ARCHIVE - APRIL 2016 - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King

[Samanta]

Response to Teri

(view spoiler)[Hm...I really can't remember, but then again, with no TV in my apartment, I am a bit late on finding things out. The only things that come to my mind are not a recent history. There was "Croatian spring" in the 70's....it was a big deal, but unfortunately unsuccessful in the end. The truth is, I don't think we did anything really bold since the Operation Storm. After that, we just kind of wrapped ourselves in this feeling of false security. (hide spoiler)]

[Avion]

Teri wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: " Chapter 9 discussion questions'

Response to Elizabeth - Chapter 9

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[
[It is beyond sad that the fate of this young man's life being spared was a win in anyone's eyes. It is sad that even today, there are people backed into a corner when the law is not on their side due to the "massaging" of the truth and working the details of the law in their own favor. Do you agree that this was the only choice for the defendant? Sadly yes I think Thomas' didn't have much of a chance and his running was only seen as further proof of his "guilt." I don't think he had much of a chance with about a thousand armed men literally hunting him down, which just makes the case even sadder. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Teri

[spoilers removed]"

So now I need to read up on Croatian Spring. Always something new to learn.

[Teri]

Elizabeth wrote: "Teri wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: " Chapter 9 discussion questions'"

Response to Elizabeth - Chapter 9

(view spoiler)[Beyond sad. I am guessing he had no idea what he was up against. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 19 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. The author makes a point to describe Norma Padgett differently in the two trials of the Groveland Boys. In the first trial, she wears a fancy dress and proudly marches up to the stand to point out her alleged rapists. But by the second trial, she’s described as gaunt, worn down and tired, and doesn’t seem to have much interest in the case anymore. What are your thoughts on Norma and the differences in her testimony between the two trials?

2. What do you think of the plea deal that was offered? Do you think that Irvin did the right thing? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Chapter 19 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. The author makes a point to describe Norma Padgett differently in the two trials of the Groveland Boys. In the first trial, she wears a fancy dress and proudly marches up to the stand to point out her alleged rapists. But by the second trial, she’s described as gaunt, worn down and tired, and doesn’t seem to have much interest in the case anymore. What are your thoughts on Norma and the differences in her testimony between the two trials?

Norma experienced a marries life with children to a wrong man. That was what happened to her. Maybe it's karma, I don't know. But still, if I remember correctly, she didn't back down from her story. I really wonder why. I wish I could ask her.

2. What do you think of the plea deal that was offered? Do you think that Irvin did the right thing?

The judge and Jesse Hunter thought they are doing Irvin a favor, because they knew he wouldn't get out of the court a free man (although I know Jesse Hunter considered him innocent, and I'm pretty sure the judge did too). It's actually downright insulting wen you look at it, and who was to tell, that they would really do it in the end. After all I've read, I wouldn't trust them one bit. As for Irvin, it's a double-edged sword. You either accept, give them what they want, become a scapegoat for other people's crimes, risk getting lynched and (most importantly) betray your integrity and beliefs, OR you don't accept because you know you're not guilty and and up dead. I don't know what I would have done, but I admire Irvin for being adamant. That took a lot of courage. (hide spoiler)]

[Tomi]

Response to 19 questions:
(view spoiler)[
1. Norma is like a lot of people I grew up with. Life is hard and wears you down. I imagine (and hope) that guilt played a role in the changes we saw. All in all, I'd say karma got her.
2. Irwin didn't have much of a choice. Either way he ran a high chance of dying. (hide spoiler)]

[Avion]

Week 3 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Willis McCall held a tight reign on Lake County. In the beginning of the book, he prevents the men of Bay Lake from storming the jail and possibly preventing lynching the Groveland suspects. But clearly, he was capable of violence against those same men. What do you think Sheriff McCall's motivations were throughout the story, and why do you think he was able to remain sheriff for twenty-eight years? I have a feeling that McCall's motivations for maintaining the position of sheriff for so long is due to his proclivity for being able to be the protector of the few and a terrorist to those he simply did not like (i.e anyone who comes into town to stir up trouble like the lawyers from the NAACP, and so forth). Plus he seemed to have an interesting relationship with the KKK as he refused to denounce their mob violence. He was good at keeping people silent and oppressed and let the oppressors get away with the violence, and even took part in it himself because he had the power. He kept the establishment in power that's why he was able to hold the position for so long.

2. The book focuses tightly on this one case, but occasionally the lens widens. There’s the portrait of black Harlem centered on 409 Edgecombe Ave (25-29). There’s the way Florida’s economy depended on citrus labor (76-81) and the way the state’s demography and economy were changing. There’s the local politics of the bolita lottery game (78-79, 114). Which of these asides – or others – helped you understand the Groveland case better? Which did you find useful for thinking about mid-20th Century American history? (hide spoiler)] The fact that Florida's economy relied so heavily on black labor is so frighteningly reminiscent of slavery, how they would get them to work for very, very little wages and long hours and they relied heavily on their work typically hiring only them with the exception being poor whites because that was the only work that blacks were apparently seen as being 'good for.' I found it pretty disturbing. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Chapter 19 Discussion Questions."

Response to Samanta - Chapter 19

(view spoiler)[Yes, I admire Irvin too for having the strength to face the situation and continue to declare his innocence. I have to admit that I'm a true crime junkie and often hear about innocent people who still get convicted. He was very courageous. He knew what was in store for him. I can only imagine how he felt, knowing what the possible outcome was for him. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Tomi wrote: "Response to 19 questions:."

Response to Tomi - Chapter 19

(view spoiler)[It does sound like karma got Norma. I also keep in mind that she had to live her entire life with this on her conscience. She could have come clean with everything, but she choose not to. Her choice, her conviction, her demon to live with. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Elizabeth wrote: " Week 3 Discussion Questions ."

Response to Elizabeth - Week 3 Discussion

(view spoiler)[You bring up some excellent points. One thing we've not really talked about is the people that McCall did protect. It's easy for us to point out the despicable things he did to those he did not like and we wonder why anyone liked him or would re-elect him. Were people scared of him? Likely. Many apparently loved him, though and we now find that hard to believe. But if we put ourselves in their shoes at that time, a lot of people felt he was a "good ole boy" who was out to protect them and he would do anything to help them. They, unfortunately, could over look how he treated other people.

It's sad to realize that even though slavery was officially over, it really wasn't. It was just re-branded. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 20 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. What did you think about Burtoft's testimony? Do you think he was truthful? What did he stand to gain or lose? Anything?

2. What did you think of the way Hunter reacted during the questioning of the LDF defense "expert"? What was his motivation for heckling during the questioning? (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Chapter 18 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. How might the publicity of Moore's house bombing affect Florida's economy?

I think once people became aware of the lawlessness that was occurring in Lake County, and the hateful way in which blacks were being treated in Florida, it would make them rethink going to Florida for vacation, or consuming Florida products.

2. On page 279, minister Donald Harrington offered a prayer stating "...Our whole country stands blackened and discredited in the eyes of the world because Florida's failure to protect the lives and liberties of all of her citizens...." How did this case affect the country and civil rights as a whole? Do you think this trial had far reaching affects, outside of the south?

This case certainly had far reaching affects, as the nation had its eyes trained on Lake County and the miscarriage of justice and violation of basic Civil Rights in this case. This case, coupled with others like it from all over the South, really put the spotlight on just how badly blacks were being treated, and made the nation as a whole do some soul-searching, to ask itself, ‘is this the kind of country we want to be? Did we fight for our own freedom and perceived abuses from England, only to then turn around and level abuse on an entire group of people?’ This national ‘self-analysis’ led to the realization that massive changes were needed if we were to be the great nation we boast of being in our Constitution. (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Chapter 19 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. The author makes a point to describe Norma Padgett differently in the two trials of the Groveland Boys. In the first trial, she wears a fancy dress and proudly marches up to the stand to point out her alleged rapists. But by the second trial, she’s described as gaunt, worn down and tired, and doesn’t seem to have much interest in the case anymore. What are your thoughts on Norma and the differences in her testimony between the two trials?

In some ways, I feel very sorry for Norma. The text is clear that she was definitely not a woman of means, with no real hope of ever being more than a simple farm girl in Florida. It would be easy to judge Norma harshly for falsely accusing these men and prescribing to them almost certain death, but that would discredit the fact that, during this time and in this area, she as a woman had almost as few rights as those of her alleged attackers. I’m sure she was coerced into giving the false rape report by some man in position of authority (most likely her husband), and she had little recourse once commanded to do so. What would be her other options? What would happen to her if she had defied the instructions of the powerful men directing her every word and deed throughout this process. I believe the difference between the two Norma’s can be explained by the difference in age and experience. The proud, almost boastful Norma of the first trial is a testament to her youth and ignorance. At that time she is just an ignorant farm girl enjoying her 15 minutes of fame. By the second trial, she has realized that with the fame comes the scrutiny, the rumors and the shunning that I’m sure she must have experienced in such a small town. I’m sure she was probably already disillusioned by life as a poor wife to mean, alcoholic farmer by this time as well. Yet she carried on with her story because, as a woman with no real power or options during that time, what other choice did she believe she truly had?

2. What do you think of the plea deal that was offered? Do you think that Irvin did the right thing?

I think the plea deal was a way for the State to try and make the bad publicity quietly go away. I have so much respect for Walter Irvin for having the courage to turn the deal down and stand up for the truth and what’s right. Had he, and others like him in other cases during the time, taken the plea deal, the America we all enjoy would look a whole lot different than it does. We all owe a huge debt of gratitude to Irvin for turning down the plea deal and letting this case play out the way it did. (hide spoiler)]

[Jim]

Chapters 18 - 22
(view spoiler)[


It is hard to say you enjoyed something that brought such pain to communities, families and individuals. However, I did enjoy The Devil in the Grove. It was a part of our history that I had never heard about in school or from the books I have read. It is a sad part of our history. I also learned more about Thurgood Marshall. I think I still need to learn more about him.

I urge you to read the About the Author and About the Book that comes after the Notes and Index. I found those sections very meaningful.

Thanks to everyone who shared comments and questions about the book. They were helpful in learning how this story tied into the life of the readers. I know it brought back a lot of things in my life.

Like a lot of white children, my parents "protected" me from the "bad things in life." Prejudice and Racism didn't come into my life until college and and more so when I started teaching in an integrated school in Michigan. When the riots started in Detroit in 1967 it opened my eyes to the Racism and prejudice.

While I'd like to think this book tells of one event that was not replayed in other states and police stations. But we know about Emmett Till, Brownsville, Selma, Birmingham and the ongoing problems leading to the the "Black Lives Count" movement.

And we are left with one more question,

Did Walter Irvin die of natural causes?

(hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Chapter 20 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. What did you think about Burtoft's testimony? Do you think he was truthful? What did he stand to gain or lose? Anything?

I think Burtoft’s testimony was truthful. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose by telling the truth. As we find out with the likes of Mabel Norris Reece, whites who were willing to come forth and stand on the side of truth and justice faced many harsh consequences from other whites, so I don’t think he would have testified if what he had to say wasn’t truthful.

2. What did you think of the way Hunter reacted during the questioning of the LDF defense "expert"? What was his motivation for heckling during the questioning?

I was disgusted by Hunters shenanigans in this trial. It was obvious that he was baiting the jury into having a negative reaction to the witness by playing on their own probable insecurities in their ability to understand the expert evidence. He was trying to instill an “us vs. them” mentality into the jurors by making fun of the witness and pinning him as a snobby ‘outsider’. This whole trial was disgusting really. The caricaturized mental image of a judge whittling away, while the prosecutor polks fun at the witness and his ‘fancy book-learnin’, makes me so angry as a Southerner, until I remind myself that wait, this isn’t a caricature, this really happened. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Chapter 20 discussion questions

(view spoiler)[1. What did you think about Burtoft's testimony? Do you think he was truthful? What did he stand to gain or lose? Anything?

I admired Burtoft very much for being steadfast, remaining calm and sticking to his story (even talking back to Jesse Hunter) It was a very dangerous thing to do, because his whole family could be proclaimed "nigger lovers" and that title brings consequences...and not of the pretty kind.

2. What did you think of the way Hunter reacted during the questioning of the LDF defense "expert"? What was his motivation for heckling during the questioning?

He, as an educated person, knew what the LDF defense expert talked about and knew it was dangerous. He also knew that the jury is consisted of local farmers, uneducated in science. In a way he ridiculed the expert and the defense by letting him continue speaking in that serious tone, because he knew the jury would not understand a thing. And then he went and explained it in "common language" and basically destroyed the whole thing. A smart guy! (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Jim wrote: And we are left with one more question,

Did Walter Irvin die of natural causes?
..."

(view spoiler)[That is a big question mark for me as well. I feel that it is just too much of a coincidence that he died within hours of returning to Groveland. (hide spoiler)]

I know exactly what you mean about finding it hard to say you enjoyed a book about such terrible circumstances. This book made me cry, it made me angry, but above all, it made me think long and hard about what it really means to have respect for the rights of all people, and to be committed, as a nation, to the protection of those rights and to true equality within the law.

[Jovita]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Chapter 20 discussion questions..."

(view spoiler)[Yes, Hunter was a smart guy indeed. Its sad that he used that intellect to carry out this gross injustice. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 18 Discussion Questions ."

Response to Jovita - Chapter 18

(view spoiler)[Yes, this case had to have had a major hit on the economy. It's a wonder that they were so open with the brutal beatings/lynchings, etc. that went on there at that time.

Do you think they considered how the nation was viewing this whole case? The self-analysis you mentioned, did help us move forward as a nation, but we still have a ways to go. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 19 Discussion Questions"

Response Jovita - Chapter 19

(view spoiler)[I have really floundered on Norma, in that, I do think she brought all of this on herself. I do believe that Willie, and perhaps her dad, goaded her into accusing these boys of raping her. I think she was a somewhat willing participant. I go back and forth on whether she was truly threatened by Willie to do it, or if she was willing from the start. This is strictly my opinion and not based on anything in particular. I don't think it was her idea from the start. Some people are just evil. I just wonder if she has any regrets, all these years later. Thoughts anyone? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jim wrote: "Chapters 18 - 22"

For everyone - Jim puts in this post: "I urge you to read the About the Author and About the Book that comes after the Notes and Index. I found those sections very meaningful." I'm going to echo that as well. I finished those sections last night and found a lot of good information that may answer some questions you have after finishing the book. It's great background on why King felt compelled to write this book

(view spoiler)[Walter Irvin. I do NOT believe that he died of natural causes. I do wonder if there was a thorough unbiased autopsy or not. I also wonder if there was some advanced notice of him coming to town or if he tried to quietly sneak in. I think it is just way "too coincidental".

What were your conclusions? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 20 Discussion Questions"

Response to Jovita - Chapter 20

(view spoiler)[It really seemed like you were reading fiction, when King described this last trial. It's so hard to take seriously any judge who is kickin' back and "whittlin'". That just wouldn't happen today (I think, I hope?). It's a shame. I just wonder if any of Hunter's or the judge's behavior came out / was mentioned in any of the paperwork for the appeals. If so, why were the appeals denied? Technicalities, I am sure, don't you think? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Chapter 20 discussion questions.."

Response to Samanta - Chapter 20

(view spoiler)[All you have to do in a court of law here in the US (then and now) is create doubt. Whether it is the defense creating doubt in the accusations toward their client, or the prosecutor causing doubt in what the defense witness is saying (or vice versa). It's boggling that Hunter was allowed to heckle as a lawyer, but then again, look at what they had for a judge. (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Teri wrote: "Response to Jovita - Chapter 20"

(view spoiler)[I have no idea how this case did not when a second appeal to SCOTUS. I don't know if they just didn't want to touch it anymore because of all the controversy, or what. I would think (and hope) that a conviction like this, with all the foolery of the trial, would be easily overturned in today's courts. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "I know exactly what you mean about finding it hard to say you enjoyed a book about such terrible circumstances. This book made me cry, it made me angry, but above all, it made me think long and hard about what it really means to have respect for the rights of all people, and to be committed, as a nation, to the protection of those rights and to true equality within the law. "

I'm glad you enjoyed the book. It's certainly important to read about these black spots in history so that we can come away as better people and make the world a better place to live in.

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Chapter 20 discussion questions..."

[spoilers removed]"

Agreed!

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Teri wrote: "Response to Jovita - Chapter 20"

[spoilers removed]"

Indeed!

[Jovita]

Teri wrote: "Response Jovita - Chapter 19"

(view spoiler)[I wondered a lot about Norma and whether she had a change of heart of the years also, so much so that I tried googling around a bit to see if she's ever done any interviews or given statements in later years, but could find nothing. I'm sure that with the changing political climate, she probably just wants to be left alone. I think would really gave me pause forming judgments about her was the fact that she signed de Forest's petition. I wonder if she even thought about Irvin at all when she did so? (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Teri wrote: "Response to Jovita - Chapter 18"

(view spoiler)[It doesn't seem like they cared much at all about the fact that the nation was watching, since McCall was so bold as to shoot the suspects in cold blood, even while knowing the scrutiny this case would garner. Same thing with the behavior of the judge and the prosecutor, they had no concerns about violating the law in the court proceedings. In a way, though, that blatant disregard for the image of the South they were creating I'm sure created even more fervor from those protesting the proceedings in other parts of the country and even more greatly highlighted the need for change. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Teri wrote: "Response Jovita - Chapter 19"

Response to Jovita - Norma

(view spoiler)[Did you read the "About the Book" section at the end of the book? I think it was this section talked about King going back to try and interview Norma. He said her only comment really was "let sleeping dogs lie". I think in her heart she knows and likely regrets what she did. Her only way to deal with it is to ignore it. At least, that's what I want to think. (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Teri wrote: "Response to Jovita - Norma"

No, I haven't read that section yet, I'll have to take a look tonight, it may change my opinion.

[Papaphilly]

Chapter 19 Discussion Questions

[1. The author makes a point to describe Norma Padgett differently in the two trials of the Groveland Boys. In the first trial, she wears a fancy dress and proudly marches up to the stand to point out her alleged rapists. But by the second trial, she’s described as gaunt, worn down and tired, and doesn’t seem to have much interest in the case anymore. What are your thoughts on Norma and the differences in her testimony between the two trials?

(view spoiler)[It must be remembered that Norma was not very old at the time of the charges and was probably thrilled to be the center of attention. It was obvious she did not have much, had a hard life and was a child bride. For a moment in time, she was the pretty princess and the center of attention, but time passes. Regardless of the case, time was not kind to her and she was dirt poor and a hard life wears you down. it still has to be remembered that she was only in her twenties at this later date and she is described as haggard. She is still married to the bum and she is no longer a child. Regardless of the truth, Norma probably wants nothing to do with this anymore because it is neither fun nor she cannot retract the accusation. I am sure she knows what many in the community thinks of her family. She just wants it to be over and done. (hide spoiler)]

2. What do you think of the plea deal that was offered? Do you think that Irvin did the right thing?

(view spoiler)[The plea deal was nothing more than trying to bring an end to the case that would not go away. Walter Irving showed true bravery with his life on the line. It also shows how he had enough and would not allow himself to supply the proverbial rope to his own hanging. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Chapter 19 discussion question~ Norma

(view spoiler)[

I think that the difference between Norma in the first trial and the second trial is that she is mother. Maybe she is having a guilty conscious because she empathize with mothers of these boys? what if someone had done the same thing to her children. Another possibility is just a plain guilty conscience, I don't think she realized the extent of all that was going to happen when she accused these boys of rape. And now everything is out of control, not only that they are on the second trial and she has to relieve everything, when she probably wants to forget about it (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Papaphilly wrote: "Chapter 19 Discussion Questions"

Response to Paraphilly - Chapter 19

(view spoiler)[Great reminder as to Norma's age. The way King describes her during the 2nd trial, you'd think she'd be middle age and completely ragged. She had a lot to handle as a young woman. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "Chapter 19 discussion question~ Norma"

Response to Rachel - Chapter 19

(view spoiler)[It seems that to the day she die(s/d) she will want to forget about it - did you read the notes at the end of the book? It sheds a little light on her / her thoughts as she aged. I wonder if she had girls or boys or both? Makes you wonder what all she told them growing up and how she handled them as teenagers/young adults. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 21 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Was it right to argue the case point of Norma not being able to identify her victims versus discrediting her? Did this seem like the defense was saying that she was raped?

2. Richard Carter, reporter for the Compass wrote "Could this be another of the 'rape' cases which Southern authorities have been known to whomp up as an afterthought in order to keep the Negro in his 'place'?" What are your thoughts on this quote? Do you think that McCall, Yates, Futch were trying to send a message? (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Chapter 21 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Was it right to argue the case point of Norma not being able to identify her victims versus discrediting her? Did this seem like the defense was saying that she was raped?

I don’t think it was about admitting that Norma was raped as much as it was that they knew the attitudes and ideas they were up against. They knew they would never have a chance of getting a jury of Southern white men to take a black man’s word over that of a white woman’s, no matter how clear the evidence. Reading this book gave me a deeper respect for Marshall and the Civil Rights attorneys of the day for successfully trying cases where the cards were so obviously stacked against them, and where even the very law would be twisted to bend to the will of the segregationist South.

2. Richard Carter, reporter for the Compass wrote "Could this be another of the 'rape' cases which Southern authorities have been known to whomp up as an afterthought in order to keep the Negro in his 'place'?" What are your thoughts on this quote? Do you think that McCall, Yates, Futch were trying to send a message?

The book actually addresses this issue in earlier chapters when discussing the first trial. The author makes a strong argument for the fact that the inclusion of Shepherd was a means of putting him and his family “in their place”, since they were better off financially than even some of the whites in the area. The author mentions the attitude whites had towards black veterans who wore their uniforms about town, and who had become accustomed to the better treatment while serving in Europe. While I do feel that this may have been a motivating factor in the first trial, I think during the second trial, they were out to prove something else.
After the first trial, Lake County, its law enforcement and its courts had all received a lot of criticism from the national press. The Supreme Court had ruled for a new trial based on the injustices of the first. I believe McCall, Yates and Futch felt that their entire way of life was on trial. Regardless of how wrong their line of thinking was, these men were firmly committed to their racist ideology. I think they were determined not to let ‘outsiders’ dictate to them how they should behave and how they should run their county. They wanted to show the world that they were committed to the white supremacist way, and that not even the Supreme Court would force them into changing. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 21 Discussion Questions

1. Was it right to argue the case point of Norma not being able to identify her victims versus discrediting her? Did this seem like the defense was saying that she ..."

(view spoiler)[I just love people who think they are above law. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Chapter 20 discussion question

(view spoiler)[

What did you think of the way Hunter reacted during the questioning of the LDF defense "expert"? What was his motivation for heckling during the questioning?

I was disgusted by Hunter presentation of the case in general. I think he knew that he a weak case. And the expert witness just made that even more. so I think he was pandering to the racist in the jury and in the audience. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

I wonder if she had girls or boys or both? Makes you wonder what all she told them growing up and how she handled them as teenagers/young adults.

(view spoiler)[

I just finished the book, I cant help but see Norma as cold and vindictive woman. she had plenty chances to make things right but still she kept going the same song and dance. Doesn't matter if 4 mens lives were ruined because of her false accusations. I just help but have a feeling of deep disgust for this case in general and how the justice system treated African Americans. I think in the book, it said she had a son, but then she had a second baby, but never said the sex. I think that she told her children the same song and dance, No doubt probably blaming the justice system was being unfair/lying about her etc... (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Jovita and Samanta - Chapter 21

(view spoiler)[McCall and his cronies certainly believed they were above the law and Judge Futch considered himself the law. They definitely sent a message and as long as the trials were held anywhere in that area of Florida, the long arm of McCall and Futch's law would rule. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Rachel - Chapter 20 Questions

(view spoiler)[Yes, Hunter had a weak case, but I don't think that he had anything to worry about. I think he knew that the jury would rule in his favor no matter what. So do you think it was necessary for him to go through all that heckling episode?

Oh yes, the book did mention she had a boy. I'll forever wonder if her future generations ever believed her or realized the true story. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

So do you think it was necessary for him to go through all that heckling episode?
(view spoiler)[

True, I think he knew that he was going to win the case. Just thinking about his ring he wore on his finger- and members of the jury had the same ring? mentions of freemasonry? Along with just being a racist. this was another reason probably why the jury came back with a guilty plea. But honestly I think that Hunter was just trying to be an arse (Excuse the language). (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Rachel - Jesse Hunter

(view spoiler)[Yes, an arse he was without even trying! :-) (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 22 and Epilogue Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. The case of the Groveland Boys was significant because it led to the NAACP’s Legal Defense Fund program to invalidate the use of the death penalty for rape. Discuss the ways you think the legal system has changed since then, and how a rape case like this would be both prosecuted and defended today.

2. In the end, Governor LeRoy Collins commuted Walter Irvin’s sentence. He’d spend nearly twenty years in jail after being beaten and shot three times. Four people were killed during this case, yet Marshall still saw it as a victory. Why do you think that was so? (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Chapter 22 and Epilogue question 2

(view spoiler)[

In the end, Governor LeRoy Collins commuted Walter Irvin’s sentence. He’d spend nearly twenty years in jail after being beaten and shot three times. Four people were killed during this case, yet Marshall still saw it as a victory. Why do you think that was so?

Even though he couldn't really save all four defendants. He saw it as victory because people like Hunter and Reese were beginning to see the error of their ways and see the injustice of what was going on and start to fight against it. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "Chapter 22 and Epilogue question 2"

Response to Rachel - Chapter 22 and Epilogue question 2

(view spoiler)[That was definitely a win. Just being able to start to change the minds of others to a more tolerant view is always a win. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Thank you everyone for joining in this month's read. I hope you will join us for the May selection that will continue in the Civil Rights topic with Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention.

by Manning Marable

[Brett]

I'm way behind, but I finished the book today. I found it frustrating reading the book. But it must have been even more frustrating for the Groveland Boys and Marshall and his team. I did enjoy the book though, and its history.