ARCHIVE - APRIL 2016 - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion Questions - Prologue - page 2."

Response to Samanta - Prologue - page 2 - terms

Yes, the "N" word (nigg*r) as it's often referred to is a hig..."

Response to Teri

(view spoiler)[I know that the term is very offensive, because, to be honest, it sound like that even to me, and I am not even remotely connected to the cultural history of it. I can understand why a black person would be offended if a white person called him/her the N word, but I could never understand why it became acceptable for black people to use the word on each other. A very interesting question. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

I guess I've always assumed that all blacks came from Africa at some point in time. Am I wrong? I grew up in an environment (here in Florida) where the "new" term "African-American" was laughed at and despised for the reasons Samanta wondered about: silly, non-assimilating, etc.
Having read up on the history of American slavery, racism, Reconstruction and the civil rights movement over the last few years, I came to the conclusion that if "they" want to call themselves "African-Americans", then more power to them. I think "African" largely captures their past. And "American" recognizes their present. After all that they've been through, I think they're entitled to call themselves whatever they please, and if a name they choose doesn't seem like they're trying to mix into the "melting pot", then that's their choice, a choice they have earned through blood, sweat, and tears.
Same thing goes for the names often selected for African-American children that don't look anything like Tom, Dick, or Harry. Again, so what? Why does that offend many whites? Whites brought them here in the bottom of slave ships. If they don't want to wear a "slave name", ala Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali, then I think they've earned the right. But, boy, in certain circles I've run in over the years, you'd think the names were a personal affront to white people. How soon we forget our history.

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "I guess I've always assumed that all blacks came from Africa at some point in time. Am I wrong? I grew up in an environment (here in Florida) where the "new" term "African-American" was laughed at ..."

I do some work with genealogy research, which is why I made the comment about, not all black people are necessarily from Africa. There are also Australian Aborigines that are native peoples who are considered black and therefore, not from Africa. These days, through DNA tests, many black people are finding that that are not necessarily, primarily from Africa. There are other people who are dark skinned (not necessarily black but perhaps mixed race) that don't know their heritage at all, that may find out that their background is from another country, but because they don't know, identify as "African American".

[Teri]

This is an interesting article you all might want to peruse, that talks about what some people prefer to identify as. It is from 2012:

"Some Blacks Insist 'I'm not African-American'"

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46264191/ns...

[Teri]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

(view spoiler)[6- A Little Bolita

Ernest Thomas takes a bus out of town to hide. A mob heads to his mom's juke joint and shoots out the windows then disperses. Charles Greenlee is beaten in jail while being questioned. A background on the citrus industry, Sheriff McCall, and the game of Bolita.


Bollita Set

7 - Wipe This Place Clean

The town is deserted until clansmen show up. The National Guard arrives and a mob is averted. McCall deals with night riders. We learn some background information on the Shepherd family.


1940s Vintage Sunnyside Oranges Crate Label - Lake County, Florida

8 - A Christmas Card

The case of Willie Howard is laid out. Background is given on racial tensions and lynchings in Florida. We learn about Harry T. Moore, who works for the Florida NAACP office. J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI are consulted.


Harry T. Moore

9 - Don't Shoot, White Man

Ernest Thomas is on the run. We learn some background on Thomas, his family, and Bolita in Florida. Thomas is hunted down. Marshall assigns the Groveland case to Franklin Williams.


Isaac Woodard

10 - Quite a Hose Wielder

Shpherd and Irvin are identified by Willie Padgett. The Groveland three are interviewed by the NAACP representatives. A search begins for a defense attorney. The trial date is set. Alex Akerman, Jr. is hired as the defense attorney and will be helped by his nephew Joseph E. Price. Jesse Hunter is lead prosecutor. Pre-trial begins.


Alex Akerman, Jr.

11 - Bad Egg

Norma is examined by a doctor and the results are discussed. The pre-trial is concluded and the trial begins. The verdict is announced.


Norma Lee Padgett (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week 2 Questions

(view spoiler)[1. The author devotes a large part of this story describing the forces of laws and justice in Jim Crow South, and he makes it a point to describe Florida as "South of the South." Does this fit with your idea of Florida in the Civil Rights era?

2. The citrus industry plays an important role in this story, and with labor an important part of production, were you surprised to learn about "work or fight" laws that allowed sheriffs like Willis McCall the ability to arrest men who didn't work?

3. Were you aware that "debt slavery" and peonage conditions were still in place, where arrested men were made to work in the groves to pay for bail or fines? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "This is an interesting article you all might want to peruse, that talks about what some people prefer to identify as. It is from 2012:

"Some Blacks Insist 'I'm not African-American'"

http://www.n..."

Thank you for that article.

"Today, 24 years after Jackson popularized African-American, it's unclear what term is preferred by the community. A series of Gallup polls from 1991 to 2007 showed no strong consensus for either black or African-American. In a January 2011 NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, 42 percent of respondents said they preferred black, 35 percent said African-American, 13 percent said it doesn't make any difference, and 7 percent chose "some other term."

It's quite interesting how the community kind of wants to label itself. In Croatia, we don't have the racial division (for obvious reasons), but we do have an ancestral one. It doesn't matter if you are fourth generation born on the grounds of Croatia (even though it was Yugoslavia back then), if your surname sounds Serbian, you're a Serb (heard it from my own grandma). It's ridiculous. You know that famous Nikola Tesla had the same problem. His father was Serbian, Nikola was born in Croatia and considered himself Croatian, but people are divided even today about his nationality.

Nikola Tesla

[Rachel]

Chapters 1-5: This is my first time reading a book on Thurgood Marshall. I like the writing style of this book, I am finding that I getting through chapters easy, which is always a plus for me. Plus for me it felt like I was actually there (view spoiler)[ Though I was disturbed by the injustices done to African American back in those days, but at the same time it made me respect Thurgood Marshall even more that he was willing to take cases out in the south, knowing that he could be lynched. Plus, there was a slim chance that he would even win these cases. Sometimes victory was just getting a life sentence, instead of the death penalty. In the book it talked about how Thurgood was struck down by some mysterious illness? I was thinking it could be from emotional turmoil that he had to go through. with his job, and it sounded like there was problems with his marriage as well. So far I am really enjoying this (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Rachel wrote: " In the book it talked about how Thurgood was struck down by some mysterious illness?"

Response to Rachel

(view spoiler)[I immediately thought it was stress, but they didn't know stress-related illness back then, right? Could also be drinking and junk food. His body just started shutting down. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Welcome Rachel. I'm glad you are joining us. This is turning out to be a great discussion.

Response to Rachel and Samanta - Stress / Illness

(view spoiler)[It is amazing what stress will do to a body. It is very possible that stress was the reason Marshall was sick. I tried to find out what he was sick of, but couldn't find any information. I am quite curious (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Teri wrote: "This is an interesting article you all might want to peruse, that talks about what some people prefer to identify as. It is from 2012:

"Some Blacks Insist 'I'm not African-American'"
..."

I imagine every country has their issues with some kind of prejudice. Thanks for your insight into Croatia.

[Eva]

Teri wrote: "Hi Eva. You're right on time for the discussion.

Response to Eva - Civil Rights in America

As Bentley and Matthew has mentioned, the level of racial tensions during the 40s was more predominate i..."

Thanks to Matthew, Bentley and Teri for the welcome and your responses! Sorry for not using a spoiler tag.

(view spoiler)[ As to how much this part of American history is known abroad, I'd say that everybody (speaking of Germany) will have heard of Martin Luther King and most people will also recognize the name Rosa Parks, but I think any further details will only be known by people who have a special interest or do English advanced classes in school/uni.
Like I said before though so much knowledge and information about race segregation and the civil rights movement has been formed by popular culture. For example, I don't think I would have heard of Malcolm X without the 90's movie by Spike Lee.
And because it's all relatively recent history, the effects still influence news that will be read in Germany as well. Starting e.g. with Barack Obama as the first black president and ending with the recent discussion at the Oscars where several black actors refused to appear, because no black actor had been nominated. Even the removal of the Confederate flag was on the news here.
So, I reckon it is understood that this still is a very sensitive issue in the U.S., but perhaps not always comprehended to the full extent abroad. But for me it is similar concerning Nazi Germany. Whenever I traveled abroad I was astonished what people said to me about the Holocaust or Hitler Germany. Some of these things I would have considered taboo.
So, it's great that there are discussions like this one that help have a better understanding of historical events in another country. (hide spoiler)]

[Robyn]

Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion Questions - Prologue - page 2

Quote from page two:

"A federal judge once told him that with just one look at the smudges or erasures on a lawyer's pleading he'd know if it w..."

Can anyone tell me where the term "cracker" comes from? It's used a lot in the book, but I've never heard anyone say it. I'm from the midwest & west, so maybe it's just not a term we use out here. Isn't it interesting how a term is not offensive if you don't know what it's supposed to convey?

[Robyn]

Marc wrote: "I too am a little late to the discussion, just finished chapter 5. I knew only a little about Justice Marshall (basically, that he was one, he was pivotal in the civil rights movement), but that's ..."
I have to disagree a little about who we like to work with. I used to teach a Project Management class which was also a little bit of a competition between the table groups. The table with the most diversity - different parts of the company, mix of men & women, different races, different backgrounds - *always* won. I like to think it was because they were able to discuss everyone's ideas because there was no "norm". As an engineer and project manager, I always seek out the most qualified set of people, and often they wind up being very diverse. That said - way to go on pursuing your education and getting to where you want to be. It's stupid, but sometimes arbitrary rules and people's perceptions stop others from doing what's best and most important for them. I wish we'd get away from trying to protect everyone from failure and let them just grow! Einstein said "The only source of knowledge is experience,"

[Matthew]

Robyn wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion Questions - Prologue - page 2

Quote from page two:

"A federal judge once told him that with just one look at the smudges or erasures on a lawyer's pleading h..."

Response to Robyn re: "crackers":
Having grown up in Florida I had always heard the term used to refer to whites, with a "redneck"-type connotation. It was understood to be on a par with the n-word, but I never knew the origins of it until I became an adult, probably from the internet. It refers to the old Florida country cowboys and the "crack" their whips made. Seriously, that's it. Hardly on par with the n-word, huh?

[Robyn]

I finished the book this weekend. I just couldn't put it down. The events occurred before I was born, and based on what I read, I've had a very sheltered life. Before reading the book, I knew that Thurgood Marshall was a Supreme Court justice, but now I have a better understanding of why he was on the court. (view spoiler)[He certainly earned his place! I can't imagine how much stress he would have had in his life, going into places where he wasn't considered a person to work to change things for everyone. He risked his life many times.
I was horrified at how people treated each other back then. With the polarization we're seeing in our country right now, I'm a little concerned that we're headed back in time. It's completely unacceptable that the government and the local sheriff gave the people nowhere to go for help. I can't believe the level of corruption and illegal behavior among the sheriff and his deputies.
I'm really interested in seeing the movie. Hopefully, they'll get started on it soon.
(hide spoiler)]

[Robyn]

Matthew wrote: "Robyn wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion Questions - Prologue - page 2

Quote from page two:

"A federal judge once told him that with just one look at the smudges or erasures on a lawye..."

No, not even close. Thanks for educating me!

[Rachel]

Samanta wrote: "Rachel wrote: " In the book it talked about how Thurgood was struck down by some mysterious illness?"

Response to Rachel

[spoilers removed]"

Samanta wrote: "Rachel wrote: " In the book it talked about how Thurgood was struck down by some mysterious illness?"

Response to Rachel

[spoilers removed]"

Thanks Teri :) glad to be here. I am really liking this read along. I have been getting more into the civil rights movement reading wise.

Response to Samatha

(view spoiler)[ I am not sure if they knew that back then? I would guess probably not. Your right his chain smoking and Maybe the doctor had some hint that was the case because he recommended he go on vocation ( I think it was palm beach? I can't remember where they went to) and take off some time from work. though it helped him recoup some, but Thurgood is a work addict. So he couldn't stay away long from his job. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Eva wrote: "Teri wrote: "Hi Eva. You're right on time for the discussion."

Response to Eva - Civil Rights in America

(view spoiler)[Thank you so much for that viewpoint. That helps me put things in perspective for this discussion for our international members. I agree, that it is great that we can have these discussions about historical people/events worldwide. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "
Response to Robyn re: "crackers":"

Here's some more information around the term. I am originally from the midwest (Missouri) and heard the term a lot, more as a joke, along with hillbilly and redneck. It was considered equivalent to the n-word, yet it was more socially accepted. You never used the n-word under any circumstances, and you rarely said cracker, but if it was used, it was used by a white person to another one as or in a joke.

Thanks Matthew for the information on its origins. I had no idea.

More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker...
by Dana Ste. Claire (no photo)
by Miles H. Plowden III (no photo)
by Randall Kennedy (no photo)

[Teri]

Robyn wrote: "I finished the book this weekend. I just couldn't put it down. The events occurred before I was born, and based on what I read, I've had a very sheltered life. Before reading the book, I knew that ..."

Response on Civil Rights today

(view spoiler)[Glad you enjoyed the book. I don't know that it is so much that we're headed back in time, but that we maybe haven't gotten as far as some people may think. Like you, I've felt somewhat sheltered, in that I rarely saw instances of prejudice. As I've gotten older, I've seen less and less. Yet, I have black friends who will tell me some horrific instances of demeaning behavior they have encountered still today. So as much as it seems that we've come a long way, I'm afraid that issues are still there and prejudices are still often prevalent. It is not just against blacks but for anyone that is in a "minority" group or unique in someway. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Teri wrote: "This is an interesting article you all might want to peruse, that talks about what some people prefer to identify as. It is from 2012:

"Some Blacks Insist 'I'm not African-American'"

http://www.n..."

Teri, great article. thanks

[Bryan]

Hi folks:

Great book.

Chapter 1-p. 15

(view spoiler)[I was struck by the sign in TN. Nigger read and run. Don't let the sun go down on you here. If you can't read, run anyhow!

These kinds of towns were common in Sundown towns.

by
James W. Loewen

(hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Teri wrote: "Week 2 Questions

1. The author devotes a large part of this story describing the forces of laws and justice in Jim Crow South, and he makes it a point to describe Florida as "South of the South." ..."

Response to Teri's Week 2 Questions
(view spoiler)[Caveat: I've read through chapter 8.

[1. The author devotes a large part of this story describing the forces of laws and justice in Jim Crow South, and he makes it a point to describe Florida as "South of the South." Does this fit with your idea of Florida in the Civil Rights era?
ANSWER: I grew up in central Florida. We "prided ourselves" on the fact that there were two Mason-Dixon Lines: the usual one and the one we'd joke ran across Florida somewhere around Ocala, south of Gainesville. I think it used to help us communicate that we in central FL weren't like those Southern country hicks in GA, TN, AL, etc. Just being honest here. Truth is, where I grew up we were "taught" by society to look down on blacks and equally on poor "white trash", rednecks, etc. To me, in retrospect, there was a sad economic racism/classicism where we looked down our nose at both poor blacks and poor whites. Which is more palatable, that you are a racist or a classist? They're both foolish and unloving, in my opinion. Classism was easier to justify, because it was argued that racism based on color may be wrong, but classism based on socio-economic condition is OK because those poor losers obviously had some fundamental problem that prevented them from rising up to the middle class, for example. Horrible thinking, and so prideful, instead of saying "there, but for the grace of God, go I."

2. The citrus industry plays an important role in this story, and with labor an important part of production, were you surprised to learn about "work or fight" laws that allowed sheriffs like Willis McCall the ability to arrest men who didn't work?
ANSWER: Yes, it was a surprise. Just another excuse to pick them up off the street and re-enslave them. Just think about how hard it was for the Southern "leopard" to change its spots during the slavery era due to economic dependency upon slavery. Seems like economics were still driving a lot of the state's abuse of blacks in the orange groves even after WWII.

3. Were you aware that "debt slavery" and peonage conditions were still in place, where arrested men were made to work in the groves to pay for bail or fines?
ANSWER: Yes, I was aware only because I had read Slavery by Another Name, as I mentioned elsewhere. I highly recommend that book. You will see slavery had never really ended after Reconstruction. The Southern states were allowed to continue acting with impunity, all in the name of the almighty dollar.
[bookcover:Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II|2319745] by Douglas A. Blackmon
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Bryan wrote: "Hi folks:

Great book.

Chapter 1-p. 15"

Response to Bryan - Chapter 1

(view spoiler)[Thanks for the recommendation. Interesting that you should bring that sign up. I was always told that the little town in Missouri that my dad now lives in had same sign. I had always wondered if it was true and I recall seeing a picture of the sign while working on some genealogy research a few years back. I asked my dad last night to confirm if that was true and I was remembering it correctly, and he did confirm it. We had an interesting discussion about racism in our area of the world (SW Missouri). He grew up in the 30s, 40s, 50s and said that whereas he knew a lot of the racial issues like the Groveland Four growing up, they had very little issues there and most everything was already integrated. That sign was up in the 30s but by the time he was a tot, it was gone.

Thanks again for that recommendation. It's on my TBR list now. (hide spoiler)]

[Bryan]

Teri wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Hi folks:

Response to Bryan - Chapter 1

(view spoiler)[Some part of Missouri had a lot of sundown towns. It is an eye-opener book. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Bryan wrote: "Hi folks:

Great book.

Chapter 1-p. 15

I was struck by the sign in TN. Nigger read and run. Don't let the sun go down on you here. If you can't read, run anyhow!

These kinds of towns were commo..."

RE: Sundown Towns
(view spoiler)[
I agree with Teri, Bryan. That looks like a great book to read. I've always been convinced that the rural north FL area I now live in was a sundown "town" because the ratio of black residents is so low compared to the rest of the South. I never knew such areas had a name... (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Teri wrote: "Week 2 Questions"

Response to Matthew - Week 2 Questions

(view spoiler)[I'm so glad you are with us in this discussion to give us the perspective of things from Florida. Great comments on racism vs classism. Both deplorable, and I suspect that, at least at that time, most people would condone classism and find an excuse that makes it okay.

I didn't know much about the debt slavery or the work or fight laws but I was not surprised by it. Once slavery was over, many were still indebted to someone.

BTW - check your bookcover link on your citation, it didn't seem to bring the cover art out. Likely a typo and I know you know how to do the citations. ;-) (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Bryan wrote: "Teri wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Hi folks:

Response to Bryan - Chapter 1

[spoilers removed]"

Response to Bryan

(view spoiler)[Oh even more intrigued now....moving it up on the TBR list. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Thoughts on Chapter 6
(view spoiler)[Gulag Archipelago much? Beating confessions out of people...
Harry T. Moore, referenced on p. 83: I have family in Mims, FL and Moore's homestead is there, but I'd caution you to not look it up on the net for spoiler purposes until you're done with the book. I will certainly be visiting there this year and will come back here to report on my visit. (hide spoiler)]
Thoughts on Chapter 7
(view spoiler)[The Scottsboro boys referenced on p. 86. I read a book on Scottsboro in my freshman college American History class. It made quite an impression on me then, even though my classmates and I were a little miffed at the professor's fixation on black history. Old habits die hard...On p. 94, the Rosewood Massacre is mentioned. That's a couple hours from my house. I remember in the 90's the Florida Legislature passing a compensation bill for victims of Rosewood. I had never heard of Rosewood before then, even having grown up in Florida, sad sad sad. (hide spoiler)]
Thoughts on Chapter 8
(view spoiler)[This William James Howard lynching really takes the cake. I mean, are you kidding me? Live Oak and the Suwannee River are an hour from my house. I've canoed this section of the Suwannee. Close to home...I'll never look at bluffs no the Suwannee the same again. But, really, killing a boy over a love note? You've got to have a major superiority complex to let that worry you -- but I guess they had to protect the mythical image of the chaste Southern belle. On p. 103, I was disappointed to see the legendary Florida "left-leaning" politician Claude Pepper fail to come to the aid of Thurgood Marshall and Willie James Howard's family. Pepper is quite deified in liberal circles in this state today. (hide spoiler)]

[Samantha]

1. How much do you know about Thurgood Marshall prior to reading this book? The Groveland Four case?

I know very little about Thurgood Marshall. I know that he was a Supreme Court Justice, he was a great advocate for the Black community, I know he was a great lawyer, and I know that there are many schools named after him. In school, I only learned that he was a Supreme Court Justice and he lead the crusade for the case of Brown v. Board of Education.

I guess you never really think about the steps that a person took to get them where they were in life. In Thurgood Marshall’s case, all of the cases that he took on and the people he defended before he became a Supreme Court Justice. I have never heard about the Groveland Boys so I am excited to learn more about it.

2. What is the difference between prejudice and hate? Hate and fear? How are they depicted in the book?

I feel like prejudice and hate really go hand in hand. My understanding of prejudice is an opinion of something without a reason or experience while hate is an intense feeling of dislike. I think to hate something requires you to have met or engaged with something or someone in order to establish that you don’t like it. I think prejudice is the starting foundation for hate because someone can already have preconceived notions about something/someone and say they hate it based on information that they have been given or heard from others.

Just like prejudice and hate, I feel that hate and fear also go hand in hand. Like mentioned before, hate is a strong emotion of dislike for someone or something while fear is an emotion that tells us that something is dangerous and can hurt us. Not to say that everyone is this way, but if you tend to grow up in an area where people think that a certain race is dangerous, you will most likely grow to think that that race is dangerous just because that is most comfortable. (Remember I said most people, I grew up around racist people and am indeed not a complete jerk like them). When people put that fear into a person, they tend to feel hatred because they are unsafe and want to do something about it. In the book, people are fearful of blacks because they rape their women, and that fear turns to hatred as they lynch and create mobs to destroy many innocent blacks.

3. How do you feel about the changing of focus between the chapters? Do you feel that you're getting to know Marshall as his career progresses?

At first, I didn’t really like to focus changing between chapters, but the more that I have read the more that I actually like it. It helps me understand who Marshall was through his career triumphs and also seeing how he interacted and worked with his team. It really gives us an in depth understanding of the previous trials, why he took those cases, and what he was hoping to accomplish with the funds that were accessible to him.

[Catbird]

I'm a little behind but I wanted to add to this topic.

Response to Samanta: #140: Response to Week 1 Questions

Samanta wrote: "At this point,though, all I want to know is what the heck was going on in Norma Lee's head, playing with people's lives like that."


We haven't discussed Norma Lee much yet and I also wonder what was going through her mind during this whole incident and even in later years. I decided that one way to try to determine that was to try to collect some factual information about her to create a bit of a biography. I've posted what I've found in the Spoiler thread .

(view spoiler)[

One perspective of her state of mind can be seen in her official testimony, which I've also posted in the Spoiler thread. Of course, it's important to keep in mind that her testimony is undoubtedly the "made for public consumption" Norma Lee.

It feels like King is being very careful to not assign a motive to Norma Lee's actions - at least not at this point in the book. He's given us a little bit of background about her. She apparently didn't have a great reputation in the community, for one or more reasons. She was 17 and most teenagers at that age are eager to assert their individuality, sometimes in very strange ways. Also, as I mentioned in the Spoiler thread, she was a middle child and so perhaps felt a greater than usual need for attention.

But, I tend to agree with the theory put forth by Franklin Williams as mentioned in my message on the Spoiler thread. For those who don't want to read that thread, I'll include it here (source info in the other thread).

"Norma did not claim that she had been raped until she encountered her husband and a deputy sheriff who were out searching for her. Willie took his wife aside, spoke alone with her for several minutes, and then she told her story. Franklin Williams speculated that the Padgetts had fabricated this tale on the spot to protect Willie. He guessed that following the dance, Willie had beaten Norma for refusing to grant him his "matrimonial rights," and subsequently he implored his wife to claim she had been raped by blacks or her family would take revenge upon him."

This makes the most sense to me. I think that Norma thought it was in her best interests to protect Willie from her father so they could remain married, if only because that got her out from under her parent's thumb and gave her a measure of independence. Although this sounds cold, Norma may also have realized that going along with Willie's request would give her some leverage to use on him during the rest of their marriage. If nothing else, it may have put an end to the abuse.

Once she made her claim, events snowballed and devolved into the tragedy of the Groveland Four. It's possible that she had little idea of what might happen once she made her accusation. But, it's also possible, even probable, that she knew what could happen but put her own selfish desires first.

I wonder the most about how she's been able to live with her conscience since that day. But it's possible that she simply might not have cared what happened, as long as things worked out well for herself and perhaps Willie. As far as I can tell, Norma is still alive. Now that the families of the Groveland Boys are making efforts to have the men exonerated, it would seem only right for Norma to officially state what everyone else knows, "They didn't do it.".

But unless or until that happens, I think the situation is best summarized by Vivian Shepherd, a niece of Samuel Shepherd, who was shot and killed by Sheriff McCall. In an interview published by the Orlando Magazine (sourced in the Spoiler thread) she said,

“While I don’t know her reasons for what she did, I pray she can come to a conclusion in her life, and she can let it go. She can forgive herself and move on. Just say it’s done. Just tell the truth and know that’s it’s done and move on. I would love for her to say it never happened.

“If she doesn’t, then that’s between her and God.” (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Thoughts on Chapter 6"

Response to Matthew - Chapters 6-8

(view spoiler)[Thanks for the tip on Moore's homestead, I'll add a glossary entry for the website during our journey through the book.

This book is really bringing to light (for me, anyway) so many relevant cases that I knew nothing about. I grew up knowing about the more publicized ones, but some of these I've never heard of.

How chilling to live so close to Suwannee. I am sure I would not be able to look at the bluffs again without remembering this case.

Don't give up on Pepper yet. We don't know specifically why he didn't get involved at this time. His name may pop up one more time. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samantha wrote: "1. How much do you know about Thurgood Marshall prior to reading this book? "

Response to Samantha - Week One Questions

Hi Samantha. I'm glad you're joining us for this discussion. Don't forget to use the spoiler tags. See messages 5 and 6 for the details to do that. If you need more help, please don't hesitate to ask us here. We're happy to help you.

(view spoiler)[I particularly like your comment that prejudice can be the foundation of hate. Prejudice, hate, and fear all go hand and hand. People are often a product of their environment. If they grow up to learn to hate or fear and never see another side, they will often time carry that into their adult lives.

The focus between the time periods took me a bit to get in to, but once I did, I realized how well it helps us understand Marshall as we go along. It seems to be melding quite well as move forward.

Any surprises for you in these first few chapters? (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Catbird wrote: "I'm a little behind but I wanted to add to this topic.

Response to Samanta: #140: Response to Week 1 Questions

Samanta wrote: "At this point,though, all I want to know is what the heck was goi..."

Thank you for that. I'm definitely going to go through spoiler thread, but I'm want to finish the book first.

[Jim]

Chapter 8
(view spoiler)[
Although there are numerous disturbing events in this book, Chapter 8 "A Christmas Card" was one of the most disturbing chapters. As a father, I can't imagine what was going through the mind of James Howard as he watch his son having to choose between jumping in the water or being shot.

When his father said, "Willie, I cannot do anything for you now." My mind was thinking of my own son and how I could never live through a day like that. It was truly a moving section of this book.

This story reminded me of Emmett Till, a 15 year old boy who was visiting Mississippi in 1955. He was killed and his body dropped into a river because he whistled a a white woman.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hi...

(hide spoiler)]

[Jim]

There have been a lot of comments about discrimination and the treatment of African Americans in the South. I the book the author of the book related about how life was better in the north.

I have lived in Michigan and the Detroit area most of my life. We have had our own problems with discrimination and racism in this area. I remember my dad telling me about a "race riot" in Detroit in the 1940's. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit....

Our schools were segregated to until the 1960's and many of our schools are separated by race because of where people live.

While the South was more blatant in their approach, the problem with discrimination was present throughout the country. Remember that Truman was the president who desegregated the Armed forces after WWII.

[Bryan]

I have to say that I know little of Marshall. This book makes me want to read a full biography on this important man.

[Matthew]

This book discussion is great!

[Teri]

Jim wrote: "Chapter 8."

Response to Jim - Chapter 8

(view spoiler)[The Willie Howard story was very haunting to me. I kept hoping that he would choose to jump and then "somehow" make it through and show up later. But apparently that was not the case.

I'm glad you mentioned the Emmitt Till case. PBS did a special on it a long time ago. I found the full show/movie on YouTube and it is listed in our spoiler thread, message 43: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jim wrote: "I the book the author of the book related about how life was better in the north."

Hi Jim ~ I am not sure what you meant by the comment above. If you were mentioning a book, do you have the details? Would love to know if you have a recommendation with citation. However, if it is self-promotion, please remember that we do not allow that. ;-) Thank you!

[Teri]

Bryan wrote: "I have to say that I know little of Marshall. This book makes me want to read a full biography on this important man."

I'll be watching your 50 books read for reviews. ;-)

This one looks promising:

by Juan Williams (no photo)

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "This book discussion is great!"

I'm glad you're enjoying it. Be sure to check out our list of future Book of the Month discussions on message 45 here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Teri]

Chapter 6 Discussion Questions - page 82

(view spoiler)[1. From 1944 to 1948 Harry T. Moore and some NAACP associates worked to sign up black Democratic voters, after the Smith v. Allwright decision. This turned out to be a great threat to "...the citrus belt, to the Southern way of life, and to Willis V. McCall." How did this affect the atmosphere of the time and why was it a threat to the area?

2. What do you know about the Dixiecrats / Strom Thurmond? (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

As a resident of SC I am well aware of the Dixiecrats since Strom Thurmond was such a large presence in the state. In 1948, the Democratic Party splintered due to philosophical differences between northern and southern democrats. It was a segregationist political party. At the 1948 DNC convention led by Humphrey, they wanted to reverse Jim Crow and become racially integrated. 35 Democrats walked out and formed the Dixiecrats with a slogan "Segregation Forever" with openly racist views. The candidate was Governor Strom Thurmond of SC. He carried Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and SC in November with 39 electoral votes. Thurmond switched to the Republican party in 1964 and was Senator of SC until he died at 100 in 2003. He almost always ran unopposed as Senator so won reelection every time. He did mellow on his racist views with time and had a biracial daughter, Essie Mae Washington-Williams who died at age 87 in 2013.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h175...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essie...

[Jovita]

Week 2 Responses

(view spoiler)[1. The author devotes a large part of this story describing the forces of laws and justice in Jim Crow South, and he makes it a point to describe Florida as "South of the South." Does this fit with your idea of Florida in the Civil Rights era?

I can’t say that I’ve ever really thought much about Florida’s role in the Civil Rights Movement. As a southerner today (SC), I can say that it is easy to dismiss Florida as “not really Southern”, since there is such a different vibe in Florida. With so many people moving there from up North, as well as the vibrant South American and Caribbean cultural influences and thriving cities like Miami and Tampa, it is hard for me to think of it the same as the mostly rural, less diverse communities I grew up in and around.

2. The citrus industry plays an important role in this story, and with labor an important part of production, were you surprised to learn about "work or fight" laws that allowed sheriffs like Willis McCall the ability to arrest men who didn't work?

I had no idea that such laws existed during this time, and was disgusted by the way these black workers were forced into labor, forced to accept unfair wages, threatened with bodily harm if they so much as spoke to a union organizer. The blacks working the groves at this time were essentially still enslaved!

This section of the book confirms the point Matthew made in last week’s discussion about the economic motivations at play. Clearly, there was a delineation between the wealthy and poor whites in their reaction to this case. As the author points out, the wealthy grove owners were keenly aware of the potential loss of business due to lack of labor if the blacks were to be permanently driven from the area, and thus were in favor of allowing the matter to be settled peaceably within the court system. However, for the most part, it was the poor and working class whites who were leading the riots and willing to burn the black neighborhoods to the ground as retribution for the alleged rape. I was especially struck by the account of the destruction of Sam Shepherd’s property. It was clear that, while some of the hate directed towards his family was motivated by the accusations against his son, a lot of it was anchored in jealousy due to his financial successes, and his ability to achieve financial independence from the white-owned citrus industry. As Matthew stated last week, much of the reaction from the poor whites was rooted in fear of poverty, and the perceived threat of blacks taking their jobs, their land, and perhaps eventually, even their women/families/social status.

3. Were you aware that "debt slavery" and peonage conditions were still in place, where arrested men were made to work in the groves to pay for bail or fines?

This is something that I was not aware of, and it was very upsetting to read about. It is unfathomable to think that roughly 85 years after the end of the Civil War, blacks were still suffering under conditions much like slavery, and yet that is exactly what they faced. To have so little control over your own life, to live in constant fear, under constant threat, is nothing short of terrorism in my opinion. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "As a resident of SC I am well aware of the Dixiecrats since Strom Thurmond was such a large presence in the state. In 1948, the Democratic Party splintered due to philosophical differences between ..."

Thanks, Helga. Why did he generally run unopposed? Was it that no one just wanted to run or that they didn't want to run against him?

I knew about his biracial daughter. That was quite a headline when it came out.

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Week 2 Responses"

Response to Jovita - Week 2 Responses

(view spoiler)[I had never really considered Florida part of "the south", for many of the same reasons you mentioned. Of course, I think of Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Disneyworld, Cyprus Gardens, etc. It is the land of vacation and retirement. So this book is enlightening.

You really highlighted the issue. For some areas in the south, slavery never really ended, it was just redefined with different ways of subjugation.

You can understand why some of the "Black Towns" cropped up in these areas. To hopefully provide themselves a level of comfort and still be close enough to work and whites at the time must have liked that as they knew where their workers were but did not have to socialize or be around them outside of work. But do you think that resolved any tensions?

Do you think that the poor/working class whites often fingered blacks as a way of trying to prove some authority over them?

BTW - I was looking up Samuel Shepherd the other night and I came across a photo of his dad's house burning, but it is a stock photo for sale and has the company watermark on it so I didn't post it as a picture. If you'd like to see it you can find it at:

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-the-... (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Response to Teri's question for me

(view spoiler)[ I'm glad you asked me that, as I've been thinking a lot about what would motivate seemingly normal, sane people to behave in this manner. I think a lot of it is the bully mentality, that it is easier to pick on someone with less power than yourself when faced with one's own difficult circumstances . Again, many of the white tormentors were poor and undereducated themselves. As was discussed in a previous chapter, historically, poor whites were relegated to one of the lowest rungs of society, with not much more social standing than blacks. Perhaps exerting control and authority over blacks was a way for some of these white men to deal with their own feelings of emasculation within society.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about the psychological factors at play since we began reading this book. As a southerner and Christian myself, I just keep wondering how these members of a deeply religious Southern culture could rationalize their treatment of an entire group of people in this way. Sometimes I wonder if it was easier to continue to villainize blacks and to buy in to the stereotype of the overtly-violent, oversexed image of the black man than to see them as human, and the same as themselves, since they would then have to reconcile that truth to their faith and take ownership for the wrongs that had been committed against blacks as a race. I certainly don't think that would have been the individual thought process of any one particular person, but that the group-think may have been driven to continue to buy into the stereotypes, rather than deal with the immense guilt of knowing that this group of people had been grossly abused and mistreated. I think this is an ugly, but natural human response, to blame the victim rather than acknowledge one's own misdoings and take the hard steps to set right that which was wrong. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "As a resident of SC I am well aware of the Dixiecrats since Strom Thurmond was such a large presence in the state. In 1948, the Democratic Party splintered due to philosophical differ..."

Thurmond changed and left his segregationist ways and even hired the first black staffer. He ended up being liked by Democrats and Republicans and became very popular. So popular that no one wanted to run against him. Those who did lost by huge amounts. We have streets and buildings named after him. Lindsay Graham replaced him after he died.