.
Tristram wrote: "Hmmmm, what about "I'm loving it"? In Germany, McDonald's uses this slogan but I consider the progressive form in connection with "to love" just barbarous."I'm so glad I didn't say, "I'M LOVING THIS GROUP!"
My dad actually was a/an historian for the National Park Service, but I've never known which is correct. My brother followed in his footsteps, and both are published authors so they probably have looked into this. I'll have to ask my brother what he considers to be correct.
I fear we're in the minority on the silent 't' issue.
Mary Lou wrote: "And also whether that period should have gone inside the quotation marks."In England, outside. I the U.S., inside.
Remember what Professor Higgins sang about English?
"The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely
disappears.
In America, they haven't used it for years."
Tristram wrote: "The plural of "dilemma" would be, in my view, "dilemmata" because it is a Greek word, "What a silly man you are, to think that English should be either logical or consistent!
When in doubt, consult a reputable dictionary. (Not Webster's 3rd. It's about as reputable as a dancing woman in a 1880s Colorado saloon.)
In the OED, since no other plural form is given, it's dilemmas.
Mary Lou wrote: "I fear we're in the minority on the silent 't' issue."I don't really know. It may be so at the moment, but as a teacher, I have the chance of increasing the number of those who don't pronounce the "t" in "often", which suits me down to a ... T.
Everyman wrote: "What a silly man you are, to think that English should be either logical or consistent! "May a man not dream? And of vast things like a language indebted to logic and consistency? Why do we spell "indebted" with a "b"? For consistency's sake! ;-)
FYI, from my brother the professional historian and author:In the best tradition of historians everywhere, I will hedge my bet by saying that it could go either way. That being said, when talking about a lone historian (a topic that doesn't come up in many conversations) most people say "an historian." Since that's the way it's usually said, that's the way I would write it. Sad to say, Dad never contributed his thoughts to this weighty topic.
There you go -- clarity. ;-)
Tristram wrote: "My tuppence:1. I think the "t" in "often" should not be pronounced at all because the tendency to pronounce it has come with a view to its spelling. In the German word "oft", the "t" is pronounced, ..."
why don't you just spell it like coffin while you're at it
2. The plural of "dilemma" would be, in my view, "dilemmata"
" just, put, an, s, on, the, end, of, it, already.".
3. criteria, phenomena, crises, hypotheses, octopodes etc. You might also just say "a bunch of problems" or "dire straits" if you hate "dilemmata".
Be quiet.
Mary Lou and Tristram, we were taught to use a silent 't' in 'often'. (Both my school teachers and elocution teacher were agreed on this point). Yes, I know, an elocution teacher seems to be just a little archaic and even sinister as it is only a few letters short of electrocution. This more sinister species of teacher was (largely) transformed into our gentle (to the unsuspecting students) drama teachers of today. There are many proper 'dahhlings' among them, but also the twisted who slipped through the net while life was looking the other way.Everyman, I loved the clip of HMS Pinafore. For some reason my father loved Gilbert and Sullivan. I think it was mainly during a time when he was performing in an amateur dramatic version of it. Hearing that again whisked me back to childhood. Sweet. Tristram, I also enjoyed your snippet from the Simpsons. Kelsey Grammer's voice suits
the part well. Very chilling. I have been taught a certain appreciation of 'The Simpsons' by my children.
Everyman, some of our children acted in 'My Fair Lady' when they were young. It always irked me that Henry Higgins was not careful in his use of the English language despite his expatiating. The people are not 'Scotch' but Scots or Scottish. Scotch is the drink. Mind you it seemed to be the popular misnomer at the time. Even our dear Mr Dickens used it so I assume that it was accepted usage then.
Tristram, I'm doing my Homer impression again: I don't understand your explanation for 'I'm loving it'. That's a new one on me.
And finally, Everyman, surely your parents were disappointed in such a ne'er-do-well of a son? ;-). Did you ever think of a full-time job? You know, 24 hours? ...
Kim, yet again you make me laugh out loud. There'll be more than one 'be quiet' from you if you drag yourself through my screed.
Btw, I haven't given up on LD quite yet, I'm just slipping farther and farther behind.
Hilary wrote: "Kim, yet again you make me laugh out loud. There'll be more than one 'be quiet' from you if you drag yourself through my screed."Yeah you kind of lost me back around the time of your "elocution teacher" whatever or whoever that may be. Whatever it may be, if I had one while I was in school I never noticed. Or learned anything. Hmm......maybe it's something to do with math.
Hahaha! Yep, that's right. We had to count how many times we opened and closed our mouths every 15 minutes, how many times we yawned etc. I agree: boring. You must sing 'boring'. First syllable is a high A (I know!) and then down in the doldrums somewhere. I think it was a low B flat. Difficult on the ears.Well, it wasn't that. It was one of my many extracurricular activities (actually nothing to do with school). My parents kindly ferried me around. Ballet classes, which were some distance away, were most productive. I loved ballet, but the girls who went there were very snooty. They didn't make any attempt to speak to me. I was just the waif and stray who had been ferried in from the country. One girl was kind. She took me under her wing and our teacher was lovely. She was an old friend of my mother and used to motivate us with "Now come along Duckies. Commit. Commit."
Sorry Kim, I'm sure that you're quite asleep now. I know I am. ;-)
Hillary, happy to have taken you back to a fond childhood memory of your father and G&S. He was lucky to be able to act in it; I was able to be active behind the scenes (set design, lighting, and pit orchestra) for several productions, but never got in front of the footlights.My parents -- well, my father, my mother died while I was in high school -- didn't consider me a neer-do-well for exercising my career talents in various directions at various times, but recognized that having to stay within one career all my life would have bored me to tears. I loved to dig into something new, find an organization with a major problem, jump in and solve it, and then move on. Steady state or simply maintaining something has never satisfied me. I know it does a lot of people, but I need constant challenge and stretching in new directions.
Firstly, Everyman, I do hope that you didn't for one second think that my ne'er-do-well statement was anything but tongue in cheek! It was merely underlining that you were the very opposite of a ne'er-do-well, exercising all of your talents even as a musician in the orchestra pit. You very much remind me of my husband. He is always doing one job after an other or juggling several at the same time. He's always involved in some strategy of one kind or another; not happy if he's not thinking of yet another innovation. If there's a time slot free he feels it necessary to fill it. Oh I'm so, so sorry about your mother. What a difficult time for you to have to deal with such a great loss. I know, of course, that there's no easy time to cope with such an event. I'm so sorry for any insensitivity on my part.
Yes indeed my father enjoyed being on stage, but it was local amateur dramatics. He took part in lots of kitchen comedies. In his mind I'm quite sure that he was just as happy in a local hall as he would had it been The Globe or The RSC.:-)
Hilary wrote: "Firstly, Everyman, I do hope that you didn't for one second think that my ne'er-do-well statement was anything but tongue in cheek! "Oh, I was SO hurt. I crawled under my bed to grieve and wouldn't come out until my wife finally tempted me out with fresh warm chocolate chip cookies. Even then she had to console me with, well, better not say with what on a family friendly website. Suffice it to say that I made the most of my grieving and got every benefit I could out of it.
Yes indeed my father enjoyed being on stage, but it was local amateur dramatics.
My father, too, took to a local stage a few times, but I have to admit that he wasn't a very versatile actor. He could play the loving but stern British father roles to perfection, and the haughty aristocrats equally well, but any role that required diffidence or modesty was, I fear, beyond his talents.
Hilary wrote: "Tristram, I'm doing my Homer impression again: I don't understand your explanation for 'I'm loving it'. That's a new one on me."I didn't really explain it, I'm afraid, but just made some apodictic remark on it. Now, here's my explanation: Unlike the simple form, the progressive form seems awkward when used in connections with verbs that express states of feeling or mental states. Very often there would be a slight change in meaning as between:
"He is very friendly" [i.e. his normal personality]
vs.
"He is being very friendly today" [i.e. he is putting it on for some reason, and is actively behaving in a friendly way]
Therefore, "I'm loving it" sounds very peculiar and wrong to me, except if it is used in order to underline that we are not talking about a general like or dislike, as in
"Normally, I hate Victorian novels, but I'm really loving this Dickens book I'm reading."
That would not sound so wrong to me. Nevertheless, I'm no native speaker, and that it probably why I even give some thought to questions like these, trying to find out rules and regularities.
Kim wrote: "why don't you just spell it like coffin while you're at it"Do you mean at or in it? In this case, it makes a world of a difference.
As you are mentioning such things as dancing lessons, drama groups, weekly electrocution sessions etc, I really wonder how many things my own son is doing in the course of one week next to school: There is the guitar lesson and the extra Spanish lessons for young native speakers (my wife being from Argentina, we encourage our children to grow up in two languages) on Monday, there's swimming on Wednesday, the guitar ensemble on Thursday, and the sports club on Friday. When I was his age, I only had football, and school, and the rest of the time we boys went roving free through forest and field - just like Tom Sawyer.
Hahaha, Everyman, I see why you don't drink alcohol as you have absolutely all the joy you need right there! I'm so glad that the cookies went part of the way in bringing you out of the doldrums, :-)Tristram, what was that word you used ? Ofosiphilic ofodictator orionthehunter? I have never heard that word before, Now as for 'I'm loving it' I think I understand most of what you're saying, it's not a phrase that I use ordinarily, but now I can't get it out of my head!
It's great that your son does so much apart from school and fabulous that he'll grow up bilingual. When our children were small we thought of moving to Spain. A missed opportunity. Brendan's brother and family lived there for eight years. Their children are bilingual and their eldest daughter is married to a Spanish man living in Madrid and they have a little baby.
Everyman, your description of the parts your father would have played gives me some insight into the kind of man he was. I can imagine that you are like him in many ways. It's strange: my mother and father died in 1997 and 1998 and I still miss them terribly. My mother was my very best friend.
Tristram wrote: "I didn't really explain it, I'm afraid, but just made some apodictic remark on it..."Sorry I just can't resist:
"i'm lovin' it is a branding campaign by McDonald's Corporation. It was created by Heye & Partner, McDonald's agency based in Unterhaching, Germany, near Munich, and a member of the DDB Worldwide Communications Group, Inc. It was the company's first global advertising campaign and was launched in Munich, Germany on September 2, 2003, under the German title ich liebe es. This is only used in Germany; in Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein, the English slogan is used."
Five Things You Never Knew About I'm Lovin' It:
1 Before “I’m Lovin’ It,” no McDonald’s ad campaign had lasted longer than four years. The prior longevity champs were “McDonald’s is your kind of place” (1967 to 1971) and “It’s a good time for the great taste of McDonald’s” (1984 to 1988).
2 Though the cheeseburger may be an American invention, “I’m Lovin’ It” is not. Developed by the German agency Heye & Partner, the campaign actually premiered in Munich as “Ich Liebe Es.”
3 The first worldwide McDonald’s campaign, it has appeared in 120 countries in more than 20 languages, though to varying effect (Azerbaijan’s “Bax, Budur Sevdiyim” translates to “See, this is the love.”)
4 McDonald’s paid Justin Timberlake an estimated $6 million to sing the inescapable “ba-da-ba-ba-bah” jingle in the first U.S. “I’m Lovin’ It” TV spots in 2003.
5 Pharrell Williams produced a three-track “I’m Lovin’ It” E.P.—complete with an instrumental version—in November 2003. It topped the charts in Belgium.
Well, I was forced to pull a Kim today. Here it is the middle of May, and I had -- I cringe to admit it -- to pretend it was Christmas.I had to send a letter and I didn't realize that the only stamps we had left in the house were Christmas stamps. We buy some every now and then but never send enough cards to use them up, so save some for the next year. But I was desperate, so, I hang my head in shame, had to put a Christmas stamp on a May letter.
Okay, Kim, go ahead and gloat.
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I didn't really explain it, I'm afraid, but just made some apodictic remark on it..."Sorry I just can't resist:
"i'm lovin' it is a branding campaign by McDonald's Corporation. ..."
Thanks, Kim, the more we are talking about "I'm loving it", the less wrong it seems ;-) Which should not make us dither in our puristic attitude towards language ;-)
I was actually quite surprised when I read the second bit of information that the slogan was developed by a German agency. Maybe they did not even know how wrong it actually is?
Hilary wrote: "Tristram, what was that word you used ? Ofosiphilic ofodictator orionthehunter?"I'm not sure I ever used that word. However, it looks so impressive - and it might gain so much weight in the field of palaeontology or something that is to do with saurians - that I sincerely wish I had actually used it. It also reminds me of cookies, somehow.
Everyman wrote: "Well, I was forced to pull a Kim today. Here it is the middle of May, and I had -- I cringe to admit it -- to pretend it was Christmas.I had to send a letter and I didn't realize that the only st..."
Yea!!!!! Finally!!!! Scrooge is giving in to the most wonderful time of the year, and me. You will be happy to know that we are also still using the Christmas stamps, what else is there??? Send me a Christmas card this year, you have 221 days to decide what you want to write in the card.
Kim wrote: "Send me a Christmas card this year."Yeah, right.
Did the talk of Christmas finally kill this thread? Never mind I loved reading it anyway (using the tense "I'm loving it" makes no sense to me, but I think I'm missing (yes, I'm missing, not "I miss") an important component there ...)It's "an hotel", of course, but the aitch is silent. And if anyone pronounces the word "aitch" itself with an "h" ("haitch") they should immediately be taken to a place of execution and be hanged, drawn and quartered ...
Oh I nearly forgot ... I am starting Little Dorrit in about a fortnight's time, and will slowly catch you up :) That's the plan anyway.
Jean wrote: "they should immediately be taken to a place of execution and be hanged, drawn and quartered ..."'arsh penalty!
Haha Jean! You English and your funny pronunciations. Of course, we Irish know that words like hotel, abhorred etc. are really pronounced with a 'haitch' sound. The majority of my countrymen and women pronounce 'h' haitch'. In the South and the more southerly counties, of course, they say 'haitch'. I lost the proper sound from birth and our family fell into the secret English trap! :p at some time in their hhhistory of saying the letter 'haitch' ohne (for Trist!) the 'h' sound. I must relearn my alphabet and give 'h' its full pronunciation! ;)You see this comes from our native language, God's tongue: the Irish language. ;-). Begorrah, sure we Irish have understood, begorrah, that if you see a 'haitch' it would be tantamount to a sin of omission to drop it. As we sound the letter 'h' as 'haitch', it is incomprehensible that such a lovely letter is to be seen but not heard.
I hhhope that you hhhave a hhheavenly day, Jean and the top o' the mornin' to ya! ;-). ;-) ;-). :D. :D. :D
Hilary wrote: "Haha Jean! You English and your funny pronunciations. Of course, we Irish know that words like hotel, abhorred etc. are really pronounced with a 'haitch' sound. The majority of my countrymen and wo..."https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...
Awh i LOVE that musical! Rex Harrison is genius. 'Scotch' though? Tut tut tut!Thanks so much for this most nostalgic look down Memory Lane, Everyman. The Irish and the Americans do not come off well. When do we ever?!
"Ow, Professor Higgins", you are so wonderfully snooty! Shaw is superb. I know that he doesn't bear all of the responsibility for this drastic, nevertheless, delightful spin-off, but I hope that he would have been happy ...
Really, Rex Harrison could sing whatever he liked and I'd doff my cap reverently with an obsequious "whatever you say, guvna". I am jelly in his hands, I say, jelly!
Jean wrote: "Oh I nearly forgot ... I am starting Little Dorrit in about a fortnight's time, and will slowly catch you up :) That's the plan anyway."I'm looking forward to your joining our Dorrit discussions, Jean! We are travelling at a leisurely pace, so it's not too hard to catch up with us.
Jean wrote: "It's "an hotel", of course, but the aitch is silent."That's interesting information from a native speaker ... I mean the aitch in 'otel being silent. According to most of my colleagues - non-native speakers - it is pronounced, and maybe it is theoretically, but honestly ... who would pronounce the aitch in 'otel or 'istorian. It's much easier to drop it and to use "an" as the indefinite article. Just as you don't really say "Good morning" but "Goobmorning" in everyday speech, the b and m both being labials.
As to when the aitch is really silent - except in words like "hour" and "honour", I have the following theory:
If the word has more than one syllable and if the first of these is not stressed, I'd say one tends to drop the aitch. If the first syllable is stressed, you tend to pronounce the aitch, as in "humble" (except if you are Uriah Heep).
Well, I've gone and done it again and slid off my reading schedule of Little Dorrit. My apologies to everyone here.It started back in mid-May when we went out of town for a long weekend and I didn't get my reading done. A week went into two, and when I saw the posts begin to pile up here, I kept telling myself that I needed a good chunk of time to sit down and read through them and get caught up on my reading. Well, then I had so much other stuff happening throughout June that I didn't make LD a priority. We had end of the school year activities, my daughter's ballet dress rehearsals and big recital (this year it was at an old historic theatre in downtown so it was pretty special), experiments to finish at work in order to get my manuscript resubmitted for publication, a grant deadline in the lab to meet, my parents staying with us for a few days, and finally birthday upon birthday upon birthday. My two children were born just over a week apart (5 year span), and my birthday is in the middle of the two (I really didn't plan it that way!).
Now that all of school, ballet, and work deadlines are in the past, I've picked up LD again and have been trying to remember who is who in the story and where I left off. I believe I've sufficiently revived my memory after reading several chapters and I hope to catch up to you all and be able to finish the book along with the schedule. Last night I just finished Book 1, and am about to start Book 2. And I am going to look over all the posts I have missed, I know how much work Kim and Tristram put into writing up the nice summaries and posting all the illustrations.
Linda wrote: "Well, I've gone and done it again and slid off my reading schedule of Little Dorrit. My apologies to everyone here.It started back in mid-May when we went out of town for a long weekend and I did..."
Linda
Good to hear from you, neighbour. And Happy Birthday to you and family.
Linda wrote: "Well, I've gone and done it again and slid off my reading schedule of Little Dorrit."Same here, but for different reason. But I'm gradually trying to catch up. Fortunately, there's time; the book goes, I think, until Mid-August.
Thanks Peter! I always miss the group when I'm not checking in regularly.Everyman, I'm glad I'm not alone, and I hope you can catch up as well. I felt bad having this happen for two books in a row!
Linda, since we are not reading a lot of chapters per week, I'm sure you can catch up ;-)
Hi Lindsay,We are just about at the end of Little Dorrit, which amazes me - it seemed to go so fast. After this week's conclusion which will be on Saturday or Sunday, I'm not sure which yet, a few days after that we will post a "reflections on the novel as a whole" thread. I haven't talked to Tristram about it yet, he's still on his holiday, but I think we will start pretty soon after that. Perhaps taking a week or so to finish discussing Little Dorrit and getting A Tale of Two Cities ready. I'll let you know as soon as I talk to him about it. Have a great day.
I can't believe I didn't manage to catch up yet! Ah well, I'm enjoying all your comments as I go, and thanks for all the great and varied illustrations plus commentary, Kim :)If you fancy having a short hiatus before the next one I'm all for that! Are there any sketches left?
