ARCHIVE - APRIL 2016 - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Response to Teri's question for me"

Response to Jovita - Week 2 Discussion - Questions 2 and 3

(view spoiler)[Yes, and keep in mind that it was generation after generation propagating the idea that blacks were less than human. This came from early slavery days. Even though that was really no longer the thought at the time, they were still considered a lesser class. Even good Christian people at the time felt that way. But not everyone. ;-) (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "As a resident of SC I am well aware of the Dixiecrats since Strom Thurmond was such a large presence in the state. In 1948, the Democratic Party splintered due to philoso..."

Clearly, I need to read more about Thurmond. I didn't realize that his politics had changed.

[Catbird]

Response to Jim - #187

Jim wrote: "There have been a lot of comments about discrimination and the treatment of African Americans in the South. I the book the author of the book related about how life was better in the north."

I posted a message earlier about growing up in MI, and also mentioned the role that migration from the South played in race relations.

I've been wanting to add a follow-up to my comments.

I didn't meant to suggest that racial tensions in the North were entirely the result of a migration from the South. Tensions definitely increased, but they had been in existence in Northern and Midwestern states for over a century. I think it's important to understand that for a long time, people truly believed that there was scientific evidence that "proved" that blacks, or people of any color, were inherently inferior to whites. They were believed to be less intelligent, less capable, and more emotional and irrational. (Science also "proved" that women were less capable then men too, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

I have textbooks that my grandparents used in school in Ohio in the early 1900's. A geography lesson included a breakdown of traits of people of various races and ethnicity. In almost all examples, non-whites (non-WASPs) were described as being inferior to whites in various ways. These were commonly used textbooks at the time. So it's not surprising that generations of people, even in the North, had a racial bias, because it's literally what they were taught to believe.

Another factor that is often overlooked when it comes to race relations in the North are the feelings generated by the Civil War. It's commonly accepted that many families in the South lost homes, farms and businesses during and after the War, which led to a great deal of anger and resentment towards both Northerners and blacks. But, it's not as well understood that the same thing happened in the North. When a husband or son was killed, or returned home missing limbs, there were many women left on their own who weren't capable, either physically or sometimes even legally, of maintaining a farm or business. So those family properties were lost, just as they were in the South. As a result, there was a great deal of resentment towards blacks because many people blamed them, and their desire for freedom, for causing the War and it's painful aftermath.

There have been race riots in Northern states since before the Civil War. But those that happened in the early to mid-20th century, especially in industrial cities, were often associated with competition for jobs, and the creation and rise of unions. In some places, during a strike, management brought in blacks who were willing and glad to replace striking workers. This was especially true because for a long time, many unions didn't allow blacks to join, so they didn't feel any loyalty to the growing power of the unions. As a result, they had no problem with crossing the picket line. Management also realized that they could employ blacks at lower wages, which made them happy but made the striking white workers feel that their jobs and wages were threatened. In short, many of the mid-20th century race riots were as much about employment and economic competition as they were about race.

The riots that occurred later, especially in the 1960's were a different story as they involved many other factors.

But it's fair to say that segregation and racial tensions were alive and well in the North. It took a lot of court cases to compel the North to get rid of the de facto segregation that was still prevalent in the North. Although the civil rights movement was primarily focused on destroying the Jim Crow environment in the South, it also forced changes in the more subtle but still unjust attitudes and practices in the North.

[Jim]

Teri wrote: "Jim wrote: "I the book the author of the book related about how life was better in the north."

Hi Jim ~ I am not sure what you meant by the comment above. If you were mentioning a book, do you hav..."

[Jim]

Jim wrote: "Teri wrote: "Jim wrote: "I the book the author of the book related about how life was better in the north."

Hi Jim ~ I am not sure what you meant by the comment above. If you were mentioning a boo..."

In one of the first 5 chapters it is mentioned that Harlem and the shared home address provided a good home/place to live for African Americans. I was not referencing a book nor was I doing any self promotion. I am sorry if I didn't word my response better. I will try to better express myself in the future.

[Teri]

Ahhh. Very good. Just a typo, I see. No worries. I think you meant "In the book..." Makes sense now.

[Eva]

Jovita wrote: "Response to Teri's question for me

I'm glad you asked me that, as I've been thinking a lot about what would motivate seemingly normal, sane people to behave in this manner. I think a lot of it is..."

Chapter 8/ response to Jovita
(view spoiler)[Great points Jovita. Especially after reading the shocking case of William James Howard I kept thinking about the reasons that can drive men to such behavior. Does racism - even if as blatant and institutional as in this particular time and place - cause and justify this kind of reaction? If racism could be traced back to prejudice with a mixture of fear and hate only , I reckon it'd not have taken on this kind of dramatic proportions (as in this time period in the U.S.South or in colonialism or other cases of extreme racism). Prejudice is based on ignorance, something that can be easily overcome. And with more knowledge and information there is less hate and fear. But - as Jovita mentions the bully mentality in her comment - I think the bigger driving point for this kind of escalation is the wish for power. Whites had definite advantages of power, privilege and prestige in claiming their superiority over other races. This makes racism just another means to an end for a one group to claim their power over another group. Same can be applied to sexism, politics and religion.
So, I agree with Jovita that those poorer whites, who were essentially powerless themselves, were especially prone to violent behavior towards black citizens as that gave them a sense of power and made them justify their own shortcomings.
But in William James Howard's case the man who initiated the lynching - Alexander P. Goff - was neither poor nor uneducated (a former state legislator), but still felt the need to demonstrate his power over this 15-year old boy. Goff didn't use a public forum for humiliating the boy or imposing a penalty and thus perhaps demonstrating his power to a larger audience. He wasn't part of a bigger crowd that were riling each other up. He drove outside of town and killed the boy in front of his father.
Was he really just a racist who felt his actions were completely justified? Or was he a sadist and psychopath as well? His reaction was so completely uncalled for and over the top, that I still can't wrap my head around this. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Week 2 Questions

The rest of the South never seems to accept Florida as a part of it, but I think this book makes clear that in the small towns and farming communities, Florida's response to Black people was exactly the same as the rest of the southern states and, in some cases, even worse. Prejudice and fear always seem to be worse in these areas than in the large, more impersonable urban areas, probably because economic conditions are usually better. There are certainly exceptions to that. The Leo Frank trial and lynching that took place in Atlanta in 1915 certainly shows that large cities were equally as capable of grotesque behavior.

I did know about the "work or fight" laws but not under that name. They were usually included under common vagrancy laws and their enforcement depended on whether or not there was enough labor available. In good times blacks were left alone for the most part and in bad times they pretty much ser ved as the scapegoat.

I have read about the idea of debt slavery but was not aware that it existed still as such. I would point out that being held constantly in debt to the farm or factory or even the "company store" has been chronic throughout the history of all workers. The use of debt to coerce a labor force has been widespread mainly because it is so effective. Think indentured servitude, mining towns, etc. I suppose the idea arose as an alternative to outright enslavement, not only here in this country but everywhere else. Abuse of the labor force at this end is possible because where workers are unskilled and in jobs that require no real training or knowledge, they have no where else to go and thus, little or no leverage against an employer. Particularly if they are kept from organizing as they were, and in some cases, still are in the South.

Response to Jovita

I have wondered about that religious aspect myself. How do devout, practising Christians ( in this case) justify murder, abuse, mutilation for any reason, but certainly in a case where the accused are the accused only because of their color? Then I remember that the Bible itself was used to justify slavery (sons of Ham, etc.). The real tragedy in this case and almost all of the others is that the black community had no backup. Out of fear and/or cowardice, the State and Federal governments mostly refused to get involved or to uphold the rights of the black man in this country.

I really don't care what kind of wicked opinion or so-called righteous belief you hold, it should be made clear that if it causes actual harm to a person or group, you will not be allowed to act upon it. We are seeing an example of this right now in the laws being passed to prevent serving (and more) the LGBT community. Those are just Jim Crow laws by another route. I grew up in the era where every store, bar and gas staion, motels, five and dimes, and even dry cleaners had a "We reserve the right to serve.." sign and I sure don't want to see us turn back to that.

[Teri]

Great comments all. I think this has been a very good discussion. It truly is hard to wrap your head around the thinking of these people and why they felt they could get away with their heinous acts.

To add to what Pamela said - here's some information on the Curse of Ham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_o...

And here is an interesting NY Times article on the Curse of Ham, slavery and racism:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/01/art...

[Teri]

Chapter 7 Discussion Questions - page 86

(view spoiler)[1. On page 86 the NAACP definition of lynching is stated as "...an illegal killing by three or more persons claiming to be serving justice or tradition." Is this different than you would have expected?

2. How did the arrival of the clan in Groveland stand to affect the citrus industry? (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Teri, thanks for posting those articles. My apologies. I sometimes forget that not everyone is familiar with the things I might mention. In light of that, I am posting a link to an article on the Leo Frank case for those not familiar with it.

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/ar...

Chap. 7 Discussion Questions (view spoiler)[

1. The definition....Not so much different as I was impressed with how exact it was. The definition of lynching could easily have been explained as the hanging of a black person by a crowd of unruly whites. Instead, we have a very explicit definition that covers the wide variety of methods used to kill and does not limit it to a crime against blacks alone. They were the primary victims, without question. Still, whites and Jews were also lynched, as the Frank case shows.

2. The second question about the Klan is a complicated one as it depends on what the KKK was around for to begin with. Occasionally they simply show up to march. Then they are a large bunch of like minded men dressed in full regalia to show strength and support. That citizens might be frightened by this is an added benefit but not necessarily sought. Sometimes they are invisible and show up to burn a cross on somebody's lawn or church. Hence the name, The Invisible Knights of the Fiery Cross. Twice when I was in high school here in Atlanta, they burned a cross on the lawn of the Catholic Cathedral. Since I am a Catholic and was in a parochial school at the time, it had it's intended effect. Also, they would gather on Stone Mountain regularly and burn a cross on the summit because it could be seen all over Atlanta, just about. Usually at Easter, for some weird reason. They also show up to cause some violent trouble which is how most people think of them. Sometimes this is done on their own iniative and sometimes they are asked to come in and do a little "night riding". Ocassionally, they have been asked in by the local largest employer to scare their work force into submission or to run out labor organizers. So they both use and are used by the ruling powers. The tragedies occur when it goes out of control, of course. In this case, it doesn't appear that the citrus people invited them in so I would have to say it was probably a bad effect as it resulted in scaring the black workers literally away. While they don't have the power today that they had in the 20's - 40's, it's not wise to write the Klan off as ineffectual. (hide spoiler)]

Having said that, one of the funniest things I saw growing up in Atlanta was a group of Klansmen in full regalia trapped in a small restaurant while a circle of black protesters walked around the diner. The Klansmen wouldn't come out because this time, they were afraid. The police had to come and escort them through the picket lines.

[Teri]

Pamela ~ don't forget your spoiler tags around the book discussion questions. Thank you!

Response to Pamela - Chapter 7 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[I thought it was wise how they did not tie the definition to a specific act. I always think of lynching as hanging, but this opens it up to be other acts of brutality too. Then you have this clause of being in the name of justice or tradition. What if it was done just because of hate? Is it then just outright murder and did this definition hold up in court / be used in court cases?

The interesting thing about the KKK in Florida at this time, is that they were essentially running black people off, so they were losing some labor. Were there enough poor white people that could pick up the slack? Many of the KKK were officers of the law or primary business men, some, perhaps, were some of the citrus growers. You would think that they wouldn't want to run their workers out of town. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Response to Teri
(view spoiler)[

I think that when that definition was written, the legal implication of a hate crime and it's added penalties would not have been a known concept (in the legal sense) So they would have been defining it as a capital crime. The use of "by tradition" was actually a way to separate it from the usual act of murder and connect it to a race crime idea.

I don't think, at that point, they were concerned with their workers one way or the other. When it came to the supposed rape or other acts involving a white woman, the white community was pretty much in agreement as to what should happen. All the historical incidents that I know of basically ended this way. Those whites who did help did so behind the scenes.

As to white workers picking up the slack,there are some jobs they simply wouldn't do. That changed during the Great Depression when they took over any job, but by this time they didn't need to work in the fields ( or groves) so they wouldn't. There's a phrase in use at the time for that kind of work, but I won't use it. It's much the same way today where jobs that used to be done by blacks before integration are now done by immigrant Mexican labor. The group that moves up, even slightly, simply won't do those jobs anymore.

Forgot one other thing. I don't know how that definition held up in court. These cases very rarely made it to court. The first one I actually remember was the Emmett Till case and two men were arrested but, of course, they were acquitted. Blatant misjustice. Everyone knew they were guilty but that's the way it went. Justice began to work when the Federal government finally began to bring violation of civil rights suits against these people. They didn't get punished for actual murder but at least they got caught.
(hide spoiler)]

[Bryan]

I have this book in my library:

by Joseph Crespino (no photo)

[Rachel]

Hi, I got a late start, but I just got done reading chapter six this morning. I saw some discussion questions for chapter six, I managed to copy one question. But lost the thread. I am not sure If I got the question on the Dixiecrats right?

Chapter six discussion questions (view spoiler)[

what is a Dixiecrat?

I think its not a nice term to describe men like Sheriff McCall. Men from the south, who hold opposition to civil rights or anyone they see as inferior.
.
From 1944 to 1948 Harry T. Moore and some NAACP associates worked to sign up black Democratic voters, after the Smith v. Allwright decision. This turned out to be a great threat to "...the citrus belt, to the Southern way of life, and to Willis V. McCall." How did this affect the atmosphere of the time and why was it a threat to the area?

The citrus business is how lake country made their money. So it was important that they enough workers in the groves. this created an environment of hostility, fear, and violence. Workers were basically paid slaves. They were forced to work long hours- and if they didn't they would be beaten. And if they tried to quit or runaway they were arrested, heavily fine, and beaten. so when African American were allowed to vote in primaries- McCall (rightfully so) that he was going to be voted out. After running Harry T Moore out of town. McCall then aligned with the KKK threatening African Americans if they voted - he would hurt them. Not surprisingly he was re-elected as sheriff. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Bryan wrote: "I have this book in my library:

by Joseph Crespino (no photo)"

Thanks! On my TBR list.

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "Hi, I got a late start, but I just got done reading chapter six this morning. I saw some discussion questions for chapter six, I managed to copy one question. But lost the thread. I am not sure If ..."

Hi Rachel. No worries, the questions for Chapter 6 are posted to message 194 of this thread.

Response to Rachel - Chapter 6

(view spoiler)[You made a great point that the "right arm of the law" really controlled things. They were outright harassing Blacks into work through hostility, fear, and violence. Once they had the right to vote in the primaries, they had to strengthen that strong hold and did it via the KKK. Fear and intimidation were their tactics. Do you think McCall/others ever considered that with Smith vs. Allwright and the passage of the law in Texas for Blacks voting in the primaries that it would affect their little area in Florida? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 8 Discussion Questions - page 107

(view spoiler)[1. On page 107, it is mentioned that from 1882 to 1930, Florida recorded more lynching than any other state. and from 1900 to 1930 it was more than twice that of Georgia, Louisiana or Mississippi. Did this surprise you? Had your definition of "the South" included Florida?

2. How did the FBI help or hurt the NAACP work? (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Do you think McCall/others ever considered that with Smith vs. Allwright and the passage of the law in Texas for Blacks voting in the primaries that it would affect their little area in Florida?

(view spoiler)[
I think they must have, just going by how they reacted. Before that, I don't think McCall had in serious involvement with the KKK. After all he was a sheriff, he didn't want to be known to associated with the KKK/even though he shared their beliefs. I think that him joining forces with KKK and letting everyone know that he did was a sign of desperation and how scared he was about Blacks being able to vote now in primaries. Not only his job was on the line, but general way of life as well. where he could run rough shod over blacks. He didn't want African Americans to learn the power of voting ( which would be their weapon- against an unjust and corrupt law enforcement) (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "Do you think McCall/others ever considered that with Smith vs. Allwright and the passage of the law in Texas for Blacks voting in the primaries that it would affect their little area in Florida?
..."

Response to Rachel - McCall / KKK

(view spoiler)[I would be curious how many people involved in law enforcement/politics in the south, we involved in the KKK. I actually assumed that many were closet members. If not members, I suspect the KKK had them in their back pockets. Thoughts, anyone? (hide spoiler)]

[Tim]

This might be a little off topic, but I was googling pictures of lynchings (I don't recommend it) and I came across one where African-American protesters had set up a mock noose on a tree to protest Ferguson.

After reading a few chapters and learning about the lynchings, no wonder the African-American community is all stirred up, really, they have a reason to be.

[Samantha]

Tim wrote: "This might be a little off topic, but I was googling pictures of lynchings (I don't recommend it) and I came across one where African-American protesters had set up a mock noose on a tree to protes..."

I am a historian and have done a lot of research on lynchings and the worst part of it is that some of these pictures were made into post cards and sent to family members and friends elsewhere. Some of the messages even boast of the fact that they burned and hung a N^$$@# and the smiling faces of children and people is insanely creepy.

[Teri]

I'll take your word for it Tim. :-) I hadn't heard about the mock noose for Ferguson but I know that Joe's Crab Shack restaurant, that posts nostalgic pictures, recently came under fire because someone noticed that there was a lynching in the background of the photo.
(http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/11/joes-c...)

I can't imagine post cards. Sad!

[Teri]

Chapter 9 Discussion Questions - pages 117-122

(view spoiler)[1. On pages 114-119 we read about the manhunt for Ernest Thomas. Thomas was involved with Bolita gambling and was sought in the rape of Norma Padgett. Why was Thomas running and why were the authorities looking for him? How much involved gambling and how much was for the alleged rape? Was this a case of the authorities needing a fourth subject to pin the alleged rape on?

2. On page 122 it is stated that if an all white jury handed down a life sentence instead of a death sentence you had in a sense won. How is this a win? (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Confused re: Ernest Thomas as fourth suspect:
(view spoiler)[Question: Why are the authorities looking for Ernest Thomas at this point? Even though it's my 2nd time through the book, I seemed to have missed the part where the finger gets pointed in his direction as the fourth suspect. Can someone help me? I even looked his name up in the index but couldn't go back and figure out why they were onto him so early? Was he somehow tied to ownership of the gun or did Greenlee give his name up under torture? I understand why he'd get the hell out of town as a black man, but not sure why they were seeking him as the fourth suspect. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Confused re: Ernest Thomas as fourth suspect:
[spoilers removed]"

Response to Matthew - Ernest Thomas

(view spoiler)[And so my question in message 224.... :-) Why were they looking for him? Does it appear that it was in relation to a gambling issue? I.e. Bolita and the argument between his mother and the rival juke joint owner? (I have to go back and read that part again, honestly). They needed a 4th suspect, and he happened to be right for the part. What are your thoughts? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

The Blinding of Isaac Woodard by Woody Guthrie

This is not Woody singing, but a version of his song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A7A5...

[Teri]

Chapter 10 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[Most of this chapter deals with the interviewing of the defendants and the pre-trial questioning / evidence. The boys were beaten, they didn't ask for a lawyer, there may or may not have been a connection between all four of the boys, as well as with the Padgetts, and the statements of McCall and his men differed from the boys. Lots of inconsistencies and true information that was dismissed.

1. Was there a major injustice that stood out to you? Was there anything that wasn't covered that you thought should have?

2. On page 145 the brief first encounter between Franklin Williams and Jesse Hunter is discussed. King states that it is an encounter that would "define[d] their relationship thereafter." What struck you about each man? (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Response to Teri -- Ernest Thomas
(view spoiler)[OK, I just completed through chapter 11 and that helped me with my question somewhat. I guess it was pretty obviously the bolita racket that got him in trouble. Wasn't there even an experienced mob-crime reporter that came down to Groveland and reached the same conclusion? I guess I was just a little confused about how it got from 2 suspects up to 4, but if I recall correctly I think that change in the story originally came from Norma P. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Response to Chapter 8 Discussion Questions:
(view spoiler)[1. On page 107, it is mentioned that from 1882 to 1930, Florida recorded more lynching than any other state. and from 1900 to 1930 it was more than twice that of Georgia, Louisiana or Mississippi. Did this surprise you? Had your definition of "the South" included Florida?
ANSWER: The Florida lynching stats absolutely surprised me. Hey, we were right, we weren't like the rest of the South. We were worse...
2. How did the FBI help or hurt the NAACP work?
ANSWER: It seems to me the tenuous "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" relationship Marshall and J. Edgar Hoover forged was mutually helpful: for the FBI politically and for the NAACP in helping develop leads/evidence/publicity. "States' rights" sounds like a worthy cause, but without the trumping of states' rights by the federal government (e.g., FBI), would things look any different now than they did then? During Reconstruction the Feds gave up on blacks and turned there back on them, leaving them to the mercies of Southern white folk--no mercy at all, that is. At least with the civil rights movement the Feds finally got it right in crushing Jim Crow, albeit slowly. (hide spoiler)]
Response to Chapter 10 Discussion Question #2:
(view spoiler)[2. On page 145 the brief first encounter between Franklin Williams and Jesse Hunter is discussed. King states that it is an encounter that would "define[d] their relationship thereafter." What struck you about each man?
ANSWER: KEY WORDS, Williams = naive, deer-in-headlights, principled, proud, a fighter. Hunter = smug, comfortable, in his element, duty-bound, hide-bound.
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Response to Teri -- Ernest Thomas
[spoilers removed]"

Response to Matthew - Ernest Thomas

(view spoiler)[I don't know why Norma said a few boys (pages 59-61. Then McCall retold the story saying four. Then they had to come up with four. Charles and Ernest were friends and had been together the night Charles was arrested for being at the wrong place at the wrong time (See chapter 5 around page 63). Charles and Ernest had separated, allowing Ernest to run. Ernest was likely being sought out the night he died for the bolita issue so they said he was one of the four. McCall and his cronies had two sets of two black boys and decided they had to be the four.

Did I confuse you more? I might try and put a timeline together this week and post in the Glossary to help. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Response to Chapter 8 Discussion Questions:"

Response to Matthew - Chapter 8 and 10

(view spoiler)[Oh cringe. Florida was worse on lynchings...but it has redeemable values! ;-) That was a surprising stat to me. I really had no idea and just have not heard, until this book, about civil rights issues in Florida at all. I would have guessed Alabama.

I will be curious, as we get to through the book, how the Feds helped or not in appeals.

Franklin certainly tried but seemed to be scared a lot, don't you think? Marshall, in contrast, seemed more willing to push boundaries, even if he was scared. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Response to Teri

That statstic on Florida surprised me also. I would definitely have picked Mississippi, Teri.

If anyone wants to read a very good definitive history of the antebellum era through to the civil rights era, try The Most Southern Place on Earth: The Mississippi Delta and the Roots of Regional Identity by James C. Cobb. It is particular to Mississippi history but pretty much everything could be said about the rest of the South as well. It deals with all that we have been discussing here. It came out in the mid 1990's but I still remember it as being one of the best. It's not actually a light type of history, more academic, but it will give anyone unfamiliar with the history of the South a good idea of what went on and somewhat of how it came to be that way.

by James C. Cobb

[Helga]

I was also surprised by the Florida statistics and would have picked Alabama or Mississippi. SC had quite a lot of lynchings as well.
This weekend in SC, as reported by the State newspaper there is a symposium about understanding the Reconstruction era in SC. Jim Clyburn the first African-American to represent SC in the US Congress will deliver the address. Clyburn stated, "SC is still feeling the lasting legacy of post-Reconstruction era. Black leaders during Reconstruction took our state and nation in new direction, creating public schools and social welfare institutions. But progress stopped with the enactment of Jim Crow laws. The institutionalized discrimination of that time that led to our modern day problems of educational, health and income disparities that continue to plague SC. The Reconstruction period marked the transition from slavery to freedom and citizenship for nearly 4 million enslaved blacks. It saw the enactment of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments which expanded constitutional protection of citizen rights for all Americans."
Jim Crow laws and white supremacists like the KKK reversed these changes and progress and wrought the violence of lynchings and turmoil as we are reading in this book. They did not want blacks to gain any rights or wealth.

http://www.thestate.com/living/articl...

[Teri]

Pamela and Helga - thanks for the added information. Pamela, don't forget your citation. ;-) Another book added to my TBR pile.

It is very interesting how the events / laws of 60+ years ago, still affect us today. I hope that events that are happening today (Ferguson, North Carolina transgender law, et. al.) don't once again set us back. Do you think that is the direction some areas are going in?

by James C. Cobb

[Teri]

Chapter 11 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Pages 165-166 discusses Norma Padgett's testimony. King dramatically covers Norma's identification of the boys. Do you think this one gesture lost the case for the boys? Did the "evidence" (i.e. shoe prints, tire prints) seem like they would have been compelling to the jury?

2. Norma Padgett is described as a bad egg. Do you think that she really is a bad egg, or did she succumb to fear from her husband, father, and other men in the community and lied about the whole thing? What is your impression of Norma? (hide spoiler)]

[Steve]

Answer to Chapter 9 Discussion Questions
The time, place, and circumstances made this a very difficult trial for the defense to win. Getting a life sentence instead of the death sentence was a small victory. However, it was probably considered a win since it is probably all the defense could hope for at the time.
Answer to chapter 10 discussion questions;
The two biggest injustices to me were that the defendants did not receive a fair trail(In any shape or form) and the lynchings.

[Jim]

As we are coming to the enc of our second week of reading the Devil and the Grove I wanted to share some of my learnings and reactions to this section.

1. I have a hard time understanding lynching of African Americans. Many lynching were done in daylight without people wearing hoods. You may wish to look at http://withoutsanctuary.org/main.html - warning these are very disgusting images.

People came out to the lynchings like they were going to a picnic. Not only did men and women attend, but children were present at the lynching.

2. I knew Thurgood Marshall was involved in numerous cases defending African Americans. What I didn't know that his goal was not to win every case (He couldn't due to the "system."). His goal was to get the state courts to make enough mistakes so he appeal the case.

3. I couldn't read about Sheriff McCall without thinking about Bull Connor.

[Rachel]

On page 122 it is stated that if an all white jury handed down a life sentence instead of a death sentence you had in a sense won. How is this a win?

(view spoiler)[
I think that this is a win because your at least saving their life. Plus, its gives Marshall and co a chance to work on a repeal or try to get the sentence reduced. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Steve wrote: "Answer to Chapter 9 Discussion Questions "

Hi Steve - Don't forget to use spoiler tags for discussion specific to the book.

Response to Steve - Chapter 9 and 10

(view spoiler)[I had not thought about how any verdict could be a win, but I certainly understand now. This gives them a complete chance later to be able to take a better stab at a defense on appeal. If I know my law correctly, a death sentence automatically goes to appeal?

No fair trial in any way and so much was just dismissed. Everyone in that area was in McCall's back pocket, don't you think? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jim wrote: "As we are coming to the enc of our second week of reading the Devil and the Grove I wanted to share some of my learnings and reactions to this section.."

Hi Jim - Don't forget to use spoiler tags for discussion specific to the book.

Response to Jim - Week 2 reading

(view spoiler)[Public punishment has been around forever. It's extremely sad that it had to be a family affair. Do you think that watching the spectacle had an affect on the children that they would keep from becoming involved in crime later?

I have to check up on Bull Connor. Not familiar with him. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "On page 122 it is stated that if an all white jury handed down a life sentence instead of a death sentence you had in a sense won. How is this a win? .."

Response to Rachel - Page 122

(view spoiler)[That really is the heart of the matter. Whatever it took to save their lives. If nothing else, commute the sentence to life. Do you think they will be able to get a better, more fair trial on appeal? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

(view spoiler)[12 - Atom Smasher

Charles Greenlee talks with Sheriff McCall. Williams goes on the road to raise funds for future appeals of the Groveland boys. Charles Greenlee gets a life sentence and appeals are started. Yates, Evans, and Campbell, all men working with McCall are in trouble for their beatings of the boys when they were arrested. However, there is not action as it might cause further harm to the boys. The author discusses a NAACP / University of Texas student case on segregation.


Judge Futch
13 - In Any Fight Some Fall

Appeals continue. There is a stay of execution for Shepherd and Irvin. McCall and all are found innocent of beating charges. Charles Hamilton Houston is sick. Norman Bunin, copy editor for the St. Petersburg Times questions the Groveland case. Norma Padgett is questioned. Franklin Williams is fired after a disagreement with Marshall and moves to the NAACP office in California. Thurgood Marshall goes to Korea.


L to R: NAACP attorney Jack Greenberg, defendant Walter Irvin, NAACP counsel Thurgood Marshall

14 - This is a Rape Case

Miss L. B. De Forest visits Lake County to do some undercover investigation by getting to know the citizens of the area. Curtis Howard looks for Norma Padgett to question. Arguments are heard for Shepherd vs. Florida at the U. S. Supreme Court.


Thurgood Marshall, Jack Greenberg, Franklin Williams, Alex Akerman and his wife, along with NAACP counsel James Nabritt and Robert Carter

15 - You Have Pissed in My Whiskey

Shepherd and Irvin ruling is overturned by the U. S. Supreme Court and are granted a new trial in Taveres County. Thurgood Marshall will argue the new case. Defense starts building their case. Ms. De Forest meets the Padgett family. McCall transports Irvin and Shepherd to Taveres County then shoots them for trying to escape en route. McCall and Irvin are put in the hospital. Each tell their side of the story and each story differs. Irvin is visited in the hospital by Jesse Hunter.


Walter Irvin

16 - It's a Funny Thing

Irvin is questioned about the events the night of the shooting. McCall tries to redeem his reputation. A coroner's inquest is held and McCall is cleared of any wrongdoing.


Photo of Willis McCall taken in 1951, 15 minutes after he claimed to have been attacked by Sam Shepherd and Walter Irvin, handcuffed prisoners.

17 - No Man Alive or to Be Born

Reporter Stetson Kennedy uncovers fellow klansmen but is mostly dismissed by the FBI and NAACP. There is a successful attempt to move Irvin again to Taveres County. Klan activity is on a rise in the south. Harry T. Moore writes a letter. The new trial is moved out of Lake County and Marshall is barred from defending Irvin. Marshall goes on a campaign to shed light on what is really happening, speaking at the Zion Baptist Church. It inspires Harry T. Moore to continue on his journey to help with the Groveland case.


Stetson Kennedy (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week 3 Questions

(view spoiler)[1. Willis McCall held a tight reign on Lake County. In the beginning of the book, he prevents the men of Bay Lake from storming the jail and possibly preventing lynching the Groveland suspects. But clearly, he was capable of violence against those same men. What do you think Sheriff McCall's motivations were throughout the story, and why do you think he was able to remain sheriff for twenty-eight years?

2. The book focuses tightly on this one case, but occasionally the lens widens. There’s the portrait of black Harlem centered on 409 Edgecombe Ave (25-29). There’s the way Florida’s economy depended on citrus labor (76-81) and the way the state’s demography and economy were changing. There’s the local politics of the bolita lottery game (78-79, 114). Which of these asides – or others – helped you understand the Groveland case better? Which did you find useful for thinking about mid-20th Century American history? (hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

Robyn wrote: "Marc wrote: "I too am a little late to the discussion, just finished chapter 5. I knew only a little about Justice Marshall (basically, that he was one, he was pivotal in the civil rights movement)..."

you are talking about a class as opposed to real life. I've seen and experienced businesses not wanting my business because of the color of my skin. Logically, the business loses because they won't earn any future money from me and anyone I tell (don't eat there, they don't like us), but that is not how they are measuring success. They are measuring success as strikes against minorities like me, not against the business's bottom line. Google business discrimination cases for examples. The fact it still is happening shows how far we still have to go, and yes, a few likely are fake, but most are not. And the fact that certain states allow (or try to allow, only having governor's veto it, sometimes because it's the right thing to do, other times over businesses threatening to leave) discrimination, perhaps not against skin color, but against sexual orientation) shows we aren't free from discrimination just yet.

In training classes, you likely do see that. but if that was always true, then it wouldn't be a point now, would it? Not shooting you down, just saying that for some people, it's a surprise, even if they won't express it openly.

[Marc]

Florida leading the nation in lynching and bull conner reply

(view spoiler)[
Yeah, I too was surprised about FLA leading the nation in lynching. One woulda thought the orange growers would have moderated it some, since many of those lynched were cheap/reliable labor, yet, while we read that it was definitely a consideration, it also seemed they were somewhat cowed by the mob.

And I agree with Jim, the sheriff reminded me also of Bull Conner. I sadly learned in the book that he never paid for his actions, having been continually reelected till 1972 (chapter 10). Was hoping he at least woulda been voted out earlier and served time.
(hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Week 2 Questions

(view spoiler)[1. The author devotes a large part of this story describing the forces of laws and justice in Jim Crow South, and he makes it a point to describe Florida as "South of the South." Does this fit with your idea of Florida in the Civil Rights era?
Unfortunately, I know next to nothing of US Civil rights movement, so I don't have a ready opinion, but this book is definitely giving me an education, an unpleasant one, but still an education.

2. The citrus industry plays an important role in this story, and with labor an important part of production, were you surprised to learn about "work or fight" laws that allowed sheriffs like Willis McCall the ability to arrest men who didn't work?
No, not really surprised, but appalled all the same.

3. Were you aware that "debt slavery" and peonage conditions were still in place, where arrested men were made to work in the groves to pay for bail or fines?
No surprise here. There had to be a way to keep slaves, even though slavery was legally non-existent. The sad thing, debt slavery exist even today, not so open and approved of as in those times, but it's there. (hide spoiler)]

General comment on the Week 2 chapters: It's getting increasingly hard for me to read this book. I just can't believe (and yet I can) there was so much evil in people. But, I guess it's "normal" when you consider another race less than human. Still, to condemn to death four people, so that you could have your 5 minutes of fame, is beyond sick. I'm still waiting to find out what was going on in that silly girl's head. I also wonder about that age old debate on nature vs. nurture when it comes to Norma.

[Helga]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Week 2 Questions

1. The author devotes a large part of this story describing the forces of laws and justice in Jim Crow South, and he makes it a point to describe Florida as "South of ..."

I agree with you Samanta. It is disturbing to read the depravity and violence of these people and what was norma thinking to cause this?

[Teri]

Marc wrote: "Florida leading the nation in lynching and bull conner reply.."

Reply to Marc - Florida Lynching stats

(view spoiler)[It is very disappointing that McCall never got his due. It's obvious that the city leaders had the KKK in their back pocket and vice versa. Do you think that he was re-elected because everyone liked him, or were they scared of him? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Week 2 Questions"

Reply to Samanta - Week 2 Questions

(view spoiler)[This is a very sad situation to read about. It is important for us to read about the historical atrocities (Holocaust, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, wars, etc.) of the world to hopefully prevent them from happening again.

As for Norma...I just want to think so much that she was reacting to fear/intimidation by her husband/father/other men of the community. Yes, I would agree that it's part nature/nurture. I just don't think, though, that she would have outright lied like that if she wasn't told to and if the men told her they would protect her no matter what. I'm sure they told her that this these men deserved their punishments. (hide spoiler)]