ARCHIVE - APRIL 2016 - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Teri wrote: "Chapter 15 Discussion Questions

1. What does the book’s portrait of Willis McCall tell us about this period?"

Response to Samanta - McCall

(view spoiler)[Well said. I suppose he would be labeled a vigilante depending on whose eyes you were looking through. I do agree that he was just a monster and simply decided that ending the lives of Irvin and Shepherd would solve a lot of problems. I think he even felt that he'd be viewed as even more of a hero, if the story was spun right. In my mind, a vigilante will hunt down a criminal. He didn't have to hunt those boys, he had them in the palm of his hands and he was just "fixing his problem". (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to chapter 16 questions."

Response to Samanta - Chapter 16

(view spoiler)[I like your reference to it being like a telenovela, but you are right and as they say, truth is stranger than fiction. I just don't think that would happen these days, but then again, you watch some true crime shows and realize that people will still do some unbelievable stuff, especially if it means they could be caught themselves and lose their own freedom.

This is all very telling of the mindset at that time. What seems unbelievable to us today, was completely sane in that area at that time. It's hard for us to wrap our heads around such bigotry. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Marc wrote: "Chapter 15-17"

Response to Marc - Chapters 15-17

(view spoiler)[I had not really thought about the Governor giving orders. That is completely possible. It is obvious that McCall had given the scenario some forethought, but not enough to have some "backup plan". Obviously, he was just wanting to get rid of the "situation" (aka, Shepherd and Irvin) and it's easy to speculate on whether there were others involved (did Yates really not know anything?) or how far in advance he planned it out.

Yes, heartbreaking to read! (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Papaphilly - you have to use spoiler html - I am sorry - please circle back and do that.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Papaphilly's review of the entire book - spoiler html please- if you want to put this stuff up then post it on the other spoiler thread.

(view spoiler)[I am joining the discussion late. I only want to say that this is an excellent read and a trip through a very dark part of our history. I am finishing it up as I write, what impressed me most is how Gilbert King makes each man human and not a deity. They have their faults, even heroes. King writes a rich tapestry of complications instead of everything being black and white (sorry pun unintended). I love how it is noted that some did not like each other and some actively tried to undermine the other, but somehow the work progressed.

I am also impressed that King placed J.Edgar Hoover is a positive light. You do not see that much nowadays. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

J.Edgar Hoover

(view spoiler)[

Bently, I was surprised as well. I have not read anything that has really put him in a positive light. But in this he seemed conciliatory with Marshall. And Marshall recognized he could work with Hoover- if he did certain things. though the FBI was far from perfect in this , and to degree help hinder the case in some ways. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Rachel I just reposted Papaphilly's comments using the spoiler html - (view spoiler)[ but I do agree that Hoover sometimes had his days - although few of them. (hide spoiler)]

[Avion]

Week 1 questions

(view spoiler)[
1. How much do you know about Thurgood Marshall prior to reading this book? The Groveland Four case? Truthfully, I knew very little about Thurgood Marshall and next to nothing about the Groveland Four case. So far I'm really liking the book. It's getting me both riled up and angry so I think it's very well written and explanatory.

2. What is the difference between prejudice and hate? Hate and fear? How are they depicted in the book? Prejudice I believe stems from preconceived notions one my have about a particular group of people and hatred of that group grows out of prejudice and is the physical and typically violent acting out of prejudice against an oppressed group of people. Fear of a group typically stems from prejudice as well and again hatred is the acting out of fear -- its when fear becomes so great that it becomes explosive and violent, that's hatred. Prejudice breeds fear which breads hatred.

3. How do you feel about the changing of focus between the chapters? Do you feel that you're getting to know Marshall as his career progresses? I'm getting to know the atmosphere of the South during the progression of Marshall's career more than of Marshall's actual career. Although I do like how it depicts what Marshall is up to during particularly heated acts of violence and how Marshall responds to them, and what he's up to at the NAACP at he time. But I think I assumed it would be more biographically about Thurgood himself, but I think I like the background of the forever brewing violence a little better. Kind of makes you feel as though you're living through the history of the time. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 1 Mink Slide

(view spoiler)[ What are your feelings on the case, what occurred afterwards, Duck Swamp, the Mink Slide incident, the Columbia Riot of 1946 and the drive to Nashville?
page 8
"But the overall-clad spectators were equally intrigued by Marshall and his fellow NAACP lawyers: by the strange sight of "those niggers up there wearing coats and talking back to the judge just like they were white men.""

The overall, feeling of the Mink Slide case and the aftermath was terrifying for me to read because of the way King so well describes the atmosphere it felt like I had been transported back to the time of the case it almost felt like I could see it happening and feel Marshall's apprehension at seeing an all white jury, and then seeing the casket marked KKK. The book is very well written that it transports you to a time where you really don't want to be transported back to, almost. But at the same time it's incredibly intriguing. Also I could feel the absolute fear and terror of Marshall almost being lynched. That for me was probably one of the most horrific parts of the book, so far, and it's only the beginning. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Elizabeth wrote: "Week 1 questions."

Welcome, Elizabeth. I'm so glad you are joining us.

Response to Week 1 Questions

(view spoiler)[I think most of us new who Marshall was, but didn't truly know much about the man. As you are seeing, you are getting to know him in depth. The tragic incident discussed in Mink Slide is just a touch of what Marshall had to face. I look forward to your comments as you read along.

You are so right, that King does a great job of painting a picture of the era that Marshall lived in. I had no idea that the racial tension was that bad in the 40s. When I think of civil rights and race relations in the US, I think mainly of the 50s and 60s.

Was this your idea as well? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 17 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Stetson Kennedy questioned J. J. Elliott on a hunch that he was a KKK member, to possibly expose the governor and his special investigator "...to whitewash a cold-blooded murderer by Sheriff Willis McCall." The FBI dismissed Kennedy and his conspiracy theory. What bearing could this information have on the case of the Groveland Boys? Do you think it would have been useful had the FBI not dismissed it?

2. On page 267, King talks about the second trial. Two of the four men had been killed, a third was serving a life sentence and one had been shot multiple times and was facing the electric chair. Marshall said "This is typical Southern Justice". What does this mean to you? How has your idea of justice during the civil right era changed (or not) as we have read this book? Is it worse than you had expected? (hide spoiler)]

[Avion]

Teri wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Week 1 questions."

Welcome, Elizabeth. I'm so glad you are joining us.

Response to Week 1 Questions

I think most of us new who Marshall was, but didn't truly know much about t..."

Thank you! I'm glad to join

Response to week 1 questions

(view spoiler)[I think I knew racial tensions were bad in the 40s but I don't believe I was aware of just how bad. I too thought the majority of the racial tensions and violence -- at least most of what I learned and was aware of -- happened within the 50s and 60s but now I realize that what happened then was simply a further escalation of the violence that was already happening. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Chapter 17 discussion questions

(view spoiler)[1. Stetson Kennedy questioned J. J. Elliott on a hunch that he was a KKK member, to possibly expose the governor and his special investigator "...to whitewash a cold-blooded murderer by Sheriff Willis McCall." The FBI dismissed Kennedy and his conspiracy theory. What bearing could this information have on the case of the Groveland Boys? Do you think it would have been useful had the FBI not dismissed it?

I was honestly shocked when Elliot admitted to Kennedy that he was a member of the KKK, even though I thought something was fishy when he gave credence to McCall's version of the story. We he was first introduced, I honestly thought that things were going to get better, because here we have a genuine forensic specialist who is sure to unmask the conspiracy, but, alas, nothing came of it. I remember that Marshall was not surprised the FBI did not acknowledge Kennedy's theory because they asked him names that he could not provide (just like they asked Marshall himself once upon a time). It's almost like the FBI did not want to go that way, and I don't think it was because the FBI was segregationist, it because they were protection the reputation of the Bureau, and a KKK FBI agent would definitely mean a swift death of a good reputation. This was a great kick in the gut for the defense, because, I think, Elliot could genuinely help the case because he could prove that McCall and Yates were liars and murderers. I just wonder what was in it for the Governor Warren. Elliot was, after all, publicly known as his man, and Warren was allegedly out of KKK.

2. On page 267, King talks about the second trial. Two of the four men had been killed, a third was serving a life sentence and one had been shot multiple times and was facing the electric chair. Marshall said "This is typical Southern Justice". What does this mean to you? How has your idea of justice during the civil right era changed (or not) as we have read this book? Is it worse than you had expected?

I knew Southern justice was happening, but to me it was part of another world (after all, I do live on another continent) and totally removed from my own sense of the world. This book gave me a very graphic picture I just wasn't prepared for. Although Croatia has it's own share of people who mysteriously disappeared and were found dead and buried in mass graves, not just in the time of the WWII and after, but also as late as the nineties, it still doesn't feel real. I felt the same about this, until this book and the lynching photos I saw on the internet. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Chapter 17 discussion questions."

Response to Samanta - Chapter 17

(view spoiler)[It would not surprise me if most men at that time in that area were involved in some way in the KKK. Some were very hush hush about it, others we're very open. If you weren't a part of the clan you feared them, even white people.

I completely understand how bizarre this all seems and how it appears to be a "story" and not real. There are still people in small towns in the south that handle things with "southern justice" and the KKK and similar groups are still organized, albeit in a much different way. You don't hear of cross burnings and you don't hear of lynchings anymore, but rallies, protests, signs, and social media still spews the hate from time to time.

I have wondered how other countries view us in America and if other countries face similar issues. I am glad to hear that Croatia is much better! (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

(view spoiler)[18 - All Over the Place, like Rats

There's a bombing at Harry T. Moore's. Governor Warren requests an investigation. Two funerals are held. McCall talks to the KKK.


View of NAACP leaders Harry and Harriet Moore's home after a Christmas day bombing in 1951

Chapter 19 - Private Parts

Security concerns are raised around Marshall and NAACP personnel traveling to Florida for the new trial. The KKK rally up in Florida. Marshall argues for a change in venue for the case. A plea deal is offered. The jury is selected. The trial begins with Willie Padgett. Norma Padgett and Deputy Yates take the stand.


Mabel Norris Reese

20 - A Genius Here Before Us

The trial continues. Curtis Howard and Lawrence Burtoft take the stand. Hunter tries to discredit the defense's witnesses. Testimony concludes.


Lawrence Burtoft

21 - The Colored Way

Closing Arguments. The jury deliberates. The verdict is given.


Jesse Hunter

22 - A Place in the Sun

Marshall goes back to working segregation cases. Marshall is appointed head of the Legal Defense Fund and position of director-counsel. The LDF continued to appeal the Groveland case. Marshall argues Brown versus Board of Education. The LDF continues to fight for Irvin’s stay. Buster Marshall battles cancer.


Brown versus Board of Education

Epilogue

The governor makes a decision on Irvin’s sentence.


LeRoy Collins (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week 4 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Fifteen years after the Groveland case, Marshall gave a speech with the line, “There is very little truth to the old refrain that one cannot legislate equality.” But the NAACP certainly didn’t have a resounding victory in this case. Was this just the best that could be hoped for on Martin Luther King’s famed “long arc of the moral universe”? Conisder that Marshall’s best known legal victory is the Brown v. Board of Ed desegregation case of 1954, but many recent reports have shown de facto segregation to be holding strong over 60 years later. Looking at the successes and failures of this case and way some characters changed (Mabel Norris Reese, Jesse Hunter, potentially even Norma Padgett at the very end), what do you see as effective ways to create equality, legislative or otherwise?

2. Reviewers have commented that Devil in the Grove has the narrative drive of a thriller. Did this book read or feel differently than other nonfiction books you’ve read in the past? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Chapter 17 discussion questions."

Response to Samanta - Chapter 17

It would not surprise me if most men at that time in that area were involved in some way in the KKK...."

I will be honest with you and say that USA doesn't have a stellar reputation in these parts of the world.

As for Croatia, there are no more disappearances, but it's been only 20 years since the end of the War and you can still feel the consequences in many areas.

[Samanta]

Response to Week 4 questions

(view spoiler)[1. Fifteen years after the Groveland case, Marshall gave a speech with the line, “There is very little truth to the old refrain that one cannot legislate equality.” But the NAACP certainly didn’t have a resounding victory in this case. Was this just the best that could be hoped for on Martin Luther King’s famed “long arc of the moral universe”? Conisder that Marshall’s best known legal victory is the Brown v. Board of Ed desegregation case of 1954, but many recent reports have shown de facto segregation to be holding strong over 60 years later. Looking at the successes and failures of this case and way some characters changed (Mabel Norris Reese, Jesse Hunter, potentially even Norma Padgett at the very end), what do you see as effective ways to create equality, legislative or otherwise?

With the victory in Brown vs. Board of education, Marshall managed to finally abolish segregation system legally, but it takes a lot more than that to change people. As is was shown in the book, people resisted that change which went against their long upheld traditions and they deliberated with the execution of the new laws. You can make someone do something legally, but to achieve your goal, you have to change people. Laws are, in the end, just words (to some people). It's like Captain Barbossa said in "Pirates of the Caribbean", "they are not rules, they are more like guidelines."

2. Reviewers have commented that Devil in the Grove has the narrative drive of a thriller. Did this book read or feel differently than other nonfiction books you’ve read in the past?

I did feel more like a thriller than an actual non-fiction. It might be because King used a lot of dialogue. I think it helped readers get into the story. I know I was so engrossed in it, I felt the sadness, the outrage, the anger...everything. This book has definitely earned it's place on my GR favorites shelf. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Conclusion of book
(view spoiler)[I'm so grateful for this investigative book. I'm embarrassed to have grown up in Florida, a generation after this, while never hearing anything about the events in Groveland. I was raised a mere 25 miles south of Moore's dynamited homestead, but never heard anything growing up about that history of my own county. All I remember of significance in the world during the 70s and 80s is that there was an "evil empire" out to kill us. The Communists were hell-bent on our destruction and the destruction of their own people. The USSR led the world in human rights violations. That's all I ever heard about.
Turns out, albeit on a smaller scale, my own county and state had human rights issues of its own; issues that apparently were not deemed significant enough to educate children about. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Matthew, I agree with you about this really very good book. I have enjoyed it so much. And like you, I am embarrassed by the lynching history and events that have taken place in SC. Our country and especially the South has had so many human rights issues. I was not even born in this country and did not live in this country until integration was in the schools. I was impressed with this book and how the author handled the issues and all the people. The dialogues made it easy to follow. Some scenes were difficult to read but I just wanted to keep reading. This book is definitely one of my favorites.

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Week 4 questions"

Response to Samanta - Week 4 Discussion

(view spoiler)[I'm really glad you liked this book and I know it has inspired you to read more on Marshall. I'll be doing the same.

Sadly, laws can be broken, but with Brown versus Board of Education, we have the precedent to challenge the abuses. Attitudes are changing generation by generation. We still have a long way to go but we are getting there.

Are there any activist type groups in Croatia?

Did any particular part of the book resonate with you more than other parts? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: " Conclusion of book"

Response to Matthew - Conclusion

(view spoiler)[I am so glad you joined us in this discussion, Matthew. You were able to give us some great context around the area, including some history and some understanding of the current vibe toward civil rights.

Like you, most all of what I heard about was Cold War stuff, Communism and before that, the tail end of Vietnam. My dad and I had a chat about racism and civil rights in our quiet little neck of the woods that I grew up in, in Missouri. Growing up, I had friends of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds and we just didn't treat anyone any different. My dad knew of some issues in the past, but again, everything was always integrated when he was young. So it's hard to wrap my head around the bigoted things that still happen today.

Have you talked with any of your elders from the area to see if they had heard about the Groveland Four or Willis McCall? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Week 4 questions"

Response to Samanta - Week 4 Discussion

I'm really glad you liked this book and I know it has inspired you to read more on Marshall. I'll be doing th..."

(view spoiler)[ It has definitely inspired me to read more. I've already finished Marshall's biography. I've also spotted other books on civil rights in my favorite local library. The library has an "American corner", which features books that are "gift of the people of the Unites States". It's my favorite part of the library. :)

In Croatia, we like to say that the old ways of thinking (those from the WWII and onward) won't change until the last of that generation is gone. It's a terrible thing to say, I know, but the younger generation, or, at least, those of us who have learned to think for ourselves and are not poisoned by the the teachings of our elders (and there are too many of those!), are sick and tired of dragging history into our present, and, I suspect, well into our future. People are still holding grudges from the times of WWII and communist Yugoslavia, and are dividing and judging people by that standard. It's not easy to live in Croatia these days, that's for sure. There are activist groups, but those are not heard enough. Did you know that the people voted for a clause against LGBT marriages, to be put into our Constitution? It's horrible and I am ashamed of my people.

The investigation and trials parts were the most emotional parts for me. Also, that last part describing McCall's terror spree after Brown vs. Board. I had to stop reading many times because I was so frustrated and angry, I wanted to yell and cry at the same time. Today, I met a gentleman from Florida while working, and I was this close to telling him about the book. Thank God I'm a professional! :D :D (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "Matthew, I agree with you about this really very good book. I have enjoyed it so much. And like you, I am embarrassed by the lynching history and events that have taken place in SC. Our country and..."

Response to Helga - Conclusion

(view spoiler)[I am glad you liked this book, Helga. Was there a particular part that resonated with you?

King did such a great job putting us in that time and place and truly understanding the mentality of the time. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hi everyone! I will be adding some more questions throughout the week, but we will be wrapping up our active discussion on Saturday and then moving on to Malcom X on Sunday. I hope you will all join us, as we continue the discussion on civil rights in America.

I would love to hear your thoughts on the overall book and let me know if there was anything in particular that stood out.

Just a note, I'll be traveling today through Wed evening on business. I'll be checking in from time to time but my responses my be delayed a bit. Enjoy your week.

[Helga]

Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Matthew, I agree with you about this really very good book. I have enjoyed it so much. And like you, I am embarrassed by the lynching history and events that have taken place in SC. O..."

Response to Teri
(view spoiler)[I especially liked to read how Thurgood Marshall was so forthright in his convictions and kept fighting until the end. I liked reading the story about the Groveland boys though parts were difficult to read as they made me angry at the system as it was. I also liked how TM worked so hard on the Brown versus Education at the same time. (hide spoiler)] So much of this book resonated with me.

[Teri]

Helga, please use spoiler tags for you post. Thank you!!

[Helga]

okay, thanks for reminding me. I didn't think I wrote a spoiler but corrected it.

I'm looking forward to the next book about Malcolm X.
Thanks for leading the interesting discussions.

[Matthew]

Teri wrote: "Matthew wrote: " Conclusion of book"

Response to Matthew - Conclusion

I am so glad you joined us in this discussion, Matthew. You were able to give us some great context around the area, includin..."

Response to Teri
(view spoiler)[When I read this book last fall I did mention it to my Dad, who moved to Florida in the mid-sixties. He knew right away what (Groveland) and who (Sheriff McCall) I was talking about. He just shook his head in disgust and said McCall was a "bad guy," or something to that effect.

He was also aware of Moore's homestead, since they now actually live in Mims itself. I hope to visit the homestead which has now turned into a civil rights-y museum with my Dad and my own boys. Need to do that this year.

And, yes, the book discussion's been great. Thanks for your insightful questions and responses. My first book discussion EVER, whooo-hooo. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Response to Week 4 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[Brown vs. Board of Education brought an end to legal segregation in the public schools. It did not make people understand or tolerate each other any better than they ever had. If your ultimate goal is to make everyone care for and love each other, then you should give it up now. That is an overly idealistic idea of what is possible between human beings of disparate backgrounds. That happens individually and through maximum familiarity over time. However, you can make certain in a just society that everyone is equally entitled before the law if you have the collective will to enforce it. I think that is what Thurgood Marshall was saying. Here's an example. Brown vs. Board of Ed. came in the year I started first grade. I never went to an integrated school until college and then there were only two black people on a campus of some 20,000. In 1981 (27 years after Brown) my daughter started first grade in south GA. and her class was far and away predominantly white. The black children had routinely been shunted into "special ed" classrooms - a blatant attempt to circumvent integration. However, they were eventually forced into Federal courts to justify this practice and, since they could not, were finally forced to integrate. Now my grandchildren go to fully integrated schools and have friends from a wide variety of different families. This kind of change can only happen when a society makes up its mind that it must follow the law.

Books like Devil in the Grove can contribute to this process in strange ways. This book was written like a fast paced thriller, had a huge readership and won the Pulitzer Price for Non Fiction. Because of that, everyone here learned something about a terrible era and its injustice that they had never known before thus increasing our understanding and sympathy. This is how true and lasting change happens.

I grew up under segregation and have been asked about it many times. There is no explaining it. It just was. And most white people never questioned it. This is the worst part of all. That a group of ordinary people can go through life and never doubt their innate superiority simply because of their color and that they can do terrible things in defense of the system that gives it to them. We have, in this country, come a very long way and it gets continually better even when it doesn't particularly look like it. (hide spoiler)]

Teri, thank you so much for leading this interesting discussion. It has been so very well done.

[Robyn]

Thank you Teri for leading, and for everyone who shared their thoughts. I learned a lot from reading the book - but more from the book club!

[Helga]

Comments about the book:
(view spoiler)[I would like to make one comment on the time period of this book, the late 40's and early 50's. There was a lot of unrest in the entire country. As we well know, the early 40's was embroiled in WWII and the destruction of the Jews, gypsies and other minorities. The racism in the South was as bad as the anti-semitism in other parts of the world, the Fascism of Italy, the Nazis and the concentration camps and Jasenovac death camps of Yugoslavia from 1941 to 1945. Anti-semitism and racism are both products of hatred and though things have gotten better, they both still exist today. I have seen racism and segregation in the south and came from a country that spawned the Nazis (Germany) and have had family members killed by the Nazis and who experienced anti-semitism.

There was a mention in the book on page 265, Chapter 17, that when the Florida state senate passed an " anti-mask" bill, the klan responded with a rash of "hit and run" cross burnings in the state. They declared war on what they called "hate groups" notably the NAACP and the Jewish group "B'nai B'rith". They claimed Jews ruined the northern cities and that they wished to invade the south, they were teaching coloreds communism and to incite rioting.
The atrocities in the book were so real to me and so horrible. (hide spoiler)]

Teri, thank you for leading the discussions in this book and providing all the additional material. It has been very enjoyable.

[Jovita]

Chapter 17 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Stetson Kennedy questioned J. J. Elliott on a hunch that he was a KKK member, to possibly expose the governor and his special investigator "...to whitewash a cold-blooded murderer by Sheriff Willis McCall." The FBI dismissed Kennedy and his conspiracy theory. What bearing could this information have on the case of the Groveland Boys? Do you think it would have been useful had the FBI not dismissed it?

To be honest, after reading how blatantly skewed and unfair this whole trial was, and what a mockery was made of the legal system and the constitutional rights of all Americans, I don’t know that anything would have caused a different outcome in this case. Walter Irvin could have been photographed shaking hands with the President of the United States on the White House Lawn at the very moment of the alleged rape, and he probably still would have been convicted.

2. On page 267, King talks about the second trial. Two of the four men had been killed, a third was serving a life sentence and one had been shot multiple times and was facing the electric chair. Marshall said "This is typical Southern Justice". What does this mean to you? How has your idea of justice during the civil right era changed (or not) as we have read this book? Is it worse than you had expected?

I think it means that as long as the accused was black and the victim was white, the black person would always be found guilty. The outcomes didn’t really surprise me, as there are just so many examples of cases like these during that time, where the defendant is so obviously innocent, but where they are found guilty because it was just unthinkable to acknowledge that a black person could be telling the truth and a white person could be lying. I think what surprised me more was how comfortable the majority of the white people in this town were with sending an innocent man to death, even when they could be almost certain that Padgett was lying. I just have such a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of people placing no value on this innocent man’s life! And also, that there was no concern for the type of environment of lawlessness this created, where white men and women could get away with things like this with no recourse as long as there was a black person around to shift the blame to. My personal opinion after reading this book is that Willie Padgett probably roughed his wife up that night, and after sobering up a bit and realizing what he had done, cooked up the idea of blaming the whole fiasco on some black guys rather than face the wrath of his father in law. Norma probably went along with it because, as a poor white woman in 1949, she didn’t have much more rights or recourse than a black man at the time. As Miss De Forest’s undercover work suggested, many, if not most of the whites in the community could pretty much ascertain that Norma was lying, and yet Walter Irvin is still found guilty, not once, but twice. What message does that send to Willie and guys like him? Do what you want and then blame it on a black person, and there are no consequences? How does that attitude protect the “flower of southern feminine virtue”?!? And what about turning a blind eye to all of McCall’s gross misconduct? How does it benefit the community to have a sadistic murderer running the arm of law, with the attitude that he himself is greater than the law?!?

I am sorry if my responses come across as angry, but reading this book made me feel very angry. Kudos to the author for presenting the facts of this case in such a way as to stir such emotion in the reader. I think anyone who truly believes in the Constitution and the rights of all men should feel a similar emotional response at the thought of such blatant miscarriage of justice. (hide spoiler)]

[Avion]

Chapter 8 discussion questions
(view spoiler)[1. On page 107, it is mentioned that from 1882 to 1930, Florida recorded more lynching than any other state. and from 1900 to 1930 it was more than twice that of Georgia, Louisiana or Mississippi. Did this surprise you? Had your definition of "the South" included Florida? I'm not at all surprised by this statistic and I still very much include Florida as "the South" despite all of it's northern migrants moving down there. There's still parts of the interior of the state that would be considered very rural, and much more like that of rural Mississippi. Even north Florida is much like southern Georgia.

2. How did the FBI help or hurt the NAACP work?
I would say reading of J Edgar Hoover's attitude towards intimidating victims of lynchings to the point where they start fearing for their lives from law enforcement a huge hinderance to the NAACP, and what they were trying to accomplish. When people are too scared to talk then there's a problem. It seems J Edgar Hoover was a little too overzealous in protecting some sort of image of the FBI than the actual citizens he was supposed to be protecting instead. (hide spoiler)]

[Papaphilly]

Bentley wrote: "Papaphilly's review of the entire book - spoiler html please- if you want to put this stuff up then post it on the other spoiler thread.

I am joining the discussion late. I only want to say that ..."

Sorry about that I did not realize that I put in spoilers. Thanks for the repost.

[Avion]

Chapter 9 discussion questions
(view spoiler)[
1. On pages 114-119 we read about the manhunt for Ernest Thomas. Thomas was involved with Bolita gambling and was sought in the rape of Norma Padgett. Why was Thomas running and why were the authorities looking for him? How much involved gambling and how much was for the alleged rape? Was this a case of the authorities needing a fourth subject to pin the alleged rape on?

I think Thomas was running simply because he assumed he was in trouble for gambling. The police thought he was running because he was guilty for the rape and so hunted him down and then brutally murdered him because running in their eyes sure looks like a confession of guilt and they needed another scapegoat.

2. On page 122 it is stated that if an all white jury handed down a life sentence instead of a death sentence you had in a sense won. How is this a win?
It's not a win by any means, but for a racist justice system stacked against African Americans life in prison (even for crimes that surely, did not warrant a life sentence) were much preferable over a death sentence especially if the victim were in fact innocent, so I think that's what Thurgood was hinting at when said this. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Week 4 questions""

Response to Samanta - Week 4 Discussion

(view spoiler)[What a wonderful area of your library!! ;-)

I think that is a great saying about old ways dying with older generations. That's very true. It is only a problem when attitudes and views are passed down with no ability to see things from a different point of view, but once that door is open and people begin to think for themselves, the old ways will hopefully die away. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Matthew, I agree with you about this really very good book. I have enjoyed it so much. "

No worries about the spoiler tag, Helga. I was on my phone checking in and didn't read thoroughly, so just wanted to make sure the tags were used if need be. You were right, there were no direct spoilers.

Response on Marshall - work ethic

(view spoiler)[ Marshall really did work hard and on multiple things at once. I got the impression from the book that it might have hurt his relationship with Buster (not to speak of his indiscretions). He seemed to always have his finger on the pulse of all that was going on with the NAACP and very likely was WELL deserved of his promotion.

I know little of his work as Supreme Court Justice, but I liked that in the Epilogue that he ruled on things that you would not have thought he would, because he was following what the law stated. He seemed to be honest and forthright and certainly not above the law. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Matthew, I agree with you about this really very good book. I have enjoyed it so much. "

No worries about the spoiler tag, Helga. I was on my phone checkin..."

(view spoiler)[ Marshall's "indiscretions" are the only thing I begrudge him. If you are honest, be honest in both spheres of your life. Otherwise, you look like a hypocrite. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Teri wrote: "Matthew wrote: " Conclusion of book"


Response to Matthew - Conclusion

(view spoiler)[If you visit the homestead and take pictures share on the glossary thread if you think of it. Even if it is next year. We love to continue adding to these threads, even after the formal discussion is over.

It is interesting that McCall's reputation preceded him even long after the case was over. That really validates the whole story. I know he had at least one son. I wonder if he carried on his father's views.

I'm so glad you enjoyed your first discussion and that you'll join in future ones. And, you are welcome! The questions just get the discussion going, it is our participants that make it great. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Pamela wrote: "Response to Week 4 Discussion Questions"

Response to Pamela - Integration

(view spoiler)[Very well said. I know it often appears that we're constantly battling human rights and bigotry still, but I completely agree that we've made much progress by leaps and bounds. I don't think that many of our younger generation truly understand where our country started and how far we've come. I hope that the riots and racial incidents we've seen recently are learning points for all.

And you're welcome. I'm glad you joined us in this discussion. I know you had already read the book. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Robyn wrote: "Thank you Teri for leading, and for everyone who shared their thoughts. I learned a lot from reading the book - but more from the book club!"

I am so glad you joined us Robyn and hope to see you in future discussions. It's not just about the book itself, but the dialogue that happens when many people from different backgrounds can discuss and learn from each other.

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "Comments about the book:."

Response to Helga - Overall book perspective

(view spoiler)[Thank you for that bit of information. It was a time of great tension overall and not something we discussed in depth. I think that King touched on that, with his discussion on Communism but could have gone into it a bit more on the after effects of WWII.

Sadly, I know the Klan and other true hate groups are not "dead". I have thought back many times to a story I saw on TV about Harrison, AR (not too awfully far from where I grew up) where the Klan headquarters is today (or at least a few years ago) and it is still a place of much racial hatred. I know that "southern justice" still reigned there.

Thank you for sharing your stories and perspective during this discussion. It was a tough book for us all. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 17 Discussion Questions"

Response to Jovita - Overall book review

(view spoiler)[No apology necessary. You are not alone in your anger over what this book uncovered and King really did a wonderful job of painting such a clear picture of the times and the area to elicit those exact emotions in the reader. It really makes us question where we are today in the fight for human rights and inspires us to make this world a better place for all.

People like McCall were hate-filled bullies and it takes a strong person to stand up to people like him and stand by their convictions to help change the attitudes of others. Likely there were people in the area at the time that did not agree with McCall but for some reason could not afford to affect their circumstances. For those people, they were more concerned about keeping themselves safe, rather than helping change the community. Over time, the circumstances have changed / are changing....for the better. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Elizabeth wrote: "Chapter 8 discussion questions"

Response to Elizabeth - Florida / The South

(view spoiler)[I am so use to thinking of Florida as the land of Mickey Mouse, citrus groves, and Cypress Gardens. I often forget about that panhandle that borders Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi. This book has been very enlightening on the issues in rural Florida at that time. Thanks for your comments / perspective. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Elizabeth wrote: " Chapter 9 discussion questions'

Response to Elizabeth - Chapter 9

(view spoiler)[It is beyond sad that the fate of this young man's life being spared was a win in anyone's eyes. It is sad that even today, there are people backed into a corner when the law is not on their side due to the "massaging" of the truth and working the details of the law in their own favor. Do you agree that this was the only choice for the defendant? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 18 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. How might the publicity of Moore's house bombing affect Florida's economy?

2. On page 279, minister Donald Harrington offered a prayer stating "...Our whole country stands blackened and discredited in the eyes of the world because Florida's failure to protect the lives and liberties of all of her citizens...." How did this case affect the country and civil rights as a whole? Do you think this trial had far reaching affects, outside of the south? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Matthew, I agree with you about this really very good book. I have enjoyed it so much. ""

Response to Samanta - Marshall / Indiscretions

(view spoiler)[I'm sure he had other faults, but yes, the indiscretions were kind of a biggee to me too. Did you think that he seemed to regret those on Buster's deathbed? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "Matthew, I agree with you about this really very good book. I have enjoyed it so much. ""

Response to Samanta - Marshall / Ind..."

Response to Teri - Marshall/Indiscretions

(view spoiler)[Maybe he did. After all, King (and the other Marshall's biography) did say, she was his best friend. There isn't much said about his personal life, so I wonder what was really going on there. Generally, after disappointments come, people barely manage not the start hating each other, so both of them must have been great people to overcome that and stay together. But again, I wonder how much love there really was, when he married his mistress a few months after "the great love of his life" died. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Chapter 18 discussion questions

(view spoiler)[1. How might the publicity of Moore's house bombing affect Florida's economy?

Well, people from other parts of USA started to boycott Florida. Florida lived off of agriculture and tourism, and suddenly it became a thing of principle to not visit Florida or buy products from there. I presume it was a shock to the natives of the country, because, first of all, they didn't see themselves in the wrong, and secondly, it was their livelihood at stake. It was a lesson to be learned, a hard one, but necessary. I am just not sure if they had actually learned it.

2. On page 279, minister Donald Harrington offered a prayer stating "...Our whole country stands blackened and discredited in the eyes of the world because Florida's failure to protect the lives and liberties of all of her citizens...." How did this case affect the country and civil rights as a whole? Do you think this trial had far reaching affects, outside of the south?

The news on the injustice spread all over country. People were talking, new leaders emerged, and when people start reacting, things have to start changing. Also, Moore's death had a completely different outcome than the one the instigators wanted. People were outraged, and instead of being afraid, they got more bold and started doing something to make things better. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Chapter 18 discussion"

Response to Samanta - Chapter 18

(view spoiler)[Yes, Moore's death did have a different outcome. That seems to be what needs to happen, even today, to get things changed. People have to take a stand in order for change to occur. Are there instances in Croatia where someone(s) took a bold stand that elicited major changes? (hide spoiler)]