THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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2016 - April - Theme Read on any Air Battle or Campaign of WW2
An old one (now also sadly lost, and fetching ridiculous secondhand prices) is Eino Luukanen's Fighter Over Finland, a first-hand chronicle of the Finnish Air Force's two brief, unequal contests with Russia in anything that would (sort-of) fly.
Rick - it seems the more I read, the more questions I have :-)
Skylar wrote: "Rick - it seems the more I read, the more questions I have :-)"You have joined the right group then, there are a few of us just like you :)
Skylar wrote: "Rick - it seems the more I read, the more questions I have :-)"Sums my entire life up!
Think this is Overy's conclusion as well in the Bombing War. Once the Americans started targeting fuel supplies in 1944 , not only production sources but also transportation links then the Germans war effort was fatally constrained.
On Taylors Dresden I have made it to page 55 and so far this is making very good reading. The prologue is fairly typical of prologues in that it is seemingly a short coverage of what is to come. Chapter 1 through to 5 cover the history of Dresden from the dawns of time through to the city becoming part of the 3rd Reich. Typical of these books they suck you in to degree by having you look up obscure, at least obscure to me, locals that play a part in the narrative. The stand outs to me are artists Otto Griebel and Otto Dix. I have been searching their stories on the www and would like to read further one day. Very happy to be reading this so far. Very accessible.
Very glad to hear you are enjoying Frederick Taylor's book on Dresden, I think you will find it only gets better.
by Frederick Taylor
Hi Alex - Overy is good with statistics so I will look up what he has to say about German fuel supplies. Thanks for mentioning him!
I'm joining this month's group read with --
Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic by Kenneth Poolman.
4ZZZ wrote: "On Taylors Dresden I have made it to page 55 and so far this is making very good reading. The prologue is fairly typical of prologues in that it is seemingly a short coverage of what is to come. Ch..."I found it to be a very reasonable book, and it challenged a lot of the earlier material I had read on it. It's worth sticking to right through the appendices. If you haven't already, you might like to check out some of Martin Middlebrook's works. Just as good, although with a lot less involvement on the ground.
Happily second Jonny's recommendation on Martin Middlebrook's books.
Jonny wrote: "4ZZZ wrote: "On Taylors Dresden I have made it to page 55 and so far this is making very good reading. The prologue is fairly typical of prologues in that it is seemingly a short coverage of what i..."Geevee wrote: "Happily second Jonny's recommendation on Martin Middlebrook's books."
A new name to me. If I see his work around I will definitely have a look. Thanks.
He's definitely one of the better one's around!I really liked his book on Schweinfurt-Regensburg Aug '43 mission. - The Schweinfurt Regensburg Mission: The American Raids on 17 August 1943
Its a good read. 4ZZZ might want to try
The Battle of Hamburg: Allied Bomber Forces Against a German City in 1943
As a companion to Dresden
From Kenneth Poolman's
Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic.The prototype of the Focke-Wulf Condor was powered by four American Pratt & Whitney engines. Later the designers switched to BMW radial engines. An early Condor made the first nonstop flight from Berlin to New York in August, 1938. It took 24 hours, 36 minutes with an average speed of 158 mph over 3,959 miles. The return took only 19 hours, 55 mins.
Pretty impressive flight details and interesting about the Pratt & Whitney engines.
I found these statistics pretty interesting but dare say nothing unusual for any air force prior to WW2:" ... In fact, while 485 Australian aircraft were lost to enemy action in the South-West Pacific Area throughout the war, a staggering 740 were lost in accidents at flying training schools."
by Mark D. Johnston
The author of my book quoted a few early impressions of RAAF Catalina's:"They were by no means fast: it was joked that to make a rendezvous the Cat's navigator needed a calendar rather than a stopwatch, and that Catalina's had endured bird strikes from the rear."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "" ... In fact, while 485 Australian aircraft were lost to enemy action in the South-West Pacific Area throughout the war, a staggering 740 were lost in accidents at flying training schools.""
Things improved during the war then, at least for Bomber Command. Overy cites training casualties as 5.327 killed & 3.133 injured. Counting only the dead, that does indeed correspond to 10% of a total of 55.000 over the course of the war.
Just read chapters 6 through to 8 of Dresden. Chapter 7 is about the treatment of the local Jewish population. Mans inhumanity to man still continues to amaze me no matter how much I read. Chapter 8 is a brief history of aerial warfare and the "laws" of said subject. That was a fascinating chapter for me personally. I have to admit that my reading on this area has tended to be macro as apposed to micro and this chapter was no different in that respect. With that in mind, time allowing and a couple of nice recommendations that have come my way, it is an area that I need to read up on a bit more deeply.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author of my book quoted a few early impressions of RAAF Catalina's:"They were by no means fast: it was joked that to make a rendezvous the Cat's navigator needed a calendar rather than a sto..."
Maybe so but they played an important role despite their speed. How many downed airmen came home because of the Cat? I like the bird strike from the rear comment. lol
The RAAF crews all loved the Cat once they started flying them.
Michael wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author of my book quoted a few early impressions of RAAF Catalina's:"They were by no means fast: it was joked that to make a rendezvous the Cat's navigator needed a cale..."
Low and slow are good qualities when practicing ASW.
from:
Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic by Kenneth Poolman.The advent of the Condor C-1 aircraft significantly upset the operational plans and activities of the Royal Navy and the British merchant fleet. The British had no defense against the Fw200 shipping strikes far out to sea. In September 1940, just KG-40 alone, flying from Bordeaux-Merignac, sank 90,000 tons of shipping. First, the Admiralty changed all shipping instructions. Incoming ships had to reach Longitude 10 degrees West by dawn, outward bound ships the same by dusk. This would put them through the Focke-Wulf danger zone in darkness. Later they were routed even more northward. Next, since neither the RN nor RAF Coastal Command had aircraft of sufficient range to escorts merchants through the danger zone, the navy began scrambling to create alternatives. Ideas included catapult-launched aircraft for merchants (but catapult technology wasn't that easily adaptable), installation of barrage balloon and cable defense systems on ships, and scouring of shore facilities for AA guns to install aboard merchants. Lord Beaverbrook privately financed the Miles M.20 – a lightweight all-wood fighter with an endurance of 72 minutes at 295 mph and an undercarriage that could be jettisoned for ditching. It wasn't a great success. The situation looked bleak.
I think I read in one of my recent books on the Atlantic Campaign that Goering wasn't too keen to share the Conder and its capabilities with the Kriegsmarine.
The author of my current book mentioned the action during the Malaya campaign that led to the award of the VC to Squadron Leader Scarf of 62 Squadron. Here is a very interesting web page on Arthur Scarf VC:http://www.far-eastern-heroes.org.uk/...
And another great web page:
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/scar...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think I read in one of my recent books on the Atlantic Campaign that Goering wasn't too keen to share the Conder and its capabilities with the Kriegsmarine."True. The Condor was a surprise success. Most resources went into the Heinkel 177 Greif as a long-range bomber. The Condor was developed in the pre-war era solely as a commercial transport. Work done for a Japanese contract led to the Fw 200-0 which became the long-range ocean recce model.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author of my current book mentioned the action during the Malaya campaign that led to the award of the VC to Squadron Leader Scarf of 62 Squadron. Here is a very interesting web page on Arthur ..."Gutsy.
I began reading this book
The Duel: The Eighty-Day Struggle Between Churchill and Hitler by John Lukacs yesterday, and there is an interesting point that he brings up about Neville Chamberlain and the infamous Munich appeasement of 1938. He says that Britain was not prepared to fight in 1938 - and the buildup of its forces between October 1938 and September 1939 was barely sufficient to stave off the Germans in 1940 when war did come - and the Brits' political will was not sufficient for support for war at that time. Further, Churchill was hardly popular at the time, having narrowly avoided censure by his constituents near the same time as Munich.Chamberlain made a poor calculation when viewed through the lens of history, but that information paints a different picture than the bumbler that historians paint him as in hindsight, and I thought it was an interesting point for the group to consider.
Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think I read in one of my recent books on the Atlantic Campaign that Goering wasn't too keen to share the Conder and its capabilities with the Kriegsmarine."True. The Cond..."
Agreed. While relations between the RN and RAF left much to be desired I get the impression that the in-fighting between Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe was in a different league altogether - and may have spared many Allied lives.
Derek wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think I read in one of my recent books on the Atlantic Campaign that Goering wasn't too keen to share the Conder and its capabilities with the Kriegsmarine."..."Derek: Poolman made the same point. The cooperative operations between the U-boat force and the Condor squadrons were very effective, but couldn't be conducted on a regular basis due to command and control and communications problems. This same shortcoming between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe was presented in John Sweetman's Tirpitz: Hunting the Beast. Finally, in January of '41, Hitler intervened in the Condor struggle on behalf of Dönitz. He directed the transfer of KG40 to the navy's operational control -- but although designated a gruppe, it has only 12 Fw 200s, three more than staffel strength. They had a tough time keeping six aircraft operational.
Derek wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think I read in one of my recent books on the Atlantic Campaign that Goering wasn't too keen to share the Conder and its capabilities with the Kriegsmarine."..."Derek: From Kenneth Poolman's Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic.
The Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine were far less willing to work together in the war at sea that the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author of my book quoted a few early impressions of RAAF Catalina's:"They were by no means fast: it was joked that to make a rendezvous the Cat's navigator needed a calendar rather than a sto..."
Nothing ever changes in the world of ASW!
I had a chuckle when I read about this incident involving some Australian pilots in my book:"On 26 January, damaging air raids struck Laha and Namlea. The attackers were Zeros, and as they approached, Dunne - now back at Namlea - and fellow pilot Bob Law-Smith broke off a game of chess. When one of Dunne's crewmen called, 'Are you going to take off?', he replied, 'Yes, into the scrub.' The exuberant Japanese fighters flew over virtually unopposed. One pilot had the temerity to lower his wheels and briefly touch down on the runway to show his contempt."
Here is another great account covering the RAAF attacking some Japanese barges during the campaign for Sumatra in 1942:"Piloting one Blenheim was Australian Sergeant Bill Cosgrove. Return fire hit his RAF gunner, Sergeant Hayes Harding. Cosgrove wrote home:
He's a damned good boy. I said as we were pulling out from the dive 'Are you hit, Ticker?' 'No', he shouted 'Go down on the bastards again!' And he's only a little fellow too. The second time we went down there was blood all over the turret and this time we got hit in the engine, elevator and hydraulic pipe.
Harding later praised Cosgrove's skill as a pilot - 'a bit wild but a good formation flyer' - in all respects but landing. So when Cosgrove told him they were belly-landing, Hayes said he would bale out rather than risk it. 'Keep quiet you little bugger and cross your fingers' came the reply. Hayes described the subsequent landing as Cosgrove's best ever. In his letter home, Cosgrove acknowledged that in the Netherlands East Indies, 'in four flights, I had four crashes,' but explained, accurately, that the cause was 'being shot up by the Japs each time'."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is another great account covering the RAAF attacking some Japanese barges during the campaign for Sumatra in 1942:"Piloting one Blenheim was Australian Sergeant Bill Cosgrove. Return fire hi..."
Cheeky!
Here is another interesting account concerning RAAF Hudsons:"On 2 March, No. 1 Squadron was ordered home. Demonstrating characteristic ingenuity and initiative, the crews used four-gallon tins carried in the aircraft to allow in-flight refuelling. A side window was knocked out and petrol poured through a length of rubber tubing into a wing tank."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here is another interesting account concerning RAAF Hudsons:"On 2 March, No. 1 Squadron was ordered home. Demonstrating characteristic ingenuity and initiative, the crews used four-gallon tins ca..."
Makes one wonder...how did they remove the fuel tank cap? Or did they just leave the tank open?
I'm thinking they must have left the tank open and the hoses taped or secured into the tank by some means?
From:
Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic by Kenneth Poolman.The Focke-Wulf 200 Condor was a successful military aircraft, but because it was designed to civilian standards, it had difficulties with the heavy loading and flight stress of military operations. One of the biggest problems was structural failures: the wings fell off. Often upon take-off or landing, one of the wings would fall off at the root. Sometimes it even happened in mid-flight.
Now that sounds like a fun aircraft - NOT!!!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm thinking they must have left the tank open and the hoses taped or secured into the tank by some means?"Did they have duct tape back then :)
Good question Happy :)
happy wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm thinking they must have left the tank open and the hoses taped or secured into the tank by some means?"Did they have duct tape back then :)"
Duct tape and superglue.
I just finished The Kamikaze Hunters: Fighting for the Pacific, 1945. I really enjoyed this book, as it followed the experiences of the "forgotten" Fleet Air Arm's Pacific air crews from training until VJ day. The first half of this book covers the formation of the Fleet Air Arm through the training of British aircrews, most doing their flight training in America or Canada. I've read many books with chapters on training that dragged, but Iredale does a really great job and I thoroughly enjoyed every chapter. However, I was reading a beat up old edition with "uncorrected, limited edition proof" printed on the bottom, so all the map and photo pages were blank, the text full of grammatical errors, words being left out, etc. I wondered why even print it before correcting so many basic grammar errors in the text? Some things I took away from this book:British carriers were horrific places to live in the Pacific, especially compared to the "luxury" of American ships. They were overcrowded, inadequately supplied, bad food, poor ventilation, and very limited fresh water. However, the armored flight decks that contributed so much to the discomfort in the tropics proved their worth as they held strong against numerous kamikaze attacks. Some British carrier decks were ready to launch and recover aircraft within a day of taking a kamikaze blow that would have taken a wooden deck out of action.
Although they performed decent enough in the air, the Supermarine Seafire's narrow and fragile undercarriage made it a liability when it came to deck landings. Dozens were damaged beyond repair coming in for seemingly routine landings, with quite a few airmen losing their lives.
James wrote: "I just finished The Kamikaze Hunters: Fighting for the Pacific, 1945. I really enjoyed this book, as it followed the experiences of the "forgotten" Fleet Air Arm's Pacific air crews..."Thanks, James. Some years ago I read John Winton's The Forgotten Fleet about the Royal Navy's carrier groups in the Pacific. At the start, the U.S. Navy was less than enthusiastic about the RN carrier forces joining up. Our naval gurus didn't consider the RN's fleet train to be adequate to sustain a forward-deployed fleet and they feared political pressure would require the USN to supply the British.
From Kenneth Poolman's
Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic.The FW-200s used a standard attack tactic against merchant ships. Since almost all merchants equipped with defensive guns would have them installed on the fantail, the Condors would maneuver for a head-on attack from the bow, along the ship's centerline, and just above mast-head height. This gave the largest window for accurate bombing and minimized the time for any defensive guns to fire. The British, having not been born yesterday, figured this out quickly. They installed hundreds of WW I vintage Lewis guns and a few 20mm Oerlikons forward on merchants. The Condors encountered a nasty surprise and a number were shot down. Another interesting bit of info: FW-200s, having preyed on the main shipping approaches north and west of Ireland, were in a fix if damaged. The long way around to the south and then east back to France was just that -- a long way. Often they would, if damaged, make a beeline across Ireland. The Irish did nothing about these incursions, except lodge routine diplomatic protests.
Just finished chapters 9 through to 13 and that also ends the first part of the book. from my very limited reading of the Dresden bombing I was a little under the impression that it was not really a target worthy of consideration considering that it had little or no industry. The author makes it clear that its industry, much like the rest of the 3rd Reich, was geared to the war effort. Victor Klemperer is quoted occasionally. I was given the 3rd part of his diaries a while back without knowing much about them. I will have to get the other parts as they seem very interesting.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
Dam Busters: The True Story of the Legendary Raid on the Ruhr (other topics)Dam Busters: The True Story of the Legendary Raid on the Ruhr (other topics)
The Forgotten Few: The Polish Air Force in the Second World War (other topics)
Firestorm Hamburg: The Facts Surrounding the Destruction of a German City, 1943 (other topics)
The Conquering Tide: War in the Pacific Islands, 1942–1944 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Adam Zamoyski (other topics)Keith Lowe (other topics)
Mark D. Johnston (other topics)
Frederick Taylor (other topics)
Mark D. Johnston (other topics)
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https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...
It has some quality reading on the early air war there in SE Asia/ ..."
I second this recommendation for Caidin's "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors"--read it back in high school and really enjoyed it. Even though Caidin has his critics, I've always enjoyed his works.